Stephenburgin106

I whole heartedly appreciate your worry for my manabase, but I don't see how it can "look better" when I didn't touch it at all. The comment I made right above yours states "..The manabase will need to be reworked to match the changes made to the deck soon, just didn't have the time to do it today".

As far as Pulse of Murasa goes it's all explained in the update. The jist of it was that since I have added Mindwrack and Prodder there are gonna be a decent amouny of cards going into the bin and I need to be able to get back whatever it may be: removal, walkers, creatures, or hell even lands if I am desperate. I love K. Command, trust me I even stated it is one of my all time favorite Magic cards, but in the current state of the deck I feel that Pulse helps more. The lifegain is an after thought, sure it helps against more aggressive decks and it helps mitigate any possible life loss from the demon, but the main purpose is to be able to get back whatever I want from the grave yard.

I do agree that I am light on answers, but what would you suggest? The only real solution I see here is dropping Transgress for more removal instead, and just fit it in the SB. I guess I could cut Fiery Impulse for more catch all removal like Ultimate Price, but that's it. If I cut anything else I am losing creatures, walkers, or card advantage. I have considered white, but it isn't happening. I want to play Jund, which unfortunately does not include white :)

I am planning on making an Eaper or U/W control deck too since I wanna use Ojutai and baby Jace, but white is not gonna come in this deck for however big of a hi derence that may be.

I know this sounds kinda sketchy, but I have been trying to brew a jund deck for standard which tries to use The Gitrog Monster and Molten Vortex. I was thinking about this in modern first for a jank combo deck with seismic assault, cantrips, and then after you resolve the toad and the enchantment, do things like thin your deck from spells with things like surgical extraction. As you might imagine, that didn't work out, but in standard, throwing shocks and drawing cards are sweet. Plus, the toad itself is a pretty sweet threat, and works well with your evolving wilds.

But it might be too jank for competitive standard.

justtesting2002

I just don't like the frog. I know some people are balls out for it, but I just don't see it. I have always felt that he is a build around card, or in the very least needs the appropriate synergy in deck. The problem I have with that is that he belongs in a sort of rampish style deck, but at that point I would rather play G/R ramp which is just flat out better. The frog definitely has potential, just not the style I am into I guess.

I just feel that for a midrange deck, you can have a better threat than Mindwrack Demon, which does help with your den protectors and dwellers, but just feels like a pile of stats kind of. I also think that Deathmist Raptor might deserve a slot for your grindy deck. Maybe cut the pulses for deathmist, and if you do, the demons do get a lot better

justtesting2002

Not sure why I would cut Pulse of Murasa just to include 2 Deathmist Raptors. The raptors look ok, and I have considered them before but they just don't seem to appealing in here. The obvious interaction between Den Protector and Deathmist Raptor is obviously powerful, and it has been proven so quite a few times; however, I really feel like for it to be a consistent engine you really want to run at least 3 copies of each if not a full play-set. If I ever cut Pulse of Murasa it will likely be for a copy of Kolaghan's Command and a copy of Seasons Past just to be able to recur what I want;hey......that's not a bad idea actually, I might think about that exchange.

You know what other creature was considered a sub par black flyer? Desecration Demon. Now obviously it isn't on the same power level, but it is a similar concept: a big 4cmc flyer with a downside. I think a 4/5 Flyer on turn 4 can put a fast clock on your opponent, block almost anything that was played up until then, can bash through an unflipped Avacyn, flyes over all the ground beaters, trades with Ojutai, and evades most burn removal. I think he is being underrated, same as Goldnight Castigator. Then again, as I always say, I am an awful deck-builder so I could be way wrong :D

By the way, I still very much appreciate the suggestions. It gives me something to think about whether or not I decide to include them.

Hangarback is a great card but isnt it sort of a liability with sin prodder. X is 0 so its of no cost of them to toss this in your yard right?

Censuring

If the thopter-bot goes in the bin it's half of Delirium. One of the reasons why he is in here actually. I almost want him to get pegged by removal or go in the bin. You do make a good observation though, and that's why I am not 100% sold on the concept. It is, however an additional card I can get back with Seasons Past. Any suggestions what could replace him?

