thunderclap22,
I got to thinking about Blade of Selves
+
Hero of Bladehold
, and while I'm still not convinced the Hero would be great for this deck, I think she's worth a deeper look. Thanks again!
January 14, 2016 6:12 a.m. Edited.
Jeremiah_Von_Pringleton says... #3
I see you point on Urabrask the Hidden, at least for this deck. He may be too expensive if you want to be as fast as possible. Also Blade of Selves + Hero of Bladehold doesn't work together. "Although the tokens enter the battlefield attacking, they were never declared as attackers. Abilities that trigger whenever a creature attacks wont trigger, including the myriad ability of the tokens. If there any costs to have a creature attack, those costs wont apply to the tokens."
January 14, 2016 9:32 a.m.
Jeremiah_Von_Pringleton,
Oh that makes sense. Thanks tons!
January 14, 2016 9:43 a.m.
SnottNormal says... #5
I dig your take on Hazezon! A few wordy thoughts:
I've never tried to go so heavily on the flickering route, but the upcoming Eldrazi Displacer has had me giving it some more thought. How have the one-shot flicker spells been working out? Otherworldly Journey costs one more than Cloudshift but has a little extra utility built in if you really, really need a mini-Fog.
I've had little luck with Fanatical Devotion outside of doofy Saffi Eriksdotter builds with few other sack outlet options. If you don't like Ashnod's Altar as an alternative, have you tried Spawning Pit?
I'm in Urabrask the Hidden's camp for my own build, but I agree that he might not be worth it here. Universal haste is worth more to me, since I go heavy on the landfall token plan. Losing the ability to turn off haste for everyone else is sad, but Lovisa Coldeyes has a much bigger payoff with your quadrillions of tokens. On a haste note, I've had much better luck with Anger than Fervor. It doubles as a speedbump that occasionally gets in for a few damage.
Might a smaller ramp spell help you more than Sylvan Scrying? You lose the utility of finding nonbasics, but something like Explore can help a lot in the early game (and it cantrips). Natural Connection helps early and can give you an instant landfall trigger?
I'm glad Perilous Forays has already come up, because it is so, so entertaining in this deck. Also Shields of Velis Vel is pretty much the cutest thing ever when it works out.
January 14, 2016 2:10 p.m.
SnottNormal,
Thanks so much for the kudos and your thoughts!
I'm liking the one-shots so far, but I feel the deck is still a long way from settled, so we'll see. Because the costs are so low, they've been good value at about any point in the game, either for slipping in an extra ETB with Haz' or the Chancellor, or for protecting high value dudes like Omnath and Purphoros.
I'll take a look at the Otherworldly Journey. On first glance I think Flicker is probably better, since I can bring the card back in any phase, but I do like those +1/+1 counters, so not sure.
Great call on the Spawning Pit! I pulled one from my Rith deck long ago for flavor reasons, and had totally forgotten about the card since then. Thanks much for reminding me of it!
I've been on the fence with Anger, but I like the idea of a re-look. I'd really like to run both :-)
I'm still fiddling with the ramp package, but I think I'm going to end up keeping the Sylvan Scrying. The ability to fetch any land is just awesome ... High Market and Homeward Path before casting Haz', and the fetches at any point (for multiple landfall triggers). I had Explore earlier BTW, but found it just little too inconsistent. Great early, but frustrating once I've thinned out the deck. Natural Connection could be great though ... and I'm embarrassed that I'd totally not realized it was an Instant!
And yeah, I've been very pleased with both the Forays and the Shields!
Thanks again!
January 16, 2016 1:05 p.m.
I don't believe you are reading Reconnaissance correctly. If you use the ability, it prevents the damage, even if its end of combat.
Really cool deck idea though
January 18, 2016 3:51 a.m.
-Akhlys-,
I was unsure about Reconnaissance too at first, but shaistyone and Jeremiah_Von_Pringleton set me straight a while back over on The Lords of Strife .
The key rulings are 511.2 (which allows players to activate abilities during the End of Combat step, after the Combat Damage step) and 615.4 (players can't "go back in time" and change something -- like damage -- that's already happened).
