You have said that Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger mostly means the end of the game. I do not recall saying the same thing for Primeval Titan

May I point out that Harrow only lets you fetch basic lands?

That's because it can shut down your opponent by forcing them to tap lands in order to kill or bounce it. That means, those lands stay tapped. While they struggle to recover I can drop another fatty and slaughter them.

I know Harrow only searches out basic lands, hence why I don't want to change the land base anymore.

The "dies to Doom Blade " argument is as old as the first printing of Diabolic Edict . It never serves any purpose in any discussion other than the MTG version of "you're stupid!" (No, I don't think you were calling UmbrotheUmbreon stupid but that is the type of thing this argument engenders in the minds of people.)

In this case the choice is Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger v.s. Primeval Titan . Why don't we break them down and see which is best?

They are both creatures and both subject to the same kinds of removal so null there,

8 cmc v.s. 6 cmc, do we have the ramp to make that a moot point? Seems like it to me so null there too.

Lasting effects, Vorinclex has a Caged Sun effect and a Frost Breath type effect where Prime time has a Ranger's Path effect. Lets consider if both were instantly removed at your end step. Prime time leaves 2 lands (2x Breeding Pool ) and Vorinclex makes it so they are unable to untap, making it essentially a free turn for you. If you are playing v.s. control they are going to want untapped lands more than they care about you having 2 more lands. I would probably rule in favor of the land targeting Frost Breath more than Ranger's Path .

Seems to me that Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger is better for this application.

Also, have you ever considered Axebane Guardian for more fixing and more defenders?

I believe you already suggested that Ohthenoises and I gave the example of not liking to rely too much on creature ramp.

What I mean this time is Axebane Guardian for Overgrown Battlement for the simple reason of "any combination of colors" rather than "G" You have plenty of other 2 drops already so I doubt it will interfere.

You also mentioned UUU was hard to achieve sometimes.

The main reason I prefer the Battlement to the Guardian is the mana cost for one, and the second is it is more resistant to removal AND is an amazing blocker against aggro. I know it won't interfere too much with the mana curve, but I'd prefer to just have G mana that can stick around easier than more easily removed any color. Also Plasm Capture will help out a lot :3

Yeah, so I just swung for 170..

This deck is fantastic.

Haha wow, nicely done :D Thanks and thanks for the +1 :)

wouldn't Reliquary Tower fit in this deck when you are using enter the infinite.

No because if you are casting Enter the Infinite without Omniscience it is to fetch what you need, then the turn afterwards discard an Eldrazi to shuffle your graveyard back into the library. This way you can get milled out.

If you cast it WITH Omniscience out then you win

Why no Laboratory Maniac when you have enter the infinite and kozilek?

I did think about that as an alternate win condition. The only problem is if I cast Kozilek and someone in response kills Laboratory Maniac . That is why I wouldn't run it. Kozilek was thrown in to help with the reshuffling of the graveyard should I have to resort to using Enter the Infinite to get the hand I need. It was also thrown in so I could slap down both Emrakul and Ulamog, and then discard Kozilek to prevent the mill. The only problem is with both Eldrazi swinging, nothing lives.

What about Elvish Piper as an alternate way to get Eldrazi's out?

Why cheat it into play and miss out on the cast trigger when I can just cast it a couple turns later and either get an extra turn, draw four cards, or destroy a permanent? The whole idea of the deck was to ramp the mana into hardcasting a big fatty, rather than cheat it into play. That is how the deck works and it has done pretty well. I'd rather not add cards in that cheat creatures into play, esp the Eldrazi.

UmbrotheUmbreon

The reason you want to be able to cheat it out is because your deck is already really slow the way it is.

If you really don't want to cheat it out, you gotta have the Cloudpost . There are legacy decks that make it to first place with 12 post and only ~9 colored lands. You would have to limit your colored stuff to only 1 or 2 symbols in each card, but it's much faster than what you're doing.

Usually, Eldrazi decks are 12-post with casting it as Plan A, Cheating it out as Plan B, and has some control elements because Eldrazi decks are vulnerable early game.

