zyphermage says... #2
Oh I would add couple Cryptic Command in the side. It helps answer things you lack answers to like keranos or a drop from tron. In fact I would consider a single Dreadbore in the side and also maybe a couple Liliana of the Veil.
February 2, 2016 5:44 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #3
I love Kalitas in here. I'd actually put a second in the sideboard instead of Olivia Voldaren because it's that good. It is an answer to both Voice of Resurgence and Wurmcoil Engine, both of which are terrible cards for us to face.
You need 4 Terminate-like spells. 3 Terminate and 1 Murderous Cut is a popular split.
Countersquall is one of my favorite cards of all time, but it just isn't a popular choice in Grixis. Spell Snare, Dispel, and Mana Leak are better choices.
I'd drop the 1 Electrolyze and just have the 3 Kolaghan's Command.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth should be a 1-of land in here.
Looks like a great start to a deck!
February 2, 2016 8:54 p.m.
I agree with everything you said ToolmasterOfBrainerd and some of your suggestions were already in the maybeboard. One thing, though, is Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth really needed here?
February 2, 2016 9:01 p.m.
zyphermage For now I'm buying these cards but from reading, the general consensus on jace vs snap is that jace is slightly more powerful in the deck since most everything operates at sorcery speed and jace does additional things + he can flashback multiple things. But testing will tell for sure, of course. The other stuff you mentioned, I agree with. Although I'm not looking to buy Liliana just yet, I think 1-2 main could be good in this shell. At a later date time lol.
February 2, 2016 9:21 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #6
I do not recommend Flaying Tendrils at all. Like, it's really bad. Night of Souls' Betrayal is good in BGx where affinity is a tougher matchup, but you really don't need it, or even want it, in grixis. It kills your own Pia and Kiran tokens, and PiKi is one of your best cards against affinity and similar decks. You're much better off with Izzet Staticaster, Languish, or Damnation.
The only land destruction worth playing is Fulminator Mage or Crumble to Dust. Molten Rain isn't very good because you can't use Kolaghan's Command to get it back. Fulminator is much more playable in matchups besides Tron or Eldrazi, while Crumble to Dust is more powerful hate. If you see a lot of Tron, it's worth playing Crumble to have a you win type answer, but if you see a lot more Scapeshift, Infect, BGx, and other decks where land destruction is playable but not mandatory, then Fulminator is the better option. Do not try to play both.
Do not play Cryptic Command in here. This is not a control deck and cannot be mistaken for one. Basically there are 3 divisions of Grixis, which can be distinguished very easily. If it plays Delver of Secrets Flip, then it is grixis delver, and is not grixis midrange or grixis control. If it plays Cryptic Command, then it is grixis control and is not grixis midrange or delver. If it plays neither Delver nor Cryptic, then it is a grixis midrange deck and is not a delver or control deck. Your deck will tap out really often and is trying to out-value the opponent right from turn 1, not control them. Cryptic has super intensive mana requirements in a deck that already needs RR and BB to function, so you'll almost die to your manabase just trying to get it online. I could go on for awhile why Cryptic doesn't belong in here, and I can explain it more if you want, but this is already a long-winded wall of text and I think you get the idea.
Lilis would be nice, but in time. They're not necessary at first.
Thought Scour is a strict 4-of. Some people have tried shaving it down to 3, but you really want 4.
Playtest and see if you want 1 more land or not. 22 could be light, but test it first, since the difference is fairly subtle.
Urborg is a nice edition, and if you have a copy already from Jund, then play it, but strictly speaking it isn't necessary. It got expensive recently from Eldrazi, so if you don't want to pay for it that's fine. 1/5 of a Lili or 1/3 of a Snap is a better use of your money.
February 2, 2016 10:32 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd OK well my thoughts was instead of Languish I could run Flaying Tendrils for all the quicker aggro decks along with Anger of the Gods and the reason is tendrils kills Etched Champion and anger doesn't. Still bad?
Izzet Staticaster I originally had but I thought soul's betrayal was overall more powerful and I thought I might side out p&k in those faster matchups anyway.
Cryptic Command I love (like everyone) and I know it's tough to cast and that's why I chose to run 1. Alot of these decks run 1-3 counters already. This one is very powerful and versatile as I'm sure I don't need to tell you.
Thought Scour I cut for the Thoughtseize but I guess I could cut the Serum Visions instead.
February 2, 2016 10:56 p.m.
zyphermage says... #8
I think cryptic in the side is fine. The midrange vs control aspect arguments of this deck are mostly irrelevant. The difference between them is not so much. I am only suggesting it to the side not main. Triple blue really isn't that hard especially in some matchups it can be your only answer to not dying. Yes the control version runs more instants and counters in the main and maybe even in the side. All I am saying is you may want a versatile hard counter to things that need countering. Like things that cannot be dealt with once resolved. Even if they do cryptic still buys 1 turn by bouncing it.
