Suozi you tend to make it to the later game by not being a threat. Any play group worth its salt won't target the player doing nothing (unless they're clearly putting together a combo) and will instead target the players that are pulling ahead. The idea is that you turn opponents on each other until they are weakened, or only one remains, then you drop a surprise win. Either by using their wincon against them, or dropping a damage doubler and dealing damage via one of the plethora of cards here. The strength of this shell is that you have so many routes to victory in any given game, and your opponents just have no idea. I run Gisela and wound reflection and it is not a problem at all to drop 20-30+ damage out of nowhere late game on the last player standing.

Control shouldn't present too much of a problem, and in fact should help the pilot of this deck. If you're playing intelligently, the control player should never be targeting you, they'll be targeting others.

My list is a bit different, but is quite strong in just about any meta (tho I've recently started powering down my list a bit), and my winrates are much higher than my fair share. A large part of this deck's performance is how you play it. Youll notice that the current version of this primer also sports two "I win button" combos for redundancies in metas where opponents are not playing things that are easy to use against them (like many cEDH combo wincons).

Also, I'm not sure why you think that this deck doesn't remove threats permanently. It packs a pretty strong removal/control suite, all fetchable by sunforger as well. You pretty much always have a response to anything.

alexjustdoit This list plays 4 total ways to remove artifacts and enchantments, 3 (?) ways to remove creatures, and 0 board wipes.

I would need to see it in action. None of the cards are particularly synergistic at first glance, and any playgroup worth its salt will target the player doing "nothing" but playing fast mana, tutors, pillow fort, and drawing an extra card with the monarch. Of the decks I routinely play against (Kenrith kingmaker, Muldrotha value, Yarok combo, Niv Mizzet Parun control, Niv Mizzet turns, Thrasios/Vial Smasher lands, Nath discard, and Ezuri elfball) I think this deck might be able to handle the elf and kingmaker decks. The others don't play all out aggro, and have tons of interaction for the few spells that matter. Marchesa would not overwhelm or "surprise win" against these decks. The players I play with incrementally accrue value, each unanswered piece snowballing on each other.

But again, maybe I'll see it in action one day.

Suozi I feel you, and I had a similar problem when I first started playing this deck. I'm not sure how competitive your meta is, but mine is not cedh, but ranges anywhere from tuned jank to very very tuned non-infinite combo decks. The biggest problem this deck has, is opposing incremental value and knowing when to respond to it imo. If you don't have the necessary answer when that incremental value reaches its tipping point into a win, you're a bit out of luck. But identifying that throughout a match and preparing for it is what you learn by playing this deck. It took me quite a while to really get a feel for what to do at certain stages of the game. The deathtouch/lifelink creatures I've found are actually very helpful in gaining back the chip dmg that you accrue throughout the game. That said, I still do struggle with playing against certain archetypes like very tuned aristocrat decks that have a crazy redundant value engine

Perhaps this has been discussed before, but how viable would a 5-color deck of a similar style be? Playing green and blue might increase your threat level, but you'd have access to: Propaganda, Reins of Power, Sudden Substitution, Collective Restraint, Gahiji, Honored One, Marisi, Breaker of the Coil, Illusionist's Gambit, Dissipation Field, Aura Thief, Narset's Reversal, Ohran Viper, Elephant Grass and more. Maybe O-Kagachi, Vengeful Kami as commander?

General_Pasta I have a 4c K&T deck that is designed similarly but for slightly more lower power level if you'd like to check it out. It hasn't gotten much playtesting as I built it not long before quarantine. It leans a bit more heavily into combat with things like Gahiji, Marisi, the Hunted Troll cycle, Sylvan Offering, Alliance of Arms, etc. List: Welcome to the Colosseum

I'm also currently theorycrafting a sans-G list with Ludevic/Tymna and a 5c list with Kenrith but they're still quite rough.

Hey All, I wanted to try to get back to what the origins of the deck were. I have meant to do this for some time. My only real excuse is that life has a tendency to get a little busy for me. I am a surgeon, and right now things are a little nuts. Here is a first attempt at returning to the heart of the deck. Thanks to everyone following and everyone who has made it what it is, and feel free to continue to explore the archetype here in the comments, even if I am not the most attentive curator of a list on this site.

Thanks, precociousapprentice

Hi, everyone! I've been thinking about this for a couple of days and I'd love some opinions on this. Is there any merit in running Boldwyr Heavyweights in an aikido style list? It's a big beater for 4 mana that draws out a threat from each opponents' deck, probably much scarier than an 8/8 trampler anyway.

