Hey man hope you see this. I like the deck, I did the commanders quarters budget deck and was impressed. Now I want to make big upgrades, but some cards listed are out of my budget + I do not want that infinite combo of crackdown + ornithopter. If you see this, some feedback would be appreciated! https://archidekt.com/decks/292662

You could go more all in on stax as a way to stop interaction. Since after you've got your commander on board and the ability to throw stuff in your yard, you don't really cast spells too much apart from protection.

Damping Sphere, Thorn of Amethyst, Defense Grid, Mana Web type spells make you much harder to interact with while you punch face.

Ensnaring Bridge, Meekstone and Crawlspace don't affect you at all, but can stop people sending retaliation hits your way after you kill an opponent.

Generic stax like Null Rod, Grafdigger's Cage and Torpor Orb have the potential to absolutely hose your opponents and do almost nothing to you.

As far as non-stax pieces go, Karn, the Great Creator can get back any of your ARTIFACT combo pieces that have been exiled. Nothing better than winning with your Dreadnought after someone has exiled your graveyard. Mystic Sanctuary is an island that can get you a counterspell/tutor back after you use it.

I'm tempted to build a deck similar to this, but with a couple sneaky Lab Man wincons just incase.

Hi _Putrefax and thanks for your suggestions!

I see where you are going with your stax pieces, but it is not necessarily the direction that I want to take. Damping Sphere does not have that much of an impact in Commander, apart from hurting storm strategies. Thorn of Amethyst has a similar effect, but it hoses me even worse. I have very limited mana resources, and every single mana is extremely important for me. I like Defense Grid a little bit more because, as you said, it makes me much harder to interact with. However, I am not a huge fan of these symmetrical effects. I have many instants in this deck, and the grid neuters my ability to interact with my opponents.

I really like, however, Mana Web. It either slows my opponents' gameplans or limits their interaction. Most importantly, it's effect is asymmetrical. I don't get hurt by it, and I like it a lot. I will be considering the Web for sure.

I have never had a great experience with either Meekstone and Crawlspace. Every time I have played those cards, they have never had that much of an impact on the game in my favour. I have never thought about Ensnaring Bridge, but I guess it makes sense. I can control Lazav's power at will and I don't have too many cards in hand, so it's worth the try.

Null Rod is actually unplayable for us. With it on the board, if Lazav ever becomes an artifact creature (and he will, considering our wincon creatures are artifacts), we won't be able to activate his ability again as long as the Rod stays on the board.

Karn, the Great Creator's effect is, once again, asymmetrical and can be taken into consideration. I particularly like his -2 ability, which is probably our only way of getting back any of our win conditions if they ever get exiled. I don't have too many available slots, but I hope I can squeeze it in somewhere.

As for Mystic Sanctuary, I admit I had underestimated it. One of my friends actually won a few games thanks to it, although with a completely different deck (Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow), where it makes even more sense. Still, I can't get around lands that have the chance to come into play tapped, and lands that must be considered more like a spell. To give you an example, I hate Bojuka Bog so much so that I don't play it in any of my decks. If I want graveyard hate stapled on a land I go for Scavenger Grounds, despite it being symmetrical. This is because Bojuka Bog, like Mystic Sanctuary, is more of a spell than a land. In the early game, I simply can't play them because it would be a waste. This means that, if in my first few turns of the game I have three lands in hand and one of them is a Bog or Sanctuary, then I have virtually just two lands. And if I am forced to play them immediately, it's a huge tempo loss since they come into play tapped. These kind of cards need to be drawn at the right time, otherwise they will be stuck in hand for an indefinite amount of time. Scavenger Grounds, on the contrary, can be played immediately with no downside and can be activated whenever we need. Of course I am not playing Scavenger Grounds in a Lazav deck, but this is just to explain you my line of thought. For these reasons, I would rather play Snapcaster Mage or Mission Briefing over Mystic Sanctuary.

I am really curious to see what Laboratory Maniac wincons you will be throwing in, because I kind of need an "I-Win-The-Game" emergency plan. Can you please link your build once it's ready?

Thanks again for your suggestions. Cheers!

The difficulty in using Lab Man in this deck is that almost all the quick combos just exile cards, so you're kinda neutered if it goes wrong. But you could pretty easily throw in Lab Man, any cheap creature that has an ability to draw a card somehow, and Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact.

I probably wouldn't go for that win unless the traditional wins have been shut down somehow, but if they are the combo would be as follows;

• Lazav as a copy of a creature that somehow draws a card, be it activated ability or triggered somehow doesn't really matter.

• In response to the draw ability, cast Pact or Consultation to mill your whole deck.

• In response to the draw trigger again, activate Lazav to become a copy of Lab Man. Make sure to hold up your protection for this spot here so you don't kill yourself

Any thoughts on using fetch lands to thin the deck out?