May I ask why you are even comparing this deck to legacy decks, when it is marked Casual? This deck isn't made for legacy, or even competitive play really. It's just a fun deck that is a lot of fun to play. I'm not trying to slaughter my opponents with ridiculous brutality as early as possible. That wouldn't be very fun to play against in a casual setting.

The deck's speed? It has the potential to go off turn 5-6. That is pretty fast for a midrange deck, which this is. Cloudpost isn't needed, and I've used this deck several times and aside from the occasional screwing of ramp spells or land, I do really well.

Because you said before that "Cloudpost is better suited for artifact decks". What you said is like saying "I don't need Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre because I have Pathrazer of Ulamog .

Control isn't fun because they screw with your game plan. Aggro isn't fun because they're too fast. Combo isn't fun because it just happens like that. Wait a second...

I'm trying to help you because I had a very hard time getting an eldrazi out on even turn 7. Because this is casual, I don't think it would be very fun if you didn't really have much to do for the first ~7 turns or so. You have Plasm Capture but other than that, there's not much going on for you. MTG is fun because you're interacting with the other person.

What you can do is replace Devastation Tide for Echoing Truth or Into the Roil . Summoning Trap can be used to troll the other person if they try to counter your early game stuff and it can also be used late game to get a possible Emrakul, the Aeons Torn for 6 mana. Take out Plasm Capture for Mana Leak . It may be a nice counter that gets you all that mana, but it's still a 4 mana counterspell. I know you're using it for the mana and not for the counter, but that's not a very reliable source of mana. Your opponent could be running a goblin deck.

Also, a general suggestion that doesn't really help the fun factor is to take out Urban Evolution for Explore .

I'm not trying to be a dick here.

To be fair you don't. Pathrazer is brutal, and doesn't rely on a cast to use its abilities cause they are triggered and static.

Control is supposed to screw with your gameplan, otherwise it isn't control. Aggro is supposed to be really fast. Combo is...well, look at this deck. Omninfinite is a brutal combo. You're basically telling me that the three MAJOR key parts of the game are not fun, which means MTG itself isn't fun.

I've actually gone Omnifinite turn 7, so not only did I cast one, but two Eldrazi among other things. There is a lot to do before turn 7, and I have cast 4 spells in one turn. Turn 5 I had TWELVE, I'll repeat, TWELVE lands out, among other things. Turn 6 Omnifinite is brutal as fuck. Plasm Capture is absolutely amazing card, and fits the deck much better than Mana Leak . Early or late game don't matter cause I can counter it for sure, and add mana to play something big as well. Replace a board sweeper? Are you crazy? Before I added Devastation Tide this deck was bad at keeping the field clean long enough for the win. Ever since adding it I've done MUCH better. Devastation Tide STAYS. Board Sweepers > Bounce with this deck.

Urban Evolution nets me three cards and I can play an extra land. Definitely worth it. I have Explore as a filler card right now in my deck. Not doing too good so far. You may not be trying to be a dick, but you are kind of coming off that way. You're basically telling me to practically take apart most of the deck and add cards I don't exactly agree with, because some of the cards in here are "too slow" or "Not good enough". You have basically been saying that this deck is unfun, and too slow for any kind of play, when it has had A LOT of success. I don't mind that you are giving constructive criticism, but the advice you are giving me wouldn't exactly be great for the deck, as it is TOURNAMENT advice. This is a CASUAL deck, not meant to see ANY tournament play.

What I said was supposed to be stupid. If it's not fun to play against turn 3 eldrazis, then MTG isn't fun at all.

Either the 12 lands on turn 5 is bullshit or you had a god hand. What was the god hand?

4 mana for a FREAKING COUNTER. It's 4 MANA FOR A FREAKING COUNTER. The mana you get from Plasm Capture is a bonus, it's not the reason why you use the card. Congrats dude, you got ~2 mana from that Plasm Capture because you were playing against a goblin deck!!! Good luck keeping 4 mana open for a Plasm Capture without giving your opponent board advantage.

If Mana Leak is a bad card, you never used it. It's a bad card on paper, but a great card on practice. If you really don't want to use Mana Leak , consider Remand or Counterspell .