My thought process here was that the Heavyweights' ability could be utilized to some benefit, either by escalating tension between other players, making them waste their removal on each other, or just increasing the opponents' combat strength, and through that, also the efficiency of your aikido spells. It being a relatively unimpressive 8/8 compared to the impactful creatures your opponents are getting could be played to a strength, I believe.

There are obvious problems in the fact that you don't control what the opponent finds. If they find something you can't deal with or just directly enable them to win, you're boned. In addition, despite being quite cheap for it's body, it still costs 4 mana, which does put a strain on your ability to respond to the immediate threats as well as any other obstacles that emerge before your next turn.

I've been told Boldwyr Heavyweights is a meme card since it was printed, but I wish to believe it's ability holds at least some potential. Any thoughts? :)

Wow, this deck has come a long way since the last time I was here. Congratz and well deserved! I also see some more basics in there (which I appreciate ;)) and no more Scorched Ruins and Lotus Vale. Is that a result of your new play group(s)? I was expecting to see Lotus Field though. Have you considered that one? You might also like the new Mangara, the Diplomat as a subtle pillowfort piece.

Anyway, keep up the good work :)!

precociousapprentice Are there reasons to include Sun Droplet instead of Delaying Shield? It seems that the Delaying Shield has more value, as it protects against commander damage. Or is it because of cards like Deflecting Palm and Comeuppance?

SurpriZe

Generally Delaying Shield is better especially if you also run Solemnity and/or Phyrexian Unlife.

Thanks for the answer, Abzkaban.

I was just curious about the reason precociousapprentice kept Sun Droplet and left Delaying Shield out, considering that Phyrexian Unlife is still in the mainboard. Seems a little counter-intuitive to me.

Why not run a Deflecting Swat instead of Mana Tithe or Lapse of Certainty?

Need to get one first BiggestTuna. Will be tuning further soon.

Where did you get the altered Marchesa? She is super cool and I need one.

Definitely going to try building this deck out. Love the premise and the theming and everything else. Fantastic job.

It is a Sandreline Mousse alter I had commissioned. She is amazing to work with.

foehammer41 I recently contacted her for an estimate on the alt art and she informed me she no longer does card art :(

That is a serious loss to the community. I have a full set of ABUR duals, my Queen Marchesa, and an Ugin the Spirit Dragon from her. All are amazing.

I want to make a queen marchesa spellslinger control edh deck, do you think it will work?

Why would you not be running the Mistveil Plains from your maybeboard in the 99 with how well it synergizes with the sunforger?

KayneMarco,

Personally, I've rarely used Mistveil in my iteration. His meta may be faster, which means tapped lands are a disadvantage. It's also a little conditional based on white permanents. I think it's got a decent ceiling, but a really low floor.

Has there been any notable new cards ever since war of the spark? I just found out this gem of a commender deck (and read MegaMatt13'sprimer as well), gosh, I'll never look at commander in quite the same way. I did want to make some political-ish sort of deck with sphinxes and riddles and pillowforts / redirection stuff, felt like a nice theme, sphinxes and riddles (aka, politics and decision making), but its nowhere near as good as an archetype as what I'm seeing in yours and the other one's deck, I'm sold.

What do you think about

1-Crown of Doom how is it as a card to make enemies waste time / mana and to help redirect attackers elsewhere? too unreliable? it seems very fun and in the theme, so I assume the issue is reliability?

2-Coercive Portal too expenssive for draw even if it works over many turns? / unreliable when the board state seems too good for opponenets? or since it kills creatures, it doesnt redirect them to enemies?

3-Azor's Gateway  ^Flip filtering into potential mana ramp for x cost spells?

4-Lithoform Engine it seem like it does a lot of nice things for reasonable cost. anything it could potentially replace?

5-Act of Authority as an enchantment and artifact removal? doesn't look like your list has things that would be high priority target, so, is it because of the speed and / or that it destroy stuff and might target you as well, as unlikely as it is?

6-Isolated Watchtower and Detection Tower/Arcane Lighthouse as utility lands?

I assume all of these are not there because they aren't as efficient as the alternatives currently in the deck, just wondering if they have ever been discussed before.

So what is the wincon when you get out Smothering Tithe + Underworld Breach with Wheel of Fortune where you can infinitely wheel? Do you just keep looping wheel and casting other cards until the boardstate is in you favor? Or is there something that I am not seeing.

maxmcnugget - you go until you draw into either an Angel's Grace or a tutor which you can use to get it. It states that you cannot lose this turn. Then you keep wheeling until everyone decks.

Or, yes, you basically play every permanent in your deck and generate basically infinite mana, and people get so tired of watching it that they scoop.

precociousapprentice - just noticed, you've got 2x Talisman of Indulgence in your list