Programmer_112: he might have played top tier decks, but certainly not piloted competently. Looking at this deck, it looks like and half-decent Twin or Bloom player would just annihilate him, hell, any combo deck, and against midrange, like I said, he has worse cards and no hard removal. Regardless of whether or not he likes the Removal argument, it is still an argument.

Also, nickiru, what did you mean by 'makes the deck dependent on itself'?

I assume he means the cards are relianr in having other cards to be good where he tries to have all cards that are usable separately but work Even better together

WicKid52 you keep on bringing up amulet bloom as a competitive deck. It's really not its a gimmick they have to have to get amulet out to get turn 2 titan. It's a very inconsistent deck and even then It's not a secured win when they do get it turn 2. titan can be removed easily by a burn and block or double burn. Also you guys keep acting like all those other decks like tron and hive mind consistently do things on early turns. They really don't and no matter how well somebody is piloting the deck those decks. They still consistently do not draw key pieces and yes they are devastating when they get key pieces out in the right order ,but they suck or are mildly good if they don't. The idea with the synergy deck is that alll the pieces are effective all the time in most situations by themselves and made better if other pieces are out. This makes the deck have a higher consistency in doing well. Those other decks are like ,"crap i didn't draw the cards i need i guess i won't be competitive". While this one is just like "sweet i drew cards lets play".

That's why this deck does well it's good a higher amount of the time than the other decks that "need" certain cards.

That's what mulligans are for. Knowing when to mulligan is an important part of the game and does require knowledge of the deck you are running. Amulet bloom got second at a pro Tour. It's competitive. You don't get to second at a pro tour with An inconsistent deck.

Yeh..... there's a reason they make up like 5% of the meta each. They actually ARE consistent.

Bro, Bloom has historically done pretty well on the PT. Anyone who is either experienced with the deck or has decent knowledge of the stack is easily able to crush a huge part of the meta with it. kylothian, you say that this deck is all "sweet I drew cards let's frickin do this", but as far as I can tell, the cards just aren't as good.

One of the common misconceptions about Bloom, which is apparent here, is that it's meant to win on T2. Bloom CAN win on T2, but like other combo decks, that's not the goal. It's much more consistent than people give it credit for.

um, I turn 2 knight and it gets pathed, bloomtitan deck turn 2's a titan and it gets pathed, or tron turn 3's wurmcoil and it gets pathed...??? THis is why I dislike the removal argument.

I have argued with too many people like you all. You are all apart of this collective which can't break out of the norm. when someone like me breaks away to experiment, you sit here and insult. I will respond but with minimal effort/thought unless there is anything constructive said. As of now, all I am hearing is verbatim repeats of the minds of everyone else which is a simple waste of my time. I would rather be working on my deck and playing games and gathering data; which is what I will be doing now.

What's hilarious, is I fight people like you and its either an eye opener or a rage quit on their part... so.... I have my data. and whether you believe it or not doesn't matter to me. I will go grand prix and strive for victory. The irony of it all is that when I have a deck that dominates, your kind will all be net-decking it just like any other of your overrated decks. I will then sit back and laugh. Worst case scenario, I fail and we both lose nothing. If I win, you all were a stumbling block or a hindrance in the deck's development.

Now for a quick rant cause this is one thing I havn't heard people blabber about:

Bloomtitan is a piece of SH@&!! Like kylothian said, its sooo inconsistant. Yes it made it to PT, but that's cause all the other decks are inconsistances as well. I have made an argument before how the whole meta is a giant lottery. everyone plays like decks, then every deck has equipotential to reach the top or near it. I slaughter boom titan. Piloting has nothing to do with it. I have also slughtered afinity, tron, many variations of junk, etc... Its a matter of what you draw. 90% of gameplay is your deck and not you, unless you are a control deck.

