I feel as though Outpost Siege and Ogre Battledriver would find a nice home in this deck. Gruul Ragebeast might also work giving creature removal
January 9, 2016 9:19 p.m.
Phaetion (from another thread), DiamondFlavor, and Dopeysboy,
Thanks so much for all the inputs! Here are some thoughts and questions:
- Perilous Forays: It's on my maybeboard but I can certainly be convinced it belongs in the mainboard. I was concerned about it as a 5-drop, and frankly thought I had better sac outlets and land-fetchs. What would y'all pull for it?
- In the Web of War, Ogre Battledriver, and Flame-Kin Zealot look GREAT, and I hadn't really taken a serious look at it before! I'd love some more haste effects, but I'm not sure yet if I really need the pump. And I'm especially concerned about the Web as a 5-drop too. What would y'all pull for them?
- The Lieges and Knight of New Alara are awesome and I looked hard at them. But I couldn't find room for much more pump at all, let alone 4 cards. What would you pull for them?
- I'm actually not a huge fan of Tolsimir Wolfblood. The pump is nice, but I don't have any untap effects, so he'd be really slow in this deck.
- I hadn't thought about Evolutionary Leap at all. With only 18 creatures in the deck, would it be consistent enough?
- Outpost Siege could be really cool, and is headed to my maybeboard for a serious look. any ideas what y'all might pull for it?
- I hadn't really looked at any of the fight cards except for Ezuri's Predation, but Gruul Ragebeast looks interesting. I've never played it, so how does it work when a bunch of 1/1s ETB, especially since it's not a "may" effect?
Thanks again, you've given me a TON to think about!
January 9, 2016 11:49 p.m.
thunderclap22 says... #4
The fact that there are so few creatures makes Evolutionary Leap that much better since you're guaranteed to hit one and any that you do have should be your silver bullets/utility
January 10, 2016 2:26 a.m.
thunderclap22,
OK that makes sense; thanks!
DiamondFlavor and thunderclap22,
I kind of think of Evolutionary Leap as a Harmonize on a sac outlet stick. And I like my current draw cards better than either Harmonize ("draw three cards for ") or Evolutionary Leap ("draw three creatures for and three dudes"). Plus, I wasn't excited about the risk of sending good Enchantments and Sorceries to the bottom of the deck in the hunt for good Creatures.
Focusing on it as a sac' outlet though, makes the decision easy. Evolutionary Leap ("draw a creature for and a dude") is almost always going to be better for this deck than Shivan Harvest ("kill a land for and a dude").
Thanks much!
January 10, 2016 6:45 a.m.
DiamondFlavor says... #6
Think of Perilous Forays similarly. Your most accessible resource with Hazezon should be your tokens, which can be used as fodder to set yourself up for the eventual win. With some of the pumps and flicker effects you've included, it's pretty reasonable to actually use several batches of tokens just to dominate the board and not really concern yourself with attacking. In this case, both Forays are Leap are very potent because one you've paid the initial cost, it's basically "(1)/(G), Sacrifice a creature:" to dig for a card out of your deck. If you dig out your key creatures and enough lands, you'll be more likely to draw those enchantments and sorceries through other means.
Forays is particularly good here because Hazezon counts your lands. It's a pretty reasonable play to drop Forays, next turn Hazezon, and the turn after sacrifice 5-7 guys and then flick him for essentially double the previous amount.
I think, if you're considering the total amount of sac outlets, you could reasonably cut Fanatical Devotion or Martyr's Cause. If those cards are specifically good to your playgroup, you could cut something else.
I would actually recommend keeping Shivan Harvest. With the access you presumably have to tokens, the ability to pop non-basic lands is brutal. It can shut down problem lands and also punish greedy mana-bases.
I think generally, you can cut some of the weaker and/or one-use cards: Explore, Krosan Tusker, Tilling Treefolk (almost always worse than Life from the Loam, Fervor and/or Hammer of Purphoros, Rite of the Raging Storm (giving your opponents free creatures is sketchy, think Skullclamp), Windborn Muse (easier/better to just set up blockers usually), Reconnaissance (it's a great card but I think you'll usually swing with tokens, which are disposable), Sosuke, Son of Seshiro (psuedo-deathtouch is nice, but I don't know if it justifies a 4-drop that doesn't do much else).