Are YOU crazy? You gain TEMPO. You gain CARD ADVANTAGE. You SLOW THEM DOWN BY A HELL LOT. Return that Goblin Chieftain , return that Oblivion Ring , return that whatever. Besides, you said this is supposed to be a MIDRANGE deck. Early game bounce is the best thing midrange could ever ask for. Maybe Devastation Tide is okay as a one-of but Early Game Bounce > Late game Board bounce.

Are you using Urban Evolution for the card draw or the land drop? If you're using it for the land drop use Explore or Azusa, Lost but Seeking . If you're using it for the card draw, then use Careful Study , Brainstorm , or Ponder . If you're using it for both the card draw and the land drop, still use Explore .

Also, I don't play tournaments. I play casual. Occasionally, I play competitive casual, but I mostly play casual.

It wasn't a god hand, it was me using the deck the way it should be used. Adding mana from the 2-3 Overgrown Battlement s I had on the field plus the 3 blue mana on the field, in addition to my forests, I cast Harrow , then Twincast ed it, fetching two Islands. I played another Harrow and Twincast ed THAT as well, getting me more lands. THEN I cast a THIRD Harrow . I ended up netting 7 lands with the 5 I had on the field already. Do the math.

Please, PLEASE point out where I said Mana Leak was bad. I'm DYING to know when I said that. Never, that's when. I simply stated Plasm Capture was better for the deck than Mana Leak , that doesn't mean I said it was bad.

No, no I'm not crazy. The miracle can work wonders, and it hits EVERYTHING at once. With this deck, I don't care. Okay tap out for 13 mana thanks to Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger and cast Devastation Tide to board sweep. Now I'll use the leftover mana to recast him. Tap my Overgrown Battlement s and add X green mana, then use the five lands I have to cast Devastation Tide then recast the Battlements with the leftover mana. I can hit midgame board sweep just fine. You seem very focused on Goblin decks most specifically. Is that because you always lose to them? Sorry but no one in my meta or friends group uses goblins except for one guy. Guess what? Devastation Tide helped a lot.

I'm using it for both, which is better than Explore , which only nets me one card. That one nets me three, which heightens my chances of getting that extra land.

You may not play tournaments, but that doesn't mean you're not giving tournament, aka competitive, advice. There is no such thing as competitive casual by the way. Casual is meant to be a relaxed format with a set of rules defined by your playgroup. Same goes for the ban list too. When you play competitively, you are no different than those who play tournaments, because you play to win, and will build as powerful a deck as you can.

From my ~100 playtests or so (this is one of those decklists where it's fairly simple to figure out how to use), that sounds like a god hand (yes, I mulled on shit hands).

You said that when you said "Plasm Capture is absolutely amazing card, and fits the deck much better than Mana Leak . Early or late game don't matter cause I can counter it for sure, and add mana to play something big as well.".

I should elaborate on why I said to take out Plasm Capture for Mana Leak . You know the card Sign in Blood , right? (Of course you do, I just linked it to you). Do you use it on yourself for the card draw or on your opponent for the loss of life? You CAN choose to use it on your opponent to make him or her lose 2 life, but that card is meant to be used on yourself for the card advantage. Similarly, Plasm Capture isn't meant to get you mana which is how you're using it. It's meant to counter spells. If the problem is that you want to be able to counter things late game (where Mana Leak isn't made obsolete but is slightly weaker), then you could use Remand or Counterspell . Also, like I said, if you're using Plasm Capture for the mana, it's not very reliable against some decks.

Sorry about the confusion, I usually call aggro goblins because my friend uses a goblin deck lol. I go about 50-50 against goblins.

If you REALLY want to keep Devastation Tide and if you're relying on the miracle cost to save your ass, then use Brainstorm and Ponder or Sensei's Divining Top . Brainstorm is an auto-include as a 4 of in a blue deck anyway.

Maybe you should post the decklists of the decks you play against or at least say what kinds of decks you can play against so people don't give you shit advice.

[Sarcasm] Right, because you're never going to have a land in your hand when you use Explore . [/Sarcasm].

"Only nets you one card" is an understatement. Card advantage is very important in this game. Even drawing 1 card is amazing.