I dislike the whole piloting argument as well. This game is too much based on chance. The skill is deck building and I have made a better deck. When I win, you will all have to accept that (maybe not you guys out of rebellion but those like you, who haven't seen me, will like my deck cause all I will be seen as is a pro.) I will make an advance in magic or fail. what's with all the resistance?!? this is all to your guy's benefit.... I don't understand. Which is why I won't comment whole heatedly anymore cause the ill-logic only boils my blood and I don't need that. especially when I try to give a good argument and spend an hour planning responses and only get 1 sentence replys with a fallacious base. I put forth way more effort than you all. You all just net deck cause you to lazy to get off your fat butts and try to make something new. Your uncreative, and so you attack those who try to be creative. You are all a hindrance to scientific development and I resent that.

I will openly insult because you all are not following the rules of this site by moving on when someone disagrees with you. Please, move on.

GAhh see like this, I just spent all this time typing this garbage, I got homework... shoo go away...

(those who have been helpful, I thank you ever so much. This is aimed for the masses and no one in particular.)

5% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and second whoa............. I guess I'll have to rescind my argument........that literally takes the cake right there..I mean like mind blown......wow.....got me there............. statistics would never let an inconsistent deck win second at pro tour......wow......

Also how are you even arguing that any deck in this game is consistent. Almost every deck in this game except for a few fringe ones that really don't matter are inconsistent. With almost every deck you can end up drawing only non lands or just lands. This game is very inconsistent by nature. To argue that any deck is consistent is quite ludicrous.So when I say very inconsistent I mean that it less consistent than most other decks that aren't dependent on a few sets of cards in them. If you guys are going to argue with me that a deck that needs very specific cards to go about its intended game play is as consistent or more consistent than a deck that doesn't which there plenty of good decks that don't need a few particular pieces I am honestly done debating with you. It isn't worth my time.

The correct quote WicKid52 is and I actually quote,"sweet i drew cards lets play". You good sir or woman or it...thing?.(I'm not wanting to assume anything here and be offensive)... paraphrased me. By the way I'm reasonably sure you aren't my brother.

I'd agree with or disagree with the point you stated,"the cards just aren't as good". The only problem is that I have no idea what you are comparing the cards to. As good as???? puppies ,because I think puppies are pretty awesome and would actually have to agree with you there.

I'm not against innovation in the game, but your deck's description says it starts to go off turns 4-6. That's too late to beat twin, who can consistently go off turn four for an "if you don't have abrupt decay you get killed"

your only main-deck answer to a primeval titan is to get Phyrexian Obliterator our first. If you do that, you're pretty set against the combat half of bloom titan. I know you say it's inconsistent, but honestly it runs virtual 11 copies of titan (4 titan, 4 Summoner's Pact, 3 Tolaria West I think is the number people use right now. might be two). the deck also runs Serum Visions to order its draws and dig for an amulet and other combo pieces, often running 2 Azusa, Lost but Seeking to compliment its 4 Summer Bloom. What I'm trying to say here is that the deck is not an inconsistent steaming pile that doesn't play well. it's a real deck. Being able to dig for your key cards is just as good if not better than having less-than-optimal cards for when you don't draw your good ones. You still haven't given any explanation for how you can respond to the deck at all, just said that it's obviously a bad deck so who cares because your deck is obviously good. If you don't mind my saying, that's a fallacious argument.

you say in your description that you've never played against twin, but are saying that you've tested it extensively. Twin is a major deck in this meta and if you haven't encountered it, while random variation could have had that happen, it seems weird that you're somewhere testing against top tier decks being piloted well (which is very relevant, I'll get to that) you haven't run into twin at all. Just makes me question how you're testing so thoroughly to claim you have 90% win rates across the board, oh but you haven't even seen a twin deck to play against.

you have 1 Slayers' Stronghold, and a lot of your description talks about how good it is and how key it is to winning out of some situations. You have 3 cards that tutor for it, if they survive a full turn. Seems like it isn't a good out and you're now getting to depending on your draws to win instead of playing a good deck... Which is what you're convinced all magic decks that aren't this do.