I'm not thrilled about the one-use flickers, Cloudshift and Flicker, but I'm drawing a blank for more re-usable suggestions. Also note that when you flick Hazezon, you do trigger his "leaves the battlefield" ability, so it's not necessarily worth flicking him unless you are out of tokens. I would probably try some kind of Sun Titan package with Flickerwisp, Stonecloaker, and Whitemane Lion. With all the sac effects in the deck, it's pretty easy to re-use those guys with Sun Titan. If you want me to expound on this just let me know, I'm not sure I explained my point very well.
Finally, I'm not thrilled about the Descent of Dragons / Mogg Infestation cluster. Short of casting with Purphoros out, it seems like you're upgrading your board but still leaving it open to board-wipe. And tokens are the easiest thing to wipe, since they fold to Ratchet Bomb, Gaze of Granite, Steel Hellkite, etc. on top of the normal Wrath effects. I think it would usually be better to focus on using your Sand Warriors, protecting your board (Boros Charm, Rootborn Defenses, Faith's Reward), or just building up than to go for the full-reset. Just my opinion there, I haven't considered the applications thoroughly.
Let me know if you have any questions, I'm always happy to help!
January 10, 2016 12:22 p.m.
Just a couple things. Hazazon has a delayed trigger so it can be used multiple times. Say he leaves the battlefield six times before your next turn. It would trigger six times for making tokens on your upkeep.
I don't get why you have land recursion items unless you have land destruction in your meta.
Go harder to the paint on the ramp.
Wood Elves, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Farhaven Elf.
Think about Akroma's Memorial, Coat of Arms
January 10, 2016 4:59 p.m.
DiamondFlavor and DiamondFlavor,
Ok, I'm convinced on Perilous Forays :-)
DiamondFlavor,
I really appreciate your thoughtful comments! I need to think long and hard about your suggestions, but here's some quick commnets:
- We get a bunch of boardwipes in my group, so Fanatical Devotion for recovery and/or Goblin Sharpshooter as a rattlesnake are pretty much mandatory. Martyr's Cause was a recent add to make sure I had enough sac outlets to get rid of Haz' and I'm not wedded to it at all.
- Thanks for the thoughts on Shivan Harvest ... I stumbled across it and it looked great, but I've never played it IRL. I appreciate the perspective on how it plays on an actual table!
- I really appreciate your thoughts on potential cuts and agree with lots of them. I'm curious though about your thoughts on dropping the Haste granters. I was thinking Haz' would want to get Hazezon's Sand Warriors swinging as fast as possible ... has that not been your experience? I'm also resistant to losing the Vigilance effect of Reconnaissance (so powerful in my group, just because of the need to survive through three or more Combat phases) and the Deathtouch effect of Sosuke, Son of Seshiro (because there's nothing quite like a little Deathtouch to turn a horde of chump blockers into a horde of bad-asses).
- I understand about Hazezon's LTB activation when he flickers out, but thanks for mentioning in case I didn't :-) The idea on flickering Hazezon is to get as many ETBs as possible out of him, for a double or triple Sand Warrior drop on the next turn. I like the idea of some Sun Titan ... I had disregarded him early-on because I wasn't sure how many targets he'd have, and then forgot to come back to him. He's definitely worth a relook though, and I just added him to my maybeboard. Along those lines though, I see Stonecloaker and Whitemane Lion as a sac' outlet for Haz' which avoids commander tax, rather than a replacement for flicker-Haz' effects.
- Descent of Dragons is staying for sure. Partly because the Timmy in me just can't deny the card, but mostly because it's proven too valuable for me too often ... it's a pump, evasion, and super-fun removal (there's just nothing like turning an opponent's huge Eldrazi into a 4/4) all in one.
- I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on Faith's Reward vs. Fanatical Devotion. They fill the same role (boardwipe recovery) for me, but Fanatical Devotion seems better. What am I missing?