Casual is when you play to have fun. There will be people that make shit decks from packs they buy, and there will be people that pay thousands of dollars to make what is probably a god deck which depending on whether it is legal in any format or not, could be competitive in that format. There will be people that care about winning, and there will be people that don't care. Either way, you're playing to have fun. There will be different reasons why people think casual is fun. For me, it's fun because cards aren't banned and you can do whatever shit you want, which opens up hundreds of possibilities. The actual gameplay and the trolling and other things that happen when you play MTG is also fun. When you win, you feel good. When you lose, you still feel good because you had fun anyway and it also makes you think "What could I have done differently?"

The idea that all tournament players play to win is a stereotype. There are some tournament players that play to be (What may or may not be intentional) douchebags that want to prove their strength and rage when they lose. There are some tournament players that play to have fun with the winning being just a bonus. There are some tournament players that do play to win, but aren't trying to be (and usually aren't) douchebags. Not all tournament players are Spikes that play to win and be complete assholes. I would personally have a lot of fun playing in a tournament.

I should rephrase what I said earlier. Sometimes, I play casual without caring about winning. Sometimes, I play casual with the intention of winning. Either way, (like I said earlier), I play because it's fun. (Usually, I will be trying to win if I'm making a bet, but I think it's sometimes fun to play knowing that you're playing with all your strength and knowledge and your opponent is doing the same. I also like seeing the maximum potential of my decks and to see what kind of a monstrosity I have created). No, I'm not trying to force my opinions on you. I'm just sharing my opinion.

It wasn't a god hand, I just got lucky draws, and no I didn't cheat cause it was on Cockatrice. What one player calls a "shit hand" is different for another player. If I get two lands, a blue and green, or even two green, that's good enough to play. Other players may disagree.

Reread the quote you just put. WHERE does it say I said Mana Leak was BAD!? All I said was Plasm Capture suites the deck better than Mana Leak . That isn't the same as saying "Mana Leak is bad." Yes I know what Sign in Blood is, I have had many of them. If Plasm Capture wasn't meant to give me mana then why the hell put that on the fucking card? It was added there for the sole REASON of adding more mana to your mana pool. It was MEANT to do that! It stays, that's final.

Not everyone uses Goblin decks, so you don't need to reference it EVERY time you compare a card in a deck to another deck style.

"Brainstorm is an auto-include as a 4 of in a blue deck anyway." First off, it is a Legacy, EDH, and Vintage staple card. It isn't exactly cheap and easy to find. Also, not EVERY blue deck needs to AUTOMATICALLY include four. That's like saying if someone is running blue but not Brainstorm their deck is bad, which isn't true.

I use Explore as a filler card for now and obviously you're bound to have some lands in your hand to play for the additional land drop. I'm just saying it isn't always going to be the case, and that one card draw may not be enough. The purpose of Urban Evolution isn't just card advantage or dropping another land, it is a great dig spell to dig into the deck for the card you need. Yeah one card is good, but three is better. This deck likes to dig, which is why Blue Sun's Zenith is also in here.

I'm not even going any further with the rest of your post, so I'll just skip to the last bit. You may be sharing your opinion, but you're doing so in a rather negative way. First off, this deck isn't "really slow", it just isn't as fast as Goblins (since you SO love comparing them). That doesn't make it bad or slow. Secondly, you named a good portion of cards in the deck, saying they aren't good enough and need to be taken out for cards that I don't exactly want in the deck. I feel they are unneeded, and some I don't really care for or think are good. Then you proceed to tell me that I don't know how to use the cards in my deck, as though you built it and lent it to me to use. I HATE that. I say that because you keep telling me "this card isn't used like that" or "you need these if you are running this". I'm all up for a nice discussion, but you apparently don't get the hint that I just don't want to take those cards out. This deck runs pretty well as is, and if I drop anything, it'll probably be the Zeniths for Think Twice or Farseek

Rule number (insert number here) of MTG: Mull if you have 1, 6, or 7 lands, so of course I did that. I mulled on hands such as hands where I was color-screwed or hands where the cards I cast wouldn't lead anywhere. (BTW, you gotta have the dual lands man. Farseek (which you said you're considering) fetches Breeding Pool and is cheaper, and it also doesn't give you land disadvantage if it's countered unlike Harrow )

Because according to you, this deck is so consistent, then maybe I'm wrong in thinking that you're supposed to use Harrow , Coiling Oracle , Overgrown Battlement , Plasm Capture and Urban Evolution for ramp (Which that's not even how you're supposed to use Plasm Capture ), you use Twincast to copy shit like Harrow , you use Urban Evolution and Blue Sun's Zenith for the card draw, you use Plasm Capture and Devastation Tide for the control part, and you use Omniscience , Enter the Infinite , Emrakul, the Aeons Torn , Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger , Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre , Kozilek, Butcher of Truth , and Craterhoof Behemoth for the finishers.