Cool, huh?
Thanks for the compliment, too!
January 18, 2016 4:06 a.m. Edited.
Alrighty, lets see:
Straight off the bat, I'm not a fan of Reconnaissance. While i gives pseudo vigilance, I think that you generally shouldn't be attacking unless here is an opening to begin with. And at that point, you want to maximize throughput. Because a dead player is one you don't have to worry about. So I would either look into Collective Blessing or Cathars' Crusade to just give you outright value.
Sudden Disappearance feels slow and clunky. The fact that it's a sorcery and cost's 6 makes it feel a bit unplayable. I know this one is a bit more expensive but if you can get your hands on an Eldrazi Displacer you will be in clear value town.
I think I'm more of a fan of Avenger of Zendikar over both Rampaging Baloths and Chancellor of the Forge. I think the value you will generate from an avenger in a jam is more than what you'll get from either of the other two. Token decks usually find themselves looking down a lot of wrath effects. That being said, in this build I would lean more towards cutting Baloths.
Lovisa Coldeyes feels underwhelming. Again, you want a buff to be either permanent (i.e. in the form of counters) or you wnat it to be global (in the form of Gaea's Anthem, etc.) Lovisa is ok and I get full of flavour but underwhelming, especally since she will just eat removal. Even Gahiji, Honored One feels stronger, especially as he gives your opponents reason to attack each other over you.
Replace Sylvan Scrying with Reap and Sow. You have enough lands that you shouldn't get mana screwed and while RaS cost's more, it actually ramps. Not to mention it scales better late game.
I would highly recommend making space for Kessig Wolf Run. It doesn't take up a nonland spot and gives you an out instead of going wide. Even if you just want to buff one token and swing, it's especially good and hurting planeswalkers through chump blockers.
I have to say, I don't really like Mana Echoes here. You get the tokens in your upkeep so unless you have an instant speed mana sink, the majority of mana generated from this card will be unusable. I would instead replace it with Sakura-Tribe Elder. It's a creature for Evolutionary Leap, it searches from lands which thins the deck and it has a wombo combo with Sun Titan AND Emeria Shepherd.
You should be running Swords to Plowshares (even if it is a bit more expensive, it's a must). I would also recommend at least one wrath effect for the deck. I personally like Rout as you can cast it for instant speed if you need to and it normally only costs 1 more than Wrath of God.
I hope this gives you a good starting point, I will have a bit more of a think and see what I can come up with. My go to is more card draw / ramp / tutors with most decks but when dealing with a 75% deck, it can be slightly trickier.
On the whole though, your list looks fairly solid to begin with so you should be happy.
January 20, 2016 9:13 a.m.
enpc,
Thanks tons; I really appreciate your perspectives!
- I love Reconnaissance, but fully acknowledge that sometimes love makes us blind :-) ... I'll give it a hard relook.
- I'm frankly not sure what to do with Sudden Disappearance. I originally put it in with the idea of casting it after Haz's Sand Warriors showed up ... either as a finisher (if I had Purphoros or Impact Tremors out) or as a way to get another batch of Sand Warriors (flicker the current batch out, ETB Haz' a couple times then sac' or return him to hand, then flicker the current batch back in). And yeah, that's pretty janky. But I looked hard at Eldrazi Displacer, and I'm not sure he's worth having to run some reliable colorless. And despite a ton of playtesting, I've never actually drawn the Sudden Disappearance, so I have no real idea how it plays in a goldfish bowl, let alone on a real table! Bottom line: Another one worth a deeper look, so thanks!
- Good comments on the Avenger of Zendikar. I had pretty much blown off the card entirely (I rarely like what a 7-drop does to my curve, and I just hate getting a Landfall after I've already sac'd or chump-blocked or whatever all the associated Plants). However, with all flicker/return to hand effects I'm running, it might be a really good fit in this deck.