What do you think of Moldgraf Scavenger as early blocker and later is basically baby goyf. If you want to fuel delirium early could go with Heir of Falkenrath  ^Flip to help pitch certain cards and is an in air beater. A bit higher up the curve maybeElusive Tormentor  ^Flip 4/4 for 4 isnt bad along with letting you pitch cards for delirium to basically keep it alive almost indefinitely

Heir of Falkenrath  ^Flip is probably not worth it in this deck, it seems better in a pure aggro/madness shell or maybe a more tempo based strategy. I think in this deck, something like Call the Bloodline is a better discard outlet, since it is A. An enchantment for Delerium, B. Repeatable, C. Gives him more bodies to better fight aggro decks.

Moldgraf Scavenger could be a thing if the deckbuilder adds more Delerium enablers. I do like it as an anti-aggro card, even though it does nothing to stop fliers like Heir of Falkenrath  ^Flip, Archangel Avacyn  ^Flip, Archangel of Tithes, and Dragonlord Ojutai, and think it synergizes better in this deck than Hangarback Walker (even though Hangarback is very good for Delerium + making flying tokens)

I also don't understand why the deck builder isn't going all-in on Arlinn Kord  ^Flip when that card seems like a house. I would test 4 Deathcap Cultivator and 3 or 4 Arlinns. T3 Arlinn seems ridiculous in this creature based deck. (Also Cultivator is good lategame since it can trade up with Deathtouch once Delirium is online)

I like your early removal with Grasp/Fiery Impulse. You'll need it against the Madness/Jace decks. Late game, I like the plan of Junding Them Out with Pulse of Murasa and Den Protector.

I think this could be a piece of the new format, especially with Moldgraf Scavenger and Sylvan Advocate having such high Ceilings for such low mana.

another suggestion could be replacing the Fiery Impulse with Dead Weight. basically does the same thing, but can make a big guy a bit more manageable. Also, it is an enchantment that most of the time will kill itself to add to the delirium.

The_Riddlebox, I think you need to post that in gigantic bold font in the description. When one's in, the other's suggested, and vice versa. Every. Damn. Time. - If you feel the way I think you do about that.

Censuring

What do I think of Moldgraf Scavenger? I think he is ok. I wish he was a 3/4 or even a 2/3 that did anything else when Delirium is triggered. He definately belongs in a deck, but I feel like as long as Sylvan Advocate is lefal in standard this guy is gonna see fringe play. The 2 are very comparable in many aspects, primarily because they take up the same slot. Let's do just that, let's compare them:

-Right off the bat, without either conditions, for 2cmc Scavanger is a 0/4, and Advocate is a 2/3 with VIgilance. The Scavanger is out of Fiery Impulse range, and can block bigger creatures; however, Advocate gets to not only attack and be able to block next turn, but can also trade if need be.

-Then we have when each condition is met. When you have Delirium Scavanger becomes a 3/4, he can now trade, but can't block if he attacks. That's it, only upside is Delirum can be triggered earlier than turn 6. When Advocate meets it's condition it instead begomes a 4/5, it can deal more damage and block bigger creatures than the Scavanger, not only that but a 4/5 Vigilance is much more appealing than a 3/4; not only that, but he turns my Hissing Quagmires into 4/4s, the downside here is that if I miss a land drop he is much more vulnerable to removal for a longer period of time.

The thing is one can trade/swing at any point int he game, the other can't. They clash too much, and are way too similar, that I only want one of the two and Advocate takes the cake.

Now as far as Delirium goes, I think I have enough "enablers" and don't want to play something as meh as Heir of Falkenrath  ^Flip just to achieve Delirium. I feel like in this deck it's pretty easy to achieve in it's current state. Heir is more of a Madness enabler if you ask me. The same goes for the Elusive Tormentor  ^Flip, he looks more like a Madness enabler than anything. A thing to keep in mind is that once Delirium is online I really don't want to discard anything, and he clashes in the same spot as Mindwrack Demon which is a 4/5 beater that doesn't need constant mana/discard investments.