Yes, absolutely. Never been a huge fan of fetchlands in 1-2 colour EDH decks due to their price and their marginal impact, but it would definitely be an upgrade. Not a one I would necessarily make, but if I had some I would include them for sure.

Thank you for the reply, I'm absolutely in love with this deck. I think I'm going to try it in my play group eventually, and we allow proxies. Are there any other changes you would want to make to upgrade the deck if money wasn't an issue?

I've been playing Lazav, attmpeting to make a highly optimized anti-competitive lost, and have got this, let me know what you think

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/lazavs-assassination-contract/

That's a good question. The deck is already pretty high-tuned, as you can't find any better alternatives to the likes of Mana Crypt and Force of Will, which are already included. Maybe you could go deeper on mana acceleration to make your turn 2-3 kills more consistent, but I wouldn't go for that route as the deck would become more all-in than it already is. I'm talking about the cEDH staples Mox Diamond and Lion's Eye Diamond. These cards will allow you to knock one player out by turn 2 with a godlike hand, but at a very high cost: your entire hand. After that, you would be defenseless against your other two opponents.

Some upgrades I would definitely make are Imperial Seal and Grim Tutor, which are the two best tutors apart from Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor. I would also like to experiment with a good old Yawgmoth's Will, as a way to get more value out of the draw spells we already cast.

Thank you so much, super excited to test your creation out!!

Neat deck, I like the switcheroo sort of strategy. I'm not the most familiar with EDH, but I finally made a deck, and I run Mirror of Fate due to some of my cards exiling themselves, and my play group sending more cards to exile than graveyard. Might be something for you to consider, but I don't know if it would have enough value for your deck (I'm running it in an artifact recursion + self exile deck, so I get plenty of value).

I know my friends can be kind of wary of anything that may constitute infinite comboing, is there a lower power version of Crackdown Construct I can use when I play with them?

You have a few options. You can go with the less powerful Phage the Untouchable, Eater of Days or Phyrexian Obliterator. Another alternative could also be Virtus the Veiled or Ebonblade Reaper, which would be my preferred pick. However, even if you want to cut Crackdown Construct, please keep Ornithopter in because of its great utility regardless of the combo.

Thank you so much! That's incredibly helpful!

Hello there! The deck looks great and with a lot of tricks to master to be effective at the table, which is something I really like.

That said I'm a bit confused about some of the interactions tho: for example when you talk about the Wall of Blood + Banehound tech to get your life back with Lifelink how do you do it exactly? Because in my mind when you transform into the Wall in the damage step put on the stack 21 Wall triggers and then, on top of that, the ability to change into Banehound so you become a 22/22 Lazav/Banehound, but I don't know if I got it right.

Also in the Crackdown Construct + Ornithopter how should I stack all the effects?

Hey!

It's ok to be a little confused because those interactions are quite tricky, but you actually got them right.

At any time during combat, as long as you have priority, you can transform Lazav into Wall of Blood. You will do this after the declare attackers step once you have already attacked with the base 1/3 Lazav, because walls cannot attack. After the declare blockers step, you can activate the Wall's ability as many times as you like by paying life (generally, 20 is enough as Banehound is a 1 power creature). It's important to note that this +20/+20 buff will last until the end of turn, as Wall's rules text states. This means that you are then free to shift form as many times as you like without loosing your investment. Holding priority, you pay to turn Lazav into the Banehound. At the end of the day, you will have a 21/21 Lazav/Banehound with lifelink ready to deal lethal amount of damage during the combat damage step. This is just the base scenario, with Lazav not affected by summoning sickness and the opponent not having any blockers. If you have any specific need (e.g. you need to give Lazav haste or evasion), you can work with your commander's ability accordingly. If you need haste, pay to turn Lazav into the Banehound before the beginning of combat step, then do the rest (pay and 20 life for the Wall, then again for the Hound). If you need evasion, pay for Invisible Stalker before the declare blockers step, and so on and so forth.

The Construct + Ornithopter combo works exactly the same way, the only thing is that we have way more triggers to put on the stack (but it doesn't matter, as they are free in terms of mana). Pay to turn Lazav into Crackdown Construct. Then, pay to turn him into the Ornithopter. The Construct's ability will trigger, giving Lazav +1/+1 until the end of turn. In response, pay again for the Ornithopter and keep doing this as many times as you like. Once you have finished, Lazav will eventually become a 0/2 Ornithopter with flying but retaining all the buffs from its previous form until the end of turn.

This is a little convoluted because it requires some knowledge of how the combat phase works and how to use the stack, but I've tried my best to explain it in a -hopefully- comprehensive way.

Thanks a lot for the answer! It's really appreciated!