so about deck piloting being important. I'll make a relatively simple argument. If how a deck is piloting weren't important, anyone playing an abzan deck has an equal chance of placing in a competitive event. If everyone had an equal chance at placing in a competitive event, we wouldn't see the same people consistently doing so. We do see the same people consistently placing in a competitive event, therefore their skill at piloting their decks are important to their results.

to explain it with different reasoning, Different people holding the same cards will play them in different orders, or use removal spells at different moments of the game. How to order playing creatures, or which creatures deserve your removal spells, is an important part of the game and requires skill and knowledge of your deck to do properly. Knowledge of an individuals deck because, well, one needs to know what threats can be answered in which ways and what is more likely to cause problems. you say above that piloting this deck takes skill. why would it be different for other decks? if twin has a turn three Deceiver Exarch into turn four Splinter Twin, you're just as dependent on double burn or Abrupt Decay as any other magic player. yes there's random variation in magic. there's also skill. they aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

you claim your deck has more consistency because it has more creatures that act well on their own, other deck builds create consistency by having different cards that let them draw more, or scry through their deck, or filter out their lands. denying these modes of consistency as worse than what you use is yet to be proven, but you've also yet to explain what you do against bloom besides hope you draw your obliterator and the lands to play it.

as an aside, your attitude of "all other decks are terrible because they are trying to execute a specific strategy instead of packing a bunch of good cards" is kind of off-putting and drawing you more argument and dislike from people than you would be getting saying "I think this deck is well positioned because it doesn't take time to search for its threats, it just plays with the ones it draws" which, if you win, is probably more accurate to why.

kylothian: A) Slightly paraphrased quote, you know what I meant.

B): Unlike you, I am certain I'm not your brother, I live on the West Coast. Male.

C): I had commented earlier that this was a midrange deck that played worse cards than other midrange decks. That's what the cards are worse than.

OK. I have a few points to make.

Point 1: Go learn how Bloom Titan works.

You clearly have no idea how the deck works. It may be less consistent than some of the decks in Modern, but it's not as inconsistent as you seem to think that it is, as you would know if you had ever taken the time to try to learn the deck. Bloom Titan is not a bad deck by any stretch of the imagination. It has tutor power in Summoner's Pact and Tolaria West (Transmute for Pact, grab Titan, win). It has an alternate win-con in Hive Mind. It has combo protection in Pact of Negation. It's fast, it's deadly, and a good pilot can force out a Titan by T4 a huge percentage of the time. The reason that many people think that it's consistent is that it's damn near impossible to play. If you don't know every single card in the deck like the back of your hand, then you will pilot it badly, and for that reason, it will likely never be the most dominant deck in Modern. For example, Amulet Bloom can chain Titans forever if it suspects removal. If they see you leaving Path up, they will tutor Tolaria West+bounceland with their Titan, letting them find another Summoner's Pact to find another Primeval Titan, which is going to kill you, since Path is the only playable removal spell that actually gets rid of Titan. For the longest time, I thought that the deck was inconsistent too. However, after I started asking people who actually play the deck, they told me that I was probably just playing it wrong. A lot of hands look like sure mulligans, but can actually lead to T3-T4 wins.

Point 2: You typed this: "You all just net deck cause you to lazy to get off your fat butts and try to make something new. Your uncreative, and so you attack those who try to be creative. You are all a hindrance to scientific development and I resent that."