- Good comments too, on Lovisa Coldeyes. I love the flavor, and was a little blind to the overall quality ... or lack of :-) If I drop her it'll probably be for a haste anthem. Or maybe a Vexing Shusher, to help make sure Haz' can actually hit the table.
- Great call on Reap and Sow and Kessig Wolf Run. Love 'em both.
- I enjoy running an infinite combo or two whenever I can, because it's just so cool when one happens to work out. Mana Echoes + a couple X-spells is my essentially-infinite combo for this deck. I can reliably drop 20-30 Sand Warriors, and there's just nothing quite like casting Aurelia's Fury or Comet Storm with an X of 400-900! That said, the combos are what I pull whenever I need to sideboard in some gravehate or whatever.
- Good point on more removal. I almost always run low there early-on, and increase it over time. At this point, it feels like I probably need more draw than removal, but this is another spot where I really appreciate your perspective!
Again, thanks TONS!
January 21, 2016 1:04 a.m. Edited.
For card draw, I really like Eidolon of Blossoms. You have more than enough enchantments that you can make it work and since you run quite a few sac outlets, you could easily incorporate Gift of Immortality which not only 1) works with your commander, 2) provides card advantage with Eidolon of Blossoms for recurring card advantage and 3) combos with Sun Titan and Goblin Bombardment for infinite damage.
Also, you should add Tectonic Edge / Strip Mine / both - it's always good to have a bit of LD under the belt (I know you have Shivan Harvest but more is not a bad thing)
January 21, 2016 1:24 a.m.
enpc,
Oh I really like the Eidolon of Blossoms. I've no idea why I've never seriously looked at the card before, but I think it'd be great here and probably in my Rith deck as well.
I'm running Ghost Quarter already, but yeah, a little more targeted LD could be nice.
January 21, 2016 1:52 a.m.
I have to say, I'm not much of a fan of Ghost Quarter in EDH. Sure, people don't get as butthurt when you destroy their lands but you put your self at a disadvantage as you end up 1 land down.
And yeah, Eidolon is broken as hell.
January 21, 2016 2:02 a.m.
enpc,
For me, GQ isn't about being polite, it's the ability to target myself in a pinch. That's been handy enough often enough to make it part of my 'standard' utility land package. That said though, I may not even need that capaility in this deck, so will take a hard look here too.
Again and again: Thanks!
January 21, 2016 2:21 a.m.
Primal Vigor, Massive Raid, Mob Justice, Shared Animosity. I don't know where you stand on these cards, but I figured I would add them.
January 22, 2016 10:08 p.m.
Monsmtg,
Thanks much for your thoughts!
Primal Vigor is a great card, but it's way too much of a group hug card for my meta. Shared Animosity is great too, but 'm not really looking for additional pumps. However, I really appreciate you pointing out Massive Raid and Mob Justice ... I've added to my maybeboard and they'll likely be the first adds if I need additional direct damage effects.
Thanks again!
January 24, 2016 10:26 p.m.
Always love to help. It saddens me how few people know about mob justice. Internally whenever I play it I hear a parody of 'rock lobster' (da-da).
January 24, 2016 11:52 p.m.
CosmicTurban says... #18
Nice deck, I like this style. Have you considered using Vandalblast as an alternative form of artifact removal? Also, since your creatures are pretty much all little guys, you might benefit greatly against opponents who play a lot of big bombs by considering Aligned Hedron Network. You could even cast it when you've got out your Avenger of Zendikar and then accidentally destroy it and generate 8 billion tokens when he re-enters. Rootborn Defenses could also help you out by protecting your dudes from board wipes. Same goes for Boros Charm and Battlefield Medic. Just options to play around with if you find some common obstacle that the deck might run into depending on what kind of decks your playgroup use.
January 28, 2016 8:43 p.m.
I just thought of a new one I run in my goblin deck: Raid Bombardment. Also I know it doesn't make the right kind of tokens, but Krenko, Mob Boss is nice with the amount of ETB you have.
January 28, 2016 8:52 p.m.