The cards you suggested are decent cards in their own right, just not in this deck.

jables1138

I agree on Heir, but I only half agree on Call the Bloodline. It does give me reasons to discard a card, whether Delirium is online or not, but I think this deck has better cards to play than that. I also don't think it's that easy to get in the yard since, unlike Dead Weight or Oath of Nissa, the only it's getting there is if your opponent destroys it or Prodder/Demon puts it there. Admittedly, Call the Bloodline would be much more appealing if those 1/1 vampires had Flying instead of Lifelink.

While Moldgraf Scavenger does synergize with the deck more than Hangarback Walker does, I feel like as a 2 of the Walker is more value at almost any stage of the game, while the Scavanger feels like it needs to be a 3 or 4 of so you can play it early, since a vanilla 3/4 is very unimpressive later in the game in my opinion. You can also read my thought on Scavanger in my reply to Censuring right above (if you haven't done so already).

The reason I am not going all-in on Arlinn Kord  ^Flip is because while she is obviously good, I feel like most people are over-estimating her. She is good, but slow, even slower than Gideon can be at times. She does can also act as removal, which is cool. The issue is, what do I cut? If I cut Chandra I am removing a walker that way overshadows Arlinn in power, and if I cut Chandra I am likely cutting all walkers for more removal or something along those lines. I could cut the Hangarback Walkers, but that means lowering the creature count. I could also cut the Transgress the Mind from the main, but I feel that's a bad trade-off and if I cut those it should be for something that acts as removal.

I did try Deathcap Cultivator and he tested meh, but then again that was before I made this last overhaul to the deck, and now that it is easier to get Delirium online he might be worth testing again.

mr_funk

That's not a bad suggestion. I actually had Dead Weight in the deck, then ended up taking it out, but I have been thinking about putting it back in, but I would probably only do that if I swap Oath of Nissa back to Traverse the Ulvenwald.

NotSquishedYet

Haha, no kidding. I almost feel like the "Update" section is more for myself than anything else. I don't mind it too much, repeating things is meh, but it does make me second guess myself and have me think "was that the right call?", so that's worth something.

Writing out those walls of texts gave me some ideas!

I am going to cut Fiery Impulse to make room for Ultimate Price. Maybe cutting 1 cmc removal is a mistake, but I feel like the payoff to be able to hit more targets is well off, and let's be realistic, how often will I actually be casting a turn 1 Fiery Impulse in this deck? It also allows me to go lighter on red, and focus more on black and green; and I feel that's the best way to go for 3 color decks from here on out: go heavy on 2 colors and only lightly splash a third.

I think Transgress the Mind does belong in the deck....but back in the sideboard. I am going to cut it, along with 1 land, to make space for Deathcap Cultivator. With the deck being slightly more centered on Delirium, I really feel like he has more potential to actually act as removal. The fact that I have "not much to ramp into" is something else that I am not worried about. The reason I am cutting a land is because I really think that 24 lands is probably just enough, and with the Cultivators it won't really be a big deal.

Reduced down to 1 Pulse of Murasa, the other is in the side, and moved the Seasons Past in the main. I am really tempted of running 2 in the main, this card seems really good.

I decided to cut the Hangarback Walker, even after all the good things I said about him, to make space for 1 mainboard Ruinous Path and a Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet.

I also decided to cut Goblin Dark-Dwellers. They have some neat interactions in this deck, but I seem to have enough recursion without needing to narrow down to just 1 type of card I can recur; the 4/4 Menace was nice too. In their place I will instead add 2 copies of Nissa, Vastwood Seer  ^Flip. I was suggested Nissa more than once, and she seems like a fine lady to have so why not. I also want to make space for a 4th Mindwrack Demon, but what to cut...what to cut. This also kind of lowers the curve and thins out the amount of red needed.