SaintHipster,
Yeah I know about Hazezon's triggers ... I may need to rework the deck description if my intent to abuse those triggers wasn't obvious :-)
The land recursion is about adding extra lands (so Haz' can get more Sand Warriors) and incidentally getting multiple Landfalls for token generation. For example, casting or flickering a Tilling Treefolk to fetch a Myriad Landscape and a Terramorphic Expanse = 3 extra lands and 5 Landfalls along the way. It's also good for getting Homeward Path back, as treason effects are a big threat to the deck.
I run dorks with Rith because she wants colored permanents. But Haz' wants lands, so while I might consider running some mana rocks for acceleration, I don't understand why I'd want to put dorks on the table (please note I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that I don't understand). Could you expand on that?
Akroma's Memorial and Coat of Arms are great cards, but unfortunately not in my meta. For whatever reason, the Memorial attracts Planswalker-level hate, and I don't think I've ever seen one last long enough to make an impact. It's got great flavor text though1 :-) And there are a bunch of other tribal decks in my group (and really, anywhere I've ever played), so the Coat is just way to much of a group hug effect for my taste.
January 10, 2016 11:25 p.m.
Oops, meant to say DiamondFlavor and Phaetion on the first bit there!
January 10, 2016 11:47 p.m.
thunderclap22 says... #10
Also Hero of Bladehold, Knight of New Alara, Mirror Entity, Xenagos the reveler, titanic ultimatum, mirrari's wake and akroma's memorial are definitely cards you should consider. I've built a Hazezon deck and those cards were pretty important pieces(some more than others of course)
January 11, 2016 12:03 a.m.
thunderclap22,
FYI, if you enclose card names in 2 sets of square brackets, it automatically adds a link, which is very nice for any readers who are not familiar with the cards. The little card icon (at the top of any comment editing window) makes it easy if you're typing on a phone and your keyboard buries the square brackets. There are lots more tips at the Formatting tips link, on the bottom of almost every page on TappedOut.
I happen to be familiar with all the cards you mention though, and here are some thoughts:
- Hero of Bladehold is a good card in a lot of decks, and a great card in a Boros deck with a bunch of Soldier synergy, and doublestrike/extra combat turns. For this deck though she's just a weak pump (compare for example to Intangible Virtue or Spear of Heliod) and slow token generator. Great art though! :-)
- You might have missed my comment above: "The Lieges and Knight of New Alara are awesome and I looked hard at them. But I couldn't find room for much more pump at all, let alone 4 cards. What would you pull for them?"
- Mirror Entity is really interesting; thanks! I had dismissed it early on, because I didn't need the "all creatures type" piece. But I forgot that it's also a really good "until end of turn" pump. I think a direct damage X-spell would be better for this deck, but I'll give it a hard look.
- How do you use Xenagos, the Reveler? I love the card in my Rith deck, where his +1 makes him an amazing mana dork. But I'm not sure how I'd use him in this deck. I'd appreciate your additional thoughts here!
- Titanic Ultimatum is another that's good for a lot of decks, great for some, and not what this deck is looking for. As I mentioned in the deck description, I'm looking for less pump than your average Hazezon.
- Mirari's Wake is a great card in almost any deck that can run it, and I have no idea why I didn't look at it for this one. Thanks much!
- You also might have missed my comment above on Akroma's Memorial, where I mention it's a great card, "but unfortunately not in my meta. For whatever reason, the Memorial attracts Planswalker-level hate, and I don't think I've ever seen one last long enough to make an impact. It's got great flavor text though! :-)"
January 11, 2016 6:24 a.m.
DiamondFlavor,
I take it back about Descent of Dragons. It's out :-)
January 11, 2016 11:52 a.m.
Matrixxx999 says... #13
- Aura of Silence
- You have a lot of enchantments - Sphere of Safety
- Awakening Zone - good token generator and ramp
- You have a lot of sac outlets - you could add Fecundity and it plays well with Awakening Zone
- Nature's Claim instead of Hull Breach
- Crop Rotation - for additional Landfall and land fixing, for example - sac Plains, put Terramorphic Expanse or even Myriad Landscape, activate it, put up to two additional lands, if you play it on instant before your turn, everything will be untapped on your turn.
- High Market - for more sac
January 11, 2016 10:14 p.m.