Seriously. WTF. Besides grammar, this shows that you have no desire to even pretend to be right ever. Take me, for example. I live to brew. I probably make 2-3 new decks a day. For example, today I made a Grixis Discard Storm deck (Liliana's Caress, Past in Flames, Rituals, Locket of Yesterdays, Reforge the Soul, Dream Salvage, etc.), and 8-land Belcher (sort of a netdeck, but the deck doesn't have enough people working on it to be optimized, so you can't really call it a netdeck). I've built Sultai Goodstuffs, basically every possible color combo that includes Gifts Ungiven, and a ton of other stuff. When a brew has potential, I keep working on it. After a week or two, a good brew is good enough that I'll make it public. However, I recognize when something is just a brew. For a long time, I thought that How to beat face (No, not Affinity) *DTK UPDATE* (shameless plug) was really good, basically the same thing that you think with this deck. I thought that it had awesome matchups against almost every deck in Modern. However, unlike you, I decided to keep learning. Other users told me that I really wasn't making as good a deck as I thought I was. For a long time, I argued with them, but finally I decided to actually follow to scientific method (which you seem to be a big proponent of) and test it. I asked the users who said that my deck wasn't that good what I should change, and they told me. I took their suggestions, and my win-rate went up. Simple, hard evidence. This is in fact an almost analogous situation, so I urge you to lose your attitude and actually test things. I think you have a decent concept here, and 4-color midrange sounds fun. However, if you continue to claim that your deck is better than it actually is, you'll never get real help.

Point 3: Clearly, we aren't going to be able to play on Untap, because schedules never seem to align. So, I will return to my original experiment. I will post all of the info that you would have in a game, and you will make the decisions.

Your opening hand is Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Abrupt Decay, Birds of Paradise, Domri Rade, Windswept Heath, Wooded Foothills, and Qasali Pridemage. Keep or mulligan? You know that you are playing against Burn, but you don't know the exact list (it's not the same deck as before). You have decided to go first (if somehow this is wrong, I will put you on the draw).

K

I'm fallacious

and forfeit.

Voila. Troll foiled after approximately 8 months. T|O is broken.

Programmer_112: Digital high-five!

nickiru you know there is this wonderful feature on tapped out where you can block users. I think you should use it. These guys are being trolls and should be treated as such.

"A blind squirrel roots up an acorn once in a while." I'll let them blabber. It doesn't cost me anything as long as I allocate my response time responsibly. Besides, I think they are about finished xD

hey so Funeral Charm it is removal for mana dorks ,card advantage and combos with urborg for unblockable creatures it could be good

SPAM Beast Within kills anything and leaves something for phyrex to munch on.

Legion's Initiative haste and protection for reliquary

what do you think of lotus cobra. it is by far the best mana dorkish thing with the knight. every time you tap it you get 2 mana of any color. That is incredibly efficient. im starting to think about making a deck like this with cobra and much larger threats. just something to think about

that is a good point.... hmmm

I thought about him long ago, but teh deck has changed so much I will reconsider him. That is good mana source, colors, he's a 2/1, and has synergy with other cards.

hmmm

note

Shipwreck Singer

just noting things as I do card searches

hey its me again. decided to do some playtesting of this deck against some of my decks to see how it did. first and foremost: put in a Blood Crypt. i dont care what you take out. just put one in. dear god. more than anything i say please put a blood crypt.

you beat my mono-red land destruction deck 2-1 on the back of your Qasali Pridemage in both cases.

i thenk put it up against my deck Get Kede-Rekt .This one is one of my personal favorite brews. its got all the flavor of rakdos, with a decent amount of playability. lets all burn in the knowledge of despair. party with rakdos. i beat you 4-2. you werent always far behind though. twice our game was decided on the top deck.

Next i threw you up against Legion of Steel. i won 6-4. basically either i got my army out. or you had enough removal to stop me.

After that i threw it up against my combo deck how do you keep rebuilding yourself?. The match-up went 7-4 my favor. your combination of Qasali Pridemage and Abrupt Decay were great at putting a stop to the combo, however you didnt always have an ansewr, or even when you did it cost you enough time for me to redraw my piece.