Lastly, as far as the main board goes, are the changes to the manabase. I won't list in length but the two major ones are: less red mana/more black/green, and complete removal of the shadow lands; I absolutely dislike those in 3 color lands, makes them very awkward draws mid to late game, and I feel like they are much better in 2 color decks instead. I think the few battle lands, other duals, and the increased amount of basics will work just fine.

I also made some changes to the sideboard. The most notable one is the cut of Goldnight Castigator, to make space for Virulent Plague. I absolutely love Castigator and I feel it's a terribly underrated card, BUT the double red is harsh here, especially since I want to cut down on the red, as a turn 4 drop and I feel like I can be aggressive enough against control/ramp to the point where it just sort of became pointless to have. The inclusion of the Plague is important here as there are going to be a whole lot of tokens out there. The main culprits here are the G/B token decks that are looking pretty scary and the ware-wolf decks; it is also worth nothing it makes Gideon and Arlinn's 0 abilities null and void (unless there is an anthem effect out), and it also stalls out Sorin's ultimate, as well as other producers.

I made some other minor changes to the deck, but I feel like overall they were some nice changes. I will say I am almost thinking on cutting both walkers, but I really want to test them out in actual play at FNM or something before I make up my mind on that one. Reason I keep thinking that is because while both are great, if I cut those it gives me room to add Atarka, Dead Weight, Duress in the main, and swap Oath of Nissa back to Traverse the Ulvenwald for a mix between the two versions this deck went through and to fully utilize Delirium. Maybe that's the right call, but we will wait and see I guess.

One last note, if I go full Delirium built like I mention just above, I might swap Transgress for Pick the Brain as SB tech, which would allow me to remove Obliteration and open up 2 slots for something else.

So with seasons in something at 5 seems like a plus right? The only thing i could think that seems worth it are Dark Petition or Sidisi, Undead Vizier as they give you a card thats is either almost always castable with spell mastery or a big body on table with sidisi. Also what do you think of Woodland Wanderer as a replacement for the demon. Its easier to cast luigi makes sure you have a second color and maybe that third that makes him bigger than the demon; he stays back to block and no drawback

Censuring

I would rather not run something simply because of the cmc for Seasons Past if it doesn't help the deck on its own. Not that Dark Petition or Sidis are bad, but they have no place in this deck as there is nothing worth cutting for them.

I also would not replace Mindwrack Demon with Woodland Wanderer. The Wanderer is a fine guy, and can be even scary, but I feel like he was more powerful when fetches were in standard. Even if I cast for just a black and a green he still comes down as a 4/4 Trample Vigilance which is nothing to scoff at. The problem that arises here is, unless I can get him out as a 5/5, which wouldn't be too often, is that I can no longer race as well as I could with the demon. Even with trample damage is still blocked at least partially, there is also to consider that there are many more ground pounders than there are flyers. The demon flyes over things, can beat down Olivia, can trade with Ojutai, can brawl with unflipped Avacyn, and can take down Thopter tokens; and to be honest, most flyers we are going to see are Legendary, that means that thopters aside, I am likely facing one Flying threat at a time and if I can remove it without trading with the Demon I can just swing in and race. Obviously VIgilance is nice so I can swing and block next turn if need be, but I would prefer to have a 4/5 Flyer over a 4/4 Trampler.

I just discovered Gilt-Leaf Winnower kills damn near every creature people are playing right now. As a 1-2 of it might be worth looking into. Feels great to drop the turn after they play their demon. (Also fits the 5 drop for seasons past even though you're specifically disinterested in that)

yoshiman95

It's not that I am disinterested in having a 5 drop, since I keep thinking of removing the walkers to put Goblin Dark-Dwellers back in as well as some disruption/removal for a more attrition based strategy. What I am disinterested in is including a random 5 drop that is mediocre simply because I can get it back with Seasons Past. This isn't some sort of combo deck, Seasons Past is there as a one of to allow me to get back multiple cards late game to win the attrition game, of course the more cards I can get back the better, but it has to work in the deck on it's own first and foremost.

Gilt-Leaf Winnower does kill a whole lot of things, and it may be worth considering in the sideboard.

