slovakattack says... #2
Jamesfurrow: Alas, I believe that Green Sun's Zenith is banned in Modern. Elvish Piper looks cool, though. I'll test it out, thanks :3
July 26, 2014 11:59 p.m.
slovakattack says... #3
MetaphysicalxProdigy: I think I might replace Sejiri Steppe with Vault of the Archangel . It'd give me the lifelink I need, without needing to cut a creature/removal spell. It's pretty costly, yeah, but I'll only run into issues regarding life by turn 4-5 anyway.
What do you think?
July 28, 2014 1:21 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #4
Not sure of the price, I know it's up there ($30?) but Horizon Canopy is a staple of many Knight of the Reliquary decks. Often the game grinds out (which is even more common in this deck), and you want to have access to the extra card draw that could find you removal, etc. Some Junk KotR decks even go as far as to play Life from the Loam to keep drawing cards and reusing Tectonic Edge , but that probably isn't the route you want to go.
July 28, 2014 1:27 p.m.
slovakattack says... #5
thispersonisagenius: Oh man, I completely forgot about Horizon Canopy ! It was in an earlier build of this deck, but I guess it just vanished along the way, and I forgot about it. xD
I agree that Life from the Loam isn't really the direction that the deck is going. That's more of a KotR-centric deck. My deck uses her, but doesn't revolve around her.
July 28, 2014 1:45 p.m.
I like it. I can't apply any of your method to the deck Im piloting. +1 Meow. =b.b=
July 28, 2014 8:01 p.m.
slovakattack says... #7
MetaphysicalxProdigy: Having played a full day of matches today, I may actually be inclined to switch out Fauna Shaman for something else, as my deck is quite weak vs. aggro. Do you have any suggestions as to how to remedy that?
July 29, 2014 4:45 a.m.
slovakattack says... #8
MetaphysicalxProdigy: What do you think of something like Courser of Kruphix instead of Fauna Shaman ? I need either some speed or sticking power, because aggro is really getting me xD
(not really Tron/Affinity so much as Jund/Rogue)
July 29, 2014 5 a.m.
slovakattack says... #9
I'm actually gonna test a build that replaces Fauna Shaman with Lotleth Troll and Thoughtseize with Inquisition of Kozilek . I've been finding a lot that my most optimal choices for a T1-T2 discard are 1-3 CMC anyway , so paying the 2 life may just not be worth it in the end.
Lotleth Troll lacks the tutoring abilities of shaman, but he retains the discard bonus that she gives, and gets big, fast if I want him to.
July 29, 2014 12:39 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #10
If you're only going to play 3-4 discard spells, they need to be Thoughtseize in this sort of deck. I can see a hyper-aggro deck only playing IoK, but that's when the only cards you want to let them cast cost 3 or less. This deck will let them hit four mana, so Thoughtseize is the way to go. If the life becomes a legitimate issue, play some Obstinate Baloth or Kitchen Finks .
Lotleth Troll seems a like a fine, fitting card to add to this build.
July 29, 2014 12:43 p.m.
MetaphysicalxProdigy says... #11
I agree with thispersonisagenius about keeping thoughtseize over IoK. The 2 life penalty does suck but you will usually be in each game for the long haul. If you were rushing your opponent, you could use IoK because you wouldn't be giving them the time to cast their bigger spells anyways. And even then, aggro players running discard would still probably use thoughtseize over it since the life loss is negligible.
Vault of the Archangel seems like a good move. You now have a lifegain engine.
Finks is pretty solid against aggro. I would probably consider them over Courser of Kruphix , albeit the courser does have a little bit of synergy with KotR. Since you need many variables for Courser + KotR to line up, however, and in an aggro match you probably don't have the time, I would consider finks instead.
If aggro really is a problem, then Finks or even Blind Obedience could work. I mentioned Obedience earlier as a long-term solution, since it harms aggro and helps your mid+late game with extort. You would also be surprised by the number of artifacts you can hold off for a turn that would normally be tapped right away. Before you consider either of these, however, you should ensure you have done some solid playtesting against some of the major archetypes in modern and see what current cards appear the least relevant and can be swapped.
These lists include:
Aggro: Affinity, RDW, Jund, UR Aggro, Merfolk, Junk, Hatebear/Soul Sisters, Zoo, Bogle, Tokens.
Control: Tron, UWx Midrange, Rock, Faeries, Gift Control, and I guess Mono-Black Control.
Combo: Pod, Twin Exarch, Scapehift, Infect, Storm, Living End, Bloom Titan, Genesis Wave/Elves.
And finally, Lotleth Troll seems like he could be solid in your deck. The only problem I see with him is to get any real use, you may find yourself discarding creatures that would have been far more useful on the battlefield than sitting in the graveyard - unless of course these are knights and you are using Haakon with certainty. And even then, the knights themselves may be more powerful than just the troll. The troll is certainly a great card in the right deck, but you may find him backfiring or not connecting as well as you would have liked. Fauna Shaman at least nets you something in return for a discard; the troll only makes himself a little stronger, and with the discard pool he isn't overly synergistic.