Lastly I faced your deck off against my pet deck that i plan on taking to GP You and this army!. i kind of got tired by this point so i stopped after 4 games. 2-2 split. the combined power of pridemage and abrupt decay stopped my enchantments from keeping the field in check. also in one game you made Phyrexian Obliterator fight Hunted Troll. suffice to say i was not happy.

overall from what i playtested here is what i found.

1) put in a copy of Blood Crypt. almost every game i would fetch and say to myself "hmm this decision is a bit hard. i mean i want to fetch for crypt but there isnt one. so now i have to decide whether i want black or red." to a lesser extent i also wanted Godless Shrine and an even lesser extent Sacred Foundry. but almost every game i wanted crypt. it came up so often i actually considered going on tcg and buying the card to send to you just so you could put it in your deck and i could finish play testing without wanting to rip my hair out. and for the record. im an extreme cheapskate. i dont have crypt because im too tightfisted to go buy it.

second Phyrexian Obliterator: powerhouse... when in play. i dont want to be misunderstood. this card is a beast once it hits the field. but it is not easy to put this thing on the field. it REQUIRES Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. which is not always easy to get out, even with 2 in deck and 3 Knights of the Reliquary. there were several games where he sat dead in hand because i couldnt muster up the 4 black needed to cast him. sometimes in an effort to build the 4 black required i had to deny myself access to red (no Blood Crypt) which meant that i couldnt cast a Lightning Bolt/Lightning Helix/Domri Rade.

for some reason Jund Charm was never really all that relevant in our games. but i imagine that its versatility it useful. if you are finding that its not and looking for a viable replacement Dromoka's Command has a fight option and Kolaghan's Command has some neat options.

id suggest upping Qasali Pridemage to a 4-of. he did so much work in every game i saw him. i was never unhappy when i drew one and never upset to see it in my opening hand. id say the same of Abrupt Decay, but thats possibly because the decks i used were mostly low curve decks, so i can't say for sure that 4 is better than 3 in a more diverse meta.

oddly enough, ob nix was never relevant. it was played twice if i recall. both times it was swiftly removed.

Domri Rade always felt like a good play and was. it provided card advantage, and the -2 helped set up some great scenarios. the ult was even used once.

Mul Daya Channelers always felt like a good play, but usually wasnt. mostly because i always wanted it to produce mana so i could cast the black omnomnomer. but it was usually a 2/2 or a 5/5.

it always felt like i had to make a commitment in the early game. shoot for black and see if i can grab 4 black producers to cast omnom. or allow myself to grab red so that i can cast my red spells. i know ive harped about this a lot, but it was honestly the most stressful decisions i made while piloting the deck.

if i were to suggest card changes it would be this:

-1 phyrex

-1 mul day

+1 qasali (this dudes back must really hurt from carrying you every game :P)

+1 bird of paradise.

-1 ???+1 BLOOD CRYPT

i can test some more later, but i'm pretty tired right now so ill leave you with this. hope this was helpful.

holy crap!

truly thanks for the information.

I would agree, Blood Crypt would help. I have put it in on and off and now I agree it needs to be back on.

My plan with ob nix is to trade it with a 3 cost similarity, Retreat to Hagra. Dark Confidant will be replaced with another thing like Qasali Pridemage because like you said, qasali is never a bad sight, same with decay. I have been accumilating theories on what to change in this deck and you would be suprised how much you convinced me on a lot of points I have been unsure about. Good confermations and new thoughts/concerns.

Ultimatly the deck will be going more black/red. Green white will always exits, 't'will always be 4 color I think, but the ratios are going to change. My mana curve also is going to lower a bit.

I agree with -1 mul daya, in fact her, Dark Confidant's slot, and Ob Nixilis, the Fallen's slot are going to be replaced with lower cost and more aggressive type things: aggressive as in removal and damage output.

One of my goals is to make the deck have the ability to be aggressive and be a midgame combo to kill strategy. I think it needs a bit more black red aggro and it'll be in good shape.

I'll do some testing now :D