Sideboard help?

Fume spitter combo doesn't work

http://tappedout.net/mtg-forum/general/infinite-undying-combo/

Gotcha, didn't even read my own thread! Skinrender and Pith Driller do work however.

Looks fun, however, there is a flaw in your logic with Fume Spitter. Adding a -1/-1 counter does not remove a +1/+1 counter. The +1/+1 counter is still there, the creature simply has 2 counters on it which happen to have a sum of +0/+0. So sadly, that combo does not work :)

+over 9000 for the Big Lebowski reference.

Also @Marghoul: I believe you are in incorrect; the counters will cancel each other out as a state-based action:

121.2. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 countersare removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1counters on it. See rule 704.

... likewise, adding two +1/+1 counters on a creature does not combine the counters into one +2/+2 counter (which would not inhibit undying from triggering, since only +1/+1 counters do that).

Also, I believe an infinite combo with Fume Spitter is only possible if you have at least two of them out with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed.

Okey, guess I was wrong then :)

@keshav

I believe so. Correct me, someone if I'm wrong, but goes:

1) You sac Fume Spitter-A, targeting itself.

2) FS-A comes back with a +1/+1 counter and the ability fizzles (new object).

3) You sac FS-B, targeting FS-A.

4) FS-B returns with a +1/+1 counter.

5) FS-A gets the -1/-1 counter and they cancel out.

6) You sac FS-A, targeting FS-B.

7) FS-A returns with a +1/+1 counter.

8) FS-B gets the -1/-1 counter and they cancel out.

9) Goto Step 3, go infinite.

The trick is you have to get that first counter on one of them (Steps 1 and 2).

To clear up confusion -- in one easy to read post! -- here's why the Fume Spitter combo won't work.

There are two relevant state based actions here. When a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter exist on the same creature, you remove an equal number of both of those counters, until only one counter type is left on the creature.

The other relevant state based action is the creature dying. (i.e. say it had a +1/+1 counter and then received two -1/-1 counters, making it a 0/0 creature, it dies).

State based actions don't use the stack. They just happen. Sometimes simultaneously, like in the above instance.

Now when it comes to checking for undying, it looks at the last known information for that creature, which unfortunately, because of the way state based effects happen, when it died, it still "saw" the +1/+1 counter.

Now, on to Fume Spitter specifically, "Sacrifice Fume Spitter" is the cost to activate that ability. So, you would never have Fume Spitter as a valid target for it's own ability, because you must pay costs before the spell/ability/what-have-you actually goes on the stack.

Well... Strangelove, you updated the deck as I was posting my response. :-P

From everything I've found in the rules, two Fume Spitters can go infinite to undying. But now the rest of that conversation is lost to the bowels of TappedOut. :-)

You were ninja'd 4 or 5 times anyway.

I gotcha. Makes complete sense, I was just backwards on my understanding of the costs being paid. But it still wouldn't "work" in the way wanted.

However, if you had some kind of cool "whenever a creature gets sacrificed, xyz happens" trigger effect, if could be a pretty cool combo.

I like the idea (+1).... but what is your sac engine other than the pod?

Someone like Grimgrin, Corpse-Born or Devouring Swarm or Flesh-Eater Imp are good as they are 'free' sac abilities.

I'll be updating my pod deck soon when I get round to it - really looking forward to DKA!

I'm talking about drawing a line in the sand, Dude. Across this line, you DO NOT... Also, Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please. 1+ for Big L reference

HAHAHA +23

Oh and dude, how do you upload images like that?

< img src="insert image link here.com" >

remove the space from behind the carrots.

"The Genius of this plan is it's simplicity"