CosmicTurban says... #20
OH! Also, Cathars' Crusade or Flameshadow Conjuring? Flameshadow is colour specific, but it's cheaper than Minion Reflector. Also since you asked what the two weakest cards in deck are, I'd have to say Cloudshift and Yavimaya Elder since you already have so many better versions of both. Though I'd interchange the elder with any 1 ramp spell, since he can still block and be sacrificed. The only reason I pick him out of the crowd is that it costs 5 total to get 2 lands into hand instead of onto the battlefield.
January 28, 2016 8:59 p.m.
Very nice, I like what I see!
I'd have to take a closer look to make any kind of serious suggestions (at work right now), but to piggy back off of the suggestion for Flameshadow Conjuring, might I suggest a possible Sunglasses of Urza to go with it?
I know I'm now thinking of adding that to my Hazezon deck, HMS Tamar.
January 29, 2016 6:25 p.m.
CosmicTurban,
That's a good idea on the Vandalblast ... I've been super-pleased with Aura Shards in my Rith deck, but I'm not sure it's such a good fit here.
I love the idea of Aligned Hedron Network to get additional ETB effects. I've seen that with O-ring, but never thought about it with the Netwrok. Definitely worth a look for the mainboard, and it's great in my sideboard no matter what.
I had looked at Rootborn Defenses early on, as a potential extra ETB+sac' for Haz' ... it's probably worth a relook again for protection.
And yeah, I've started running Boros Charm with Rith and love it. May find a home here too :-)
Battlefield Medic is kind of interesting. I've used Field Surgeon in previous decks, but hadn't ever looked at the Medic. Will keep it in mind.
Cathars' Crusade is more pump than I want in this deck, but's it's an amazing card for sure.
Flameshadow Conjuring is great, and going in for sure!
Thanks again!
February 1, 2016 1:49 p.m.
Monsmtg,
I know Massive Raid is a harder to cast, but I like it better than the Raid Bombardment. The bombardment seems just a little too conditional for my tastes, plus it's Enchantment speed.
Yeah, Krenko would be insane after Chancellor of the Forge or a Shields of Velis Vel targeting myself. Worth a look for sure!
February 1, 2016 3:11 p.m.
ardilly,
Thanks for the kudos! I'm not sure the deck needs Red mana enough to justify a slot for Sunglasses of Urza. If you like it though, you might also look at Skyshroud Elf. It's not as survivable as the Sunglasses (in most metas anyway), but is cheaper to cast and more versatile.
February 1, 2016 6:34 p.m.
CosmicTurban,
I wanted to circle back with you on Yavimaya Elder and Cloudshift.
I think I like the Elder more than you do (probably because of the "Draw a card" piece), but I totally get where you're coming from. I keep messing with the amount of recursion in the deck, and I think there's some threshold point ... above a certain level of recursion and the Elder is decent, but below that he's just a clunky Kodama's Reach + Heart Warden!
But can you expand on the Cloudshift? I wish it was repeatable, but the Instant speed, cheap cost, and coming right back (rather than waiting until end of turn) had me thinking it was one of my best #ETB_Abuse cards. What am I missing?
Thanks tons!
darthskat says... #1
My game really only starts when I've casted Hazezon (and hopefully sac'd) last turn. Now on my untap step I have tons of mana and a handful of dorks. I love windmill slamming a card to give them haste, then another to pump, then another to give trample.
Lets assume i have 9 mana (and therfore 9 dorks) on my untap step. My god hand includes kicking Goblin Bushwhacker, now I have 10 warriors and they all have haste and +1/0 for RR. Then I'll cast Shared Animosity and let the rest of the soon to be dead players read the card and watch them slowly realize what's coming, now I have 10 warriors with haste and +10/0 for 2RRR. I can see some hope in the eyes of one or two of my opponents with blockers so before I declare attack step I cast Triumph of the Hordes and watch them scoop before I finish my sentence. (That's 10 11/2 warriors with haste, trample and infect for 4RRRGG).
Cold eyes does two of those three for the same mana as Urabrask. So in my mind (for my very specific build) he's just not worth it and I will be cutting him eventually.
January 13, 2016 7:53 p.m.