Hey!

I guess I'm in love with your primer and your deck :D I'm also a huge fan of the "new" Lazav and I've tried different builds from surveil, to pure combo and now I'm trying the more control build. In my opinion it is the most efficient build for my meta. Since I'm playing Lazav, the amount of graveyard hate is increasing, so I guess countermagic is key. Your decklist was a big inspiration for me. Thanks a lot!

Do you have any tips for piloting this kind of Lazav deck? Do you use politics to survive the early/midgame? Every time I play Lazav, I become target no.1 :(

What is your opinion about running Laboratory Maniac / Jace, Wielder of Mysteries as a second win con in case the voltron strategy doesn't work? I'm also running cards like Mirror-Mad Phantasm and Mesmeric Orb + Basalt Monolith for the self-mill strategy. Have you ever considered such "combo" win cons for your deck?

I've also noticed that you are running only a few mana rocks. Do you always have enough mana available to change Lazav to the creature you need?

Have you ever tried Perplex as a counterspell? This card looks pretty interesting and I'll playtest it as soon as my playgroup can meet again.

Do you have some advices for my build? I'm always up for improvements and tips :) http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/lazav-with-the-many-faces/

Hey there!

Thanks for your kind words, I really appreciate!

The best tip I can ever give you is to play patiently. If you play Lazav on turn 2 and threaten a kill on turn 3/4, you will inevitably become target no. 1. People will team up against you because they don't know who you are going to knock out first, so they will start throwing all their removal spells at you. From that spot, it would be annoying for you to restart because Lazav would cost you two more mana and you would soon be behind. Instead, my advice is to do absolutely nothing for the first 5/6 turns of the game. Represent countermagic even when you have none, or simply loot a little bit without exposing yourself too much (that is, don't throw Phyrexian Dreadnought or its friends in the graveyard during the first few turns of the game for no reason). Don't even play your commander until the mid game. Simply wait for the game to develop as normal. Other players will ramp, draw some cards, and start doing what their decks want to do. At some point, one player will inevitably be ahead of the rest due to a better start, and that's when you are going to strike. The best way not to become the public enemy at the table is to let someone else do so. Once one of your opponents is too ahead, the other players will see him/her as the threat and start focussing on him/her. This is the moment when you can start playing your commander and develop your own gameplan. This is Dimir at its best: waiting in the shadows for the perfect moment to strike, when your opponents are slaughtering each other. This is by far the strategy that has given me the most success.

As for politics, I seldom propose to oneshot the most dangerous player if my opponents let me untap on my next turn. Sometimes it works, but they know very well that if I manage to untap they are dead a few moments later. As such, I don't rely on politics too much because it would be unrealistic for me to count on my opponents' loyalty.

As regards Laboratory Maniac and its kind, it is something I'm considering. Oftentimes I find myself needing an "I-win-the-game" emergency plan, because the voltron strategy is rather slow and fragile. There is, however, a risk that keeps me from going that route. Once you start winning with that combo, you will eventually realise how much easier it is to win a game like that. It's an insta-win, so you don't have to kill each player one at the time. My biggest fear is that the voltron plan would then become a secondary plan, and that it would eventually disappear in favour of more cards dedicated to the LabMan strategy. Finding the right balance between cards that support the voltron plan and others dedicated to the LabMan combo will be hard, but I'm thinking about it. However, if I were to include the Maniac, I would certainly go for a Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact package instead of a self-mill strategy. It is way faster.

I've never had any mana issue with 5 mana rocks and 35 lands, as the average CMC of the deck is very low. Lazav's ability, however, is pretty mana-intensive, especially if we are forced to change form multiple times in response to something an opponent is doing. For this reason I can perfectly see you including more mana rocks, just to have more room in case something goes wrong. Mind Stone and Arcane Signet are obvious inclusions, but I can also see something more expensive like a Thran Dynamo work.

Perplex doesn't impress me too much. For a three-mana counterspell, I expect something extremely powerful to justify the 1-cost increase. And while the transmute ability is somewhat useful, there aren't too many good targets at three mana in our deck. The best ones would be Buried Alive and Intuition, but it would then become a tutor for a tutor. A bit too complex, in my opinion. And by the way, Commander 2020 gave us the best counterspell that we could have ever hoped for: Fierce Guardianship, which for us is even better than the almighty Force of Will.

I'll be checking your decklist and give some feedback as soon as I can.

Cheers!

Hey!

Thanks for your answer! Ok, I guess I'm far to aggressive with my play style and need to slow down. :) Yes, I think you are right with Perplex. The best card I could tutor with it is Laboratory Maniac.

Fierce Guardianship is really an incredible card! I was so happy when I saw the spoiler. What do you think about the black spell Deadly Rollick? I