nyrlem_true

Most piles are UB so across those types of commanders it won't change much. So, Gush piles, etc. Sadly Aminatou doesn't give too much worthwhile to making piles easier since she replaces a card and doesn't go through the pile actively. But she does at least open it.

AlwaysSleepy problem is, that you do not want play gush, cause it is bad card on it's own and as you told, there is one more card which you have to draw. Predict maniac LED probe will does not work, there is need for drawing more cards .. so you have to switch probe probably with something which draws two cards?

nyrlem_true

If you really want to make Aminatou work then you can throw in multiple draw 2 spells. Take your pick of Gush/Night's Whisper/Frantic Search, etc. and play more than just the 1 in the stock pile.

If you are playing Doomsday, however, you really do need to play Gush. Skipping it makes Doomsday not worth playing. It gives Doomsday some speed and lets you win without a lot of mana investment. Gush is "fine" on its own, not great but on a High Tide mana-base like most DD lists play, it's passable. The other options are not as good for piling. Frantic Search and Night's Whisper require extra resources.

The ultimate recommendation sadly, is don't build piles around Aminatou, since she makes your life harder and not easier. However, if you really want to, build them like normal with some extra power from multiple draws. The Predict pile also does work.

An example pile is:

1. Predict
2. Gitaxian Probe
3. Lion's Eye Diamond
4. Yawgmoth's Will
5. Laboratory Maniac

It plays out like this:

A. Open with Aminatou to draw Predict and put something on top

B. Predict the card you put on top, draw Gitaxian Probe and Lion's Eye Diamond

C. Cast Lion's Eye Diamond, then Gitaxian Probe/Lion's Eye Diamond for

D. Draw and cast Yawgmoth's Will

E. Cast Lion's Eye Diamond from the yard for

F. Gitaxian Probe from yard to draw and cast Laboratory Maniac

G. Cast Predict from the yard naming anything, draw to win

But that pile requires to win. You need the first to cast the Predict initially, but you can float leftover from the second Lion's Eye Diamond and use colorless mana to cast the Laboratory Maniac.

It's not that the piles here don't work, it's just that they are very inefficient. Unlike with Sensei's Divining Top, Aminatou doesn't let you draw again once you redraw, while SDT does. That's pretty important. While you can just jam any number of draw 2s, or Predict in the list to get there, it's just not where you want to be with DD builds.

My advice is don't skip Gush and the other good piles if you really want to play Aminatou, and I'd avoid relying on her to make your piles better.

Just curious, but is Breya or Yuriko Doomsday a viable choice of commanders?

generalrenard

They work but not the best in our experiences. Breya would be stronger since .

Playing at this time really means the commander has to be obscene, but I'm not sure Yuriko really gives enough.

With the printing of Mission Briefing is it a possible include for some good Doomsday piles? Since it surveils 2 putting Laboratory Maniac & Unearth in the graveyard and then using the second ability of Mission Briefing to cast Unearth targeting Laboratory Maniac getting it on the field.

Combined with some card draws like Gush it could maybe make some new piles.

Also, are their any piles without Lion's Eye Diamond listed? Since it is so expensive very few people can afford it playing EDH.

Odysseus_97

Sorry I seem to have not replied in a timely manner to your questions. My mistake.

Mission Briefing will work in Doomsday piles. However since you have to cast it for , it's not solving anything in particular that DD has trouble with. But you can do some cute lines with it. Admittedly I never really explored it much but I give that more to adding total CMC to a pile over the surveil. It could be quite nifty with Gush, like you said.

You can play without Lion's Eye Diamond. Predict + Unearth piles are the go-to for that kind of stuff. Alternatively, Mission Briefing can also help you there but it's not drawing any cards so you need to pile with it after you draw 2 (like Yawgmoth's Will), or just have it in hand.

Another solution is proxy up Lion's Eye Diamond. Sadly cEDH is approaching Vintage levels of being prohibitively expensive to play, and I think to play the deck you want it's really reasonable to proxy up the card.

I have a question about the Yidris specific line. I'm sorry if I'm blind/dumb. If Ancestral Visions meets a counter, I understand that you can cast anything and cascade into Pact for protection. However, after this happens, AV resolves and draws the remaining three cards. So, you can no longer free-cast Gush and cascade into Lab-Man. So, do you have to hard cast Lab-Man, then free-cast Gush?

Zidantur

No you're absolutely right. It's less smooth when people are interacting with you, but still works.

So I built a Kess Storm deck with a Doomsday Back-up Win-Con. I have a stack formed involving Discovery / Dispersal, what are your thoughts on using the Discovery?

cldennis89

It's not a bad effect but it kinda hurts in a Naus deck and the 2 CMC casting cost is the rough part. But surveil as a mechanic has some potential, but I'm unsure there's a card with surveil is worth playing atm.