I'm also running a jund build and am up in arms about splashing red vs splashing black. I played at an event last night and quickly realized the same thing about Arlinn Kord, she typically died very quickly. Also red spells which rely on damage for removal isn't performing as well as it should with all these new creatures in the meta having large defense. Plus I found out I need to go with more board wipes, languish, flaying tendrils, etc due to 1.) the mono white human deck-super fast board state 2.) lots of token generators now. Black also offers destroy spells vs reds damage. I definately plan to make some changes before my next standard event. Here is my just list.http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/soi-bob-jund/

cdunn92483

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Yeah most people misunderstand me when I say I want to cut Arlinn. I am not saying that because I believe she under-performs, but because she needs the right deck to shine in, and seems like a walker that needs to be played early and not late. She is compared often when Gideon and for good reasons, unfortunately unlike Gideon who can be dropped at any point in the game and be considered a threat, unless your opponent has a solid board state already (which kind of goes for almost every walker). You can't drop Arlinn with an empty board and have it be good because if they kill the 2/2 token you made next turn the most you can do is bolt something for 3 and then it gets taken out. She simply doesn't seem to fit this deck's strategy, and the more I talk about it the more I want to cut her for other things like Greenwarden of Murasa, removal, hand disruption, Goblin Dark-Dwellers (if I keep red)), Gilt-Leaf Winnower, or (I am sure NotSquishedYet would cry of joy) The Gitrog Monster.

Damage based removal works just the same as -x/-x removal, the only difference comes in if Indestructible is involved. I do agree with you that Black, as a color in general in most cases, has good enough removal on it's own.

This Jund deck might just end up becoming a Golgari list instead, but I want to test it at the next upcoming FNM or two before I make up my mind. Arlinn on the other hand may not make it to this deck's first FNM.

I will take a look at your list as soon as I get some free time and see what ideas I can share with you :)

I am certain Arlinn will not make it to my next fnm. I will be doing a good bit of editing on my build before next fnm.

What do you think about g/b with a splash of white for sorin, declaration on stone and decend upon the sinful?

cdunn92483

A few other people have suggested splashing white as it offers better removal and even though I said no to all of them, I am somewhat considering it, although I don't want to as I feel if I went in Abzan colors there is a better way to build the deck then what it looks like right now and I would much rather just build a new deck over doing another overhaul here.

Cards I would consider if splashing white are Declaration in Stone, Anguished Unmaking, and Archangel Avacyn  ^Flip. I would not include Always Watching as it wants an aggressive build, and that is not what I am after; and I would not include Sorin, Grim Nemesis simply because he looks more like a control tool to me although he could be good enough for mid-range strategies too as he does help with attrition wars. I am not a big fan of Descend upon the Sinful in this build, simply I don't want my creatures to get exiled because I want to be able to get them back with the couple of recursion tools I have.

It is something I consider, but as I stated, I feel the build would need to be too different from what it is now that it won't happen. I also probably wouldn't build an Abzan deck unless I REALLY like it's direction, simply because I am working on a W/U tempo deck so I can whip out my Jaces and Ojutais once again in case this deck is a major flop :)

OutspokenFerret had told me about using Tireless Tracker instead of Prodder. I saw the potential, made the swap, tested a few bad games, decided I wanted the Prodder back in and made the change again. Then today, after watching SCG Baltimore Open and seeing that the Tracker can literally win games on it's own if not taken care of, I was glad I hadn't taken this deck to FNM yet and decided that the Tracker is definitely the way to go. I almost want to apologize to OutspokenFerret for doubting them hehe.

This bring up if I really need red once again. I just cut one of the main reasons to run red, and I am going to cut Arlinn before next FNM...is it worth it now to run red just for Chandra? Or would this be the time that I finally make the cut to Golgari?

The change would leave room in Chandra's place for two panic-button Languishes. I think it is a viable move that would increase the consistency of the deck.

NotSquishedYet

Jokes on you friend! I already made space for 2 Languish!

Ah. I see, friend.

With dropping your planeswalker count, on another note, Vessel of Nascency over Oath of Nissa?