That's like saying "Why the hell is Pathrazer of Ulamog unblockable by less than 3 creatures?" or "Why does Consecrated Sphinx have flying?". SURELY, you're supposed to be using Pathrazer of Ulamog for the partial unblockability and SURELY, you're supposed to be using Consecrated Sphinx for it's flying ability!!!

I'll just repost this quote here:

"Sorry about the confusion, I usually call aggro goblins because my friend uses a goblin deck lol."

If Brainstorm is expensive (and it's a $1.50 card), then how are you even able to afford MTG cards in the first place?

Brainstorm generates card advantage. You get to draw 3 cards, then put 2 cards from your hand on top of your library (and they don't have to be the cards you just drew). It improves hand quality by a lot and because it's in instant, it can be used in response to discard spells such as Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek . You also get to choose what you draw for your next 2 turns, which works nice for cards such as Delver of Secrets  ^Flip and miracle cards. You're right, it's not a card that is necessary to win the game. However, it is strongly recommended and there's no reason to not put it in a blue deck.

So apparently, you're saying that you're not always going to have lands to put down with Explore . Is that's not true for Urban Evolution ? One reason why Explore is better is because it costs 2 mana compared to 5 mana for Urban Evolution . Which would you rather have, a 1 mana card that draws you 1 card or a 3 mana card that draws you 3 cards?

Let's see how cost efficient those 2 cards are.

Both cards let you play an additional land the turn you cast it. Explore draws 1 card, while Urban Evolution draws 3. Because Explore costs 2 mana, you could assume that one of the mana is for the land drop and one of the mana is for the card draw. If it's 1 mana for the land drop and 1 mana for the card draw, that means that you're paying 4 mana to draw 3 cards compared to 1 mana to draw 1 card. That also means that if one of the mana in the mana cost for Explore is to draw a card, then that means it costs 2 mana to play an additional land on the same turn. Explore is therefore more efficient than Urban Evolution .

Early game draw > Large amount of late game draw. Blue Sun's Zenith is late game. It costs 4 mana to draw 1 card, 5 mana to draw 2 cards, 6 mana to draw 3 cards, 7 mana to draw 4 cards, and so on. Skipping ahead, it costs 10 mana to darw 7 cards, and it costs 20 mana to draw 17 cards. We can see that the longer the game goes on, the more efficient Blue Sun's Zenith becomes. Considering though that it costs a minimum of 4 to draw cards AT ALL, it's not a very good source of card draw. Of course, because it's a ramp deck, it's probably faster than that, but I would still consider some cheap card draws such as Careful Study , Think Twice , or Thirst for Knowledge . Keep Coiling Oracle in there, it's very good. Also, you just said that this deck likes digging. Why is Brainstorm a bad candidate for that?

TL; DR for what you skipped over: Casual is when you play to have fun. Competitive casual is logically possible. Many people play MTG differently. Not all tournament players are douchebags. (Insert reason why I play non-competitive casual and why I play competitive casual here)

It's acceptable for a deck to be slow if a deck has early game control elements to help survive that long such as Echoing Truth , Inquisition of Kozilek , Lightning Bolt , and Path to Exile . However, it's bad for a deck to be slow if a deck has little ways to survive until then. All you have is Fog Bank , a fishing game for Devastation Tide , and a 4 mana counter.

There are cards that are good on paper and bad on practice such as Guttersnipe or Aurelia, the Warleader . There are cards that are bad on paper and good on practice such as All Is Dust or Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts .

I only said that about Plasm Capture ...

Finally, you said "+1, comments, thoughts and suggestions are appreciated :)" but I have NEVER seen you take any idea into consideration. You're just shooting them all down. Why are you asking for suggestions if you're only shooting them down? Are you just posting these decks for the upvotes people give you?