Could you add some popular DD commanders in the card list so people have an easy to find reference?

I came here to read about something cool, and I'm leaving sad that I don't have even close to the amount of money I'd need to make this. This is such a beautiful strategy, I wish I had the balls and money to pull it off.

generalrenard

See the commander specific piles for commanders which commonly play DD as a primary game plan.

But also here for reference I have seen Doomsday in:

Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge

Kess, Dissident Mage

Zur the Enchanter

Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder

Breya, Etherium Shaper

Thrasios, Triton Hero + Tymna the Weaver (Or other partners)

Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - Alternative DD style

The Gitrog Monster - If you just want to over complicate your deck for no real benefit

Oona, Queen of the Fae - Not needed but heck it works

Dralnu, Lich Lord - Other UB commmander

Rip Leovold, Emissary of Trest ....

toxicliam

Yeah, it's rough my dude. A lot of these cards cost a pretty penny.

AlwaysSleepy, I need help because Doomsday is over my head. I'm trying to add it to my 5 color Ramos EDH. There are parts to your guide that are have been hugely helpful, now I just need to streamline it to be more mana efficient.

Cracking into the pile with cascade (or a like effect) into Ancestral Vision as you pointed out for Yidris is great! From there I could hold any 1 protection, cast Laboratory Maniac , then Gush for the win... But this is so cost inefficient. Assuming I crack in with a 3 cmc spell, I'm looking at 9 mana before any protection... Without LED is there a way you suggest I adjust? You mentioned Mind's Desire but that seems even less efficient mana wise however it is extremely interesting to me.

What should I do?

MCJennings

Generally the pile is made so Gush cascades into Lab Man. You cast Lab Man off Gush cascade trigger, then Gush resolves and you win. This means with Vision, Lab Man is the bottom card. You can use the cards in the middle as protection and throw Gush in there.

That help out?

Sorry, that was my mistake for not being clear. I can confidently crack into the pile somehow and I have piles with which I win, but I'm not sure how to make them less weak to disruption and how to make them more cost efficient. Some of my headache comes from that I am sure I can crack into the pile, but in like 6 different ways so I'm trying to make various piles for each unusual/unique situation.

Of my many ways to enter the piles, few are cantrips. Though I run cascade to place into piles or potentially enter into- I will not consistently have a Yidris trigger for things like Gush to have cascade... Though sometimes!

MCJennings

That is sadly a bit of the anti-synergy with Doomsday. More interaction makes for a less efficient pile, generally. I wouldn't worry too much if piling countermagic is suddenly making them less efficient, that's normal. Sadly without things like LED it is a bit tough. Without LED I tend to advocate for Predict / Unearth piles. Might be able to weave in something there. LED does also make interaction piles much harder to pull off, since discarding your hand is a definite choke point where someone can interaction with you and kill you.

Just from a practical point of view, I tend not to pile protection much. I rather would try and grab protection before or cast DD when I think the coast is clear. Sadly, by nature of how DD works, it's hard to play around everything, even if you have some room in the pile.

Sorry it's a bit of a non-answer, but it's also what I've found to be better. I tend to avoid piling protection unless it's just required no matter what, and rather try to plan more when I slam DD.

Are we going to be getting an update in regards to new Jace?

I've been running Doomsday as a backup line in an Oona, Queen of the Fae deck centered around Bolas's Citadel , and I just wanted to stop in to say 1) that this primer has been very helpful in refining my lines! And 2) that Jace. Wielder of Mysteries makes the piles so much easier to manage, since he's basically a Laboratory Maniac who counts as a +3 in the pile.

I've gotten into the habit of doing piles that are something along the lines of " Frantic Search / Night's Whisper , Pact of Negation , Jace. Wielder of Mysteries , recursion, blank card".

Thank you, this is the best doomsday primer I have seen and I will be adding the necropotence doomsday to my zur edh deck soon.

MrCommunist

Thanks man, I'm glad you liked it.

TheZodiac666

Sorry super late. New Jace plays much better with Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact . Those win-cons are very strong. He's less amazing in DD since he's 4 CMC, but if you run him he'll have DD synergy.

Thank you!

Been thinking about building dralnu with doomsday as a wincon.
I've been wondering what you think about Notion Rain as it counts to 4 by itself.
Since LED is way out of my price range i was going for a Predict pile anyways but once i saw Notion Rain i thought to myself, i just need to crack the pile with any draw one or draw two.
Then cast Notion Rain , mill Laboratory Maniac with the surveil plus the any other card if we cracked the pile with a draw one, draw Gitaxian Probe and Unearth and cast those for the win.

So Thassa's Oracle means that you only need 2 cards left in your deck and it costs 1 less mana than lab man. Should be a big upgrade right? What piles can be done with this, anything good that doesn't include insanly expensive cards such as Yawgmoth's Will and Lion's Eye Diamond ?