HarmonicNecrotic says... #14
I am responding to a comment left on my page as a comment here because I do not know if there is a more direct way. Unfortunately most of the cards Id recommend seem to be out of your set budget. Earthcraft, gaea's cradle, chord of calling. I'm more of a 100% build with zero budget. I got into edh near the very start off a solid legacy collection so i kinda had all the staples b4 they were expensive. That being said there are a few things. I don't think you are playing enough lands that go to your graveyard to play the land to play or hand cards you have. I play a full sweat of fetchlands and even then my life from the loam can be dead or get me one card. Rain of thorns is super good specially on a budget where woodfall primus isn't an option. failing that at least acidic slime. from the cards I saw you are not running the op lands required for the heavy land tutor sweat you are running. Without cards like high market, gaea's cradle, sera sanctum, and valakut you would be better off with staple ramp spells/creatures. Wood elves, sakura, tribe elder, farhaven elf, rampant growth, and even diligent farmhand to name a few. Also lacking the heavy tutor sweat your colors provide maybe cut a bit of ramp as with 16+ you run the risk of ramp flooding with no heavy hitting draw power to back it up. This is excluding the 2 ramp lands your colors afford you krosan verge and myriad landscape. Cut krosan tusker for that cultiv and kodama r are just better this will open up some removal slots for you. Other than that some basic budget addition: emeria shepherd, Boundless realms, literally any wraths (you NEEEEED some I recommend phyrexian rebirth, blasphemous act, good old wrath of god just something.), return to dust. If you want more I'll be working on my edh decks tonight to make sure both data on them and the deck lists themselves are more accessible.
January 12, 2016 12:22 a.m.
Matrixxx999,
Thanks much for the comments!
- Aura of Silence is interesting. I've pulled the pillow fort package, but I think the card will go in my eventual Gahiji deck for sure!
- I hadn't realized how many Enchantments I've piled up until you pointed it out. I'll definitely give Sphere of Safety a look.
- Awakening Zone is decent, though I've always found it a little slow. I'm avoiding it in this deck though for flavor reasons.
- Fecundity is a great card in lots of metas, but unfortunately not in mine. Between the token decks and the Merens, it's just way too much group hug.
- Nature's Claim is great. I've no idea why I've never seen it before.
- Crop Rotation looks great too. Love that it can fetch any Land. What would you pull to put it in?
- High Market's already in there. It's seriously my favorite sac' outlet in this deck, because I can always fetch it.
Thanks again!
January 12, 2016 8 a.m.
HarmonicNecrotic,
Thanks much; I really appreciate your thoughts and insights on playing Hazezon!
- You mentioned Chord of Calling ... did you mean a different card?
- I'll take a look at Rain of Thorns, but there are a lot of Planeswalkers in my group so I generally like the "exile target permanent"-type cards better.
- I've got High Market by the way, but yeah, it, Homeward Path and Ghost Town are really the only Lands I'm looking for besides the fetches. One thing that may not be obvious though is that I'm looking for Landfall triggers as much as I'm looking for actual ramp. Still, I appreciate your point that land recursion may not be the best approach. I'm not interested in mana dorks though. I run them with Rith, the Awakener because she cares about colored permanents, but there are too many board wipes in my meta to make dork ramp a viable strategy with Hazezon.
- That's a good call on Krosan Verge; thanks! I already had the Myriad Landscape by the way.
- And I agree on cutting back the ramp a little.
- Great call on the Emeria Shepherd. I had Boundless Realms on my maybeboard, but will take a harder look at pulling it in.
- I know my removal is a little light, but there are so many boardwipes in my group (of which I'm usually the target), I find I only very rarely want any more. I will probably add some more spot removal later.
Thanks again!
P.S. If you enclose card names in 2 sets of square brackets, it automatically adds a link to the card, which is very nice for any readers who are not familiar with them. The little card icon (at the top of any comment editing window) makes it easy if you're typing on a phone and your keyboard buries the square brackets. There are lots more tips at the Formatting tips link too, on the bottom of almost every page on TappedOut.
January 12, 2016 8:45 a.m.
So, you asked for some feedback.
One obvious omission here is Vicious Shadows, which combined with your large token production and a sac outlets can kill a table very quickly.
Ghostway is another good flicker effect that you're missing, as is Restoration Angel. Cloudstone Curio is always good in a deck who wants to abuse ETB effects.