I could certainly see the troll used to great extent in a junk Zombie/Knight tribal-heavy build. I kind of built something similar with a recent list called Darth Knights, however the link won't work :(. You can see how well the troll would fit in there if it splashed green (which I may well do).
Obviously the best, most relevant modern 2 drops (Bob and Goyf) aren't appropriate for this list since they are so damn expensive. Putrid Leech is potentially game-breaking, if you have the life for it. Thalia is strong, especially against aggro, but she may become irrelevant in the long game. There is always Tidehollow Sculler , and then finally Gravecrawler synergizes with your engine, as well as Haakon, mutavault, extort, and any other zombies.
July 30, 2014 6:58 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #12
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is probably the most bomb two-drop you can play in this deck within some sort of budget, closely followed by Voice of Resurgence . Both provide a very powerful advantage, and serve as lightning rods against control so you can keep your real threats in play.
July 30, 2014 7:07 p.m.
slovakattack says... #13
MetaphysicalxProdigy: I may actually put in Voice of Resurgence over Lotleth Troll or Kitchen Finks . At the end of the day, I need that 'slot' to be a lightning rod for removal, and Voice of Resurgence seems best suited to that. (thanks thispersonisagenius!)
I love Thalia, Guardian of Thraben but this deck is very control-ey, so I feel like i'd be screwing myself just as hard as I'd be screwing my opponent.
I may also kick the Hero of Bladehold for a 3rd Liliana of the Veil . It's becoming clear to me that it is no coincidence that most of the games in which I have stomped have been the ones in which I was able to get out a T3 Lili. My budget will hate me, but...
Oh, also: As cool an Idea as Crib Swap was, in testing I found it to be lackluster and not worth driving up my CMC, as I only have 2 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge anyway.
July 31, 2014 1 p.m.
slovakattack says... #14
MetaphysicalxProdigy, thispersonisagenius, safearus, let me drop this one on you guys: Voice of Resurgence vs. Oona's Prowler . (in place of Lotleth Troll . He just doesn't have enough value for his cost.)
Pros to Voice: Better stall, more hard 'value' for mana cost.
Pros to Prowler: Resonably high value; discard engine for Haakon, Stromgald Scourge .
July 31, 2014 10:48 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #15
This is actually really good, the only two things I have issues with it are the planeswalkers, and the sideboard cards that are in the mainboard.
Liliana of the Veil is no longer as good ever since the Deathrite Shaman ban. So I think you would be better off with something like Inquisition of Kozilek . And I don't like planeswalkers in modern anyways. The only exception is in U/W/x control decks. I used to think any B/G/x deck as well, be since the DShaman got hit by the ban hammer, this is no longer the case.
Finally, I think you have a bit too many sideboard in mainboard cards. Probably should just go two of each, so drop Qasali Pridemage and Voice of Resurgence both by one.
That leaves you with 5 spots. It seems that your turn one game either consists of AEther Vial , or Thoughtseize . So am unsure if you want to run [nquisition of Kozilek as well. Personally, I would up Thoughtseize OR Abrupt Decay by one, and add in 4x Sign in Blood for the draw. If you don't like the double black, Night's Whisper also works, but you can't kill your opponent with it. Other than that, you could just put in 3x Sign in Blood and one of both Thoughtseize and Abrupt Decay. Your choice.
Now for your land. I'm iffy on 22 land, even with full playsets of vial and reliq knight. Personally, I'd chop down 1 of AEther Vial and Knight of the Reliquary as well, but that is personal taste. I also really like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Mana Confluence now because of the ability to evade the life loss. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth would also really help fix your black for you, making all your fetches and utility lands that much stronger. However, if you include the chopping of the planeswalkers, your total cmc is lowered much more, so it may just be a few percentage difference that I'm worrying about.
So if I was to combine everything ... that is 7 slots. Here is a run down of what I would do:
Remove:
Add:
Sideboard? ... I don't know ... Okay, you already have lots of anti-blue cards, Spellskite
, Voice of Resurgence
and Cavern of Souls
. I don't think you need more with Choke
. And if you include the above suggestions, then you don't need the Thoughtseize
in the side anymore. So I would put in instead ... 2x Aven Mindcensor
and 1x Maelstrom Pulse
. I also really like Mana Confluence
with Spellskite
, but that's just me, and I don't know any other changes I would make to your already strained mana base.
August 1, 2014 4:45 p.m.
slovakattack says... #16
Femme_Fatale: I totally hear what you're saying land-wise, I'll probably bump the count to 23 and add a Confluence and Uborg. Actually, now that I think about it, I agree with pretty much everything you've suggested- save for one thing: Removing Liliana. The issue that I don't think you've considered with removing Liliana is that I need some sort of discard engine in place for Haakon, Stromgald Scourge . I can still play him with AEther Vial , yes, but with -1 Vial and no Liliana, the chance of him becoming a dead drop in my hand is quite large. (and uuugh, I so wish Deathrite Shaman would get unbanned, I know he'd be damn near perfect for this deck... but Jund exists. Jund is the Ruiner. :c )
Perhaps there is a more efficient discard option that you can suggest?