February 2, 2016 10:58 p.m. Edited.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd another thing I might add about Cryptic Command: Sometimes you just can't let things resolve. We're blue, counters are super powerful and cryptic generates the most value of any counter.
February 2, 2016 11:01 p.m.
zyphermage says... #10
Yeah i've liked the 4x thoughtscour first before 4x serum visions myself. PLayset of both would be great but there's so much value you have to add that cutting serum visions usually goes down to 2 for me.
February 2, 2016 11:05 p.m.
zyphermage I know there has been some discontent about Cryptic Command in the main but I think I'll try one and if it's clunky and bad I'll move to the side. I just think it's so valuable and powerful and 1 copy shouldn't really be too hard to cast I don't think. Even if it the bounce effect isn't needed often, the card is just insanely versatile and generates so much value, I'd like to test one in the main.
Worst case, I'll move it to side lol. ToolmasterOfBrainerd
February 2, 2016 11:13 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #12
Oh boy. You need 4 Thought Scour. You need 4 Serum Visions. Running Cryptic and Jace in the same deck is not a good idea.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar is removal on a stick. Against faster decks that die to removal, why would you side it out? The tokens can also block pro-red stuff like Etched Champion and Master of Waves.
Izzet Staticaster is a turn faster than Night of Soul's Betrayal and doesn't kill our own stuff. Languish, Damnation, and Engineered Explosives all kill Etched Champion because protection only stops damage, targeting, blocking, and auras, not destruction or -4/-4. Flaying Tendrils is bad because it does less damage than its mana cost. You need your sweepers to do minimum their mana cost to be efficient enough to play.
Blue in Grixis Midrange is for the value of Snapcaster Mage and Jace, not the counterspells. The counterspells you want are Dispels in the sideboard and maybe a few 1-2 mana counters in the main, not Cryptic Command. You can try it out, but please playtest with a proxy before you buy your copy of Cryptic because you'll regret it. It is important as a pilot of a deck to understand why a card is bad. I'd recommend upping the Cryptic Command count (so you draw it often enough to get a good sample size) then playtest against some popular decks and see how it goes. You'll find that in a deck that taps out a lot of the time, it's pretty hard to keep mana up for it in a deck that plays at sorcery speed. For example, if you're playing against Jund and you have a flipped Jace, a PiKi + 2 tokens, and 4 lands with a Terminate in the grave, a Cryptic in hand, and you're at 2 life. You're staring at a board of a Goyf, and you know that if they topdeck a Kommand or a Bolt, you're dead, but if you try to hold up for Cryptic, you'll lose to Goyf inevitably once you run out of tokens to block. Basically, the anti-synergy between Jace and Cryptic is causing you to lose in that scenario because Cryptic is too all-in on draw-go control, which this deck cannot be. If you had, say, a Dispel instead, you'd be just fine because leaving up 1 land is so much easier than leaving up 4. Even in the sideboard, Cryptic is bad. Can you name a matchup where you'd side it in? I know I can't. You really, really, do not want Cryptics in here.
I hope that helps some.
February 2, 2016 11:36 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd I totally understand lol. I'm definitely going to test it and maybe you're right. But I'm going to find out. I just know cryptic is super powerful and versatile and I'd like to run it if possible.
February 3, 2016 1:03 a.m.
zyphermage says... #14
I think you're dogging cryptic way too much. I can come up with a scenario that says it would be good but I'd rather not get super creative right now. Doing stuff on their turn is almost always better then your own. If you could choose to activate a planeswalker on their turn why would you do it on yours? That is the only reason this deck turned to sorcery speed is because of jace. I wouldn't suggest proxying multiples or a playest of cryptic command to test it out, because with that many of course it would feel clunky. But a single cryptic command isn't going to ruin your game enough to not include it. It could even turn the tide in some scenarios. Like people say it's jsut versatility. The option of having an out in your deck, even if it is just 1 of is at least something. If cryptic command was the card you needed as an out that is. I find it hard to believe the sideboard list is so tight as to being against its inclusion so emphatically especially this early in the new modern meta.
zyphermage says... #1
I like what Electrolyze is trying to do and you do only have the one. But Kolaghan's Command has become the 3 cmc 2 for 1. Since you have jace I would add 1x-3x Thoughtseize instead of that and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. 4x Snapcaster Mage is a must unless you only have 3.
February 2, 2016 5:41 p.m.