Ashnod's Altar is a card that is broken in any deck that can produce a ton of tokens. Not only you can power big spells with it, you can also repeatedly sac the tokens and commander and re-cast him to trigger more ETB effects. I think it also goes infinite with your commander and Nim Deathmantle.
Food Chain also fills a similar role to the Altar, but it's not as broken here as it is in Prossh decks.
January 12, 2016 1:05 p.m.
Matrixxx999 says... #18
It is hard to say what to cut.
Maybe you could cut some very slow cards:
Also Naya Charm could be the candidate for cut
January 12, 2016 4:22 p.m.
I agree with Badaro on Food Chain and Ashnod's Altar, Food Chain especially. You can basically sacrifice Hazezon Tamar and cast him again for the commander tax, meaning you get a bunch of tokens on your next upkeep. You can then sacrifice all of those to repeat the process, triggering Aura Shards or drawing tons of cards from Skullclamp.
Also, get a Doubling Season ASAP. Not only does it go with Hazezon Tamar, it allows you to do busted things with planeswalkers. It's the card to have in this deck.
January 12, 2016 6:21 p.m.
Badaro,
Thanks so much for the review; you've got a great eye for ETB effects and I really appreciate your perspective!
- I like Vicious Shadows for sure. I use it as a rattlesnake in my Rith, the Awakener deck every now and then, but it's a little too high CMC for there ... I hadn't even thought about it here, but it'd be great!
- I like Ghostway as well (it was already on my maybeboard), as a complement to Sudden Disappearance. I'd love to flicker the board out, drop Haz' in for an ETB or two, sac' him, and then drop the the board back in. Will see if I can make it happen :-)
- I'm putting the Angel and Curio on my maybeboard for now ... I'll probably only add them if I go full-on into the ETB theme.
- I love Ashnod's Altar, but kinda like Mana Echoes, sometimes it's just a "win more" in a token deck :-) I'll add it with an X-spell package if I need the additional finisher(s).
- I've never really looked at Nim Deathmantle ... it's totally intriguing and thanks much for pointing it out!
- Maybe it's just the art, but if I need colored in a token deck, I prefer Phyrexian Altar to Food Chain :-)
Thanks again!
January 12, 2016 8:43 p.m.
sylvannos,
Oh, I get it. Derp. Yeah, that's awesome with Hazelzon (I know about sac'ing Haz', but for whatever reason, I wasn't thinking about the extra mana I'd get from him from Food Chain)
And yeah, I'd love to have a Doubling Season, and it's certainly the "Want" list on my binder! (There's really no way I can ever build this deck IRL unless I trade for Haz' ... which kind of opens up some other high-priced cards for consideration as well)
Thanks!
January 12, 2016 8:46 p.m. Edited.
Matrixxx999,
Thanks tons for your thoughts on cuts. I love the versatility of Verdant Confluence and Naya Charm. And I REALLY love the additional token drop (drops, if paired with ETB abusers) of Chancellor of the Forge, especially right after Hazelzon's Sand Warriors arrive. But sometimes love makes us blind, and I hadn't really taken a serious look at their negatives until you mentioned them.
Thanks again!
January 12, 2016 8:54 p.m.
Jeremiah_Von_Pringleton says... #23
I'd drop Fires of Yavimaya for Urabrask the Hidden.
January 13, 2016 11:32 a.m.
Jeremiah_Von_Pringleton,
Could you expand a little more on why you're an Urabrask the Hidden fan? I've never seriously looked at him and I'd appreciate your thoughts!
I normally build on a super-tight budget, and was always quick to dismiss him with surface-only analysis like "He costs 1.6x the mana and 42x more money than Fires of Yavimaya, plus he dies easier ... how could he possibly be worth it?" :-)
Thanks!
January 13, 2016 4:26 p.m.
darthskat,
I wanted to pull you into this discussion with Jeremiah_Von_Pringleton too. I recall you having some pretty strong negative opinions on Urabrask the Hidden over at The Golden Company, and I was wondering what kind of situations/metas are good for him vs. which ones lead to "sighs and slumped shoulders" :-)
Thanks much!
DiamondFlavor says... #1
Perilous Forays and Evolutionary Leap seem like staples here.
January 9, 2016 8:50 p.m.