I'd of course be happy to take out Liliana with another option availabe.
August 1, 2014 6:24 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #17
Fauna Shaman is the only thing modern viable that comes to mind. I'll find other things as I do more refined gatherer searches.
August 1, 2014 6:51 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #18
And yeah, I got nothing else. I was looking for additional cost cards with discard but got nothing surprisingly. Other options may be Undertaker or Trading Post but I hardly think those are modern worthy additions.
August 1, 2014 6:56 p.m.
slovakattack says... #19
Femme_Fatale: I hear ya. That's one of the reasons that I'm excited for Khans. Hopefully they'll bring more support to the Junk wedge! I may keep Liliana in for now as a discard engine, but I'll definitely tweak the ratios of the other aspects of the deck.
I actually used Fauna Shaman in place of Voice of Resurgence awhile ago, funnily enough, and found that she was a bit slow to fill that slot. Maybe I just had her in the wrong slot?
August 1, 2014 6:59 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #20
I have no idea where you would put Fauna Shaman if you included all of my other suggestions above. Maybe take a Abrupt Decay and a Sign in Blood out? That is my best guess. You'll need the 4 discards because of no Lili discard, and Sign in Blood wouldn't be that needed as much if you had a tutor. And having Fauna Shaman also strengthens my idea of lowering the creatures, because now you have a tutor.
August 1, 2014 7:08 p.m.
slovakattack says... #21
Femme_Fatale: Good point about the lowering creatures. If I had the money, I'd just go 4 Bob for draw, but... shrug
I'll shuffle a few things around based on your reccomendations, and see how it feels. This may be just the boost my deck has needed, thank you!
August 1, 2014 7:09 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #22
Don't go bob. Worst idea for this deck. Bob works yes, but the amount of life loss these days isn't a good idea. You have your deck at over 25% 3-4 cmc cards. So your turn 3 plan will have lost you like, 9 life already. You also have nothing to sac the bob should things go awry, so they can just sit happily letting him through or blocking him with 0 toughness creatures while you frequently take 3 to the face.
August 1, 2014 7:14 p.m.
slovakattack says... #23
Femme_Fatale: Ah yeah, now that you mention it if I did that, I'd have to change the whole deck. Well, I can't shell out for him anyway, so it's kind of a moot point- albeit an excellently made one.
August 1, 2014 7:21 p.m.
MetaphysicalxProdigy says... #25
Hey man, just wanted to say I'm really impressed with how your deck is coming. It gets better and better each time I see it. It looks like Fauna Shaman is back in, this seems like it could be a good call. :) she really does seem like the ideal tutor for junk knights.
Also thought I would mention, I discovered the other day there have been some Haakon lists played competitively in modern, some being BGW but most seeming to be RB, where Burning Vengeance and Faithless Looting are comboed to great effect with Haakon (also with attrition spells like Smallpox and Raven's Crime , as well as dredge mechanics like Stinkweed Imp and Darkblast ). Lists that used RGB used Life from the Loam to great effect with Burning Vengeance , as a slightly better retrace-loam alternative to Seismic Assault . Seemed interesting so thought I would share - I may try making my own BR Haakon list.
You should post some results in the deck description of how your list handles against the major decks of the modern meta (UWx, pod, affinity, tron, rdw, storm, scapeshift, twin, and fae), so people who try to pilot your list have an idea of how to use it as they play. It will also help better refine your sideboard as you choose round 2 & 3 hate spells.
And I know that your sideboard is pretty solid at this point, but I just can't help saying that 1x Bojuka Bog (although tutorable) might not be enough. If you can find the space, I would add a single Nihil Spellbomb to your side. Graveyards are just accessed so frequently in modern, and this card replaces itself for the same cost as Relic of Progenitus but it doesn't harm your own field. As much as I adore Pithing Needle , it may be more economical to side them out for one bomb and probably one Stony Silence (very strong vs affinity and tron, also stops pod).
MetaphysicalxProdigy says... #1
@Jamesfurrow, I would say that Dark Tutelage is inferior to Phyrexian Arena , and there are a lot of 3cmc cards here already. Bob is more ideal since he's a 2 drop and a creature, but his $ price is too steep. Green Sun's Zenith is banned in modern and none of the others really fit with the attrition theme.
@slovakattack, never used that one before man. BBB seems too heavy. I would probably just use Extirpate , Cranial Extraction or Memoricide before it. Following up a discard with extirpate or a same turn Surgical Extraction is an amazing one-two punch for specific threats. Those 1cmc exiles let you hit non-basic lands too, which is great vs tron.
July 26, 2014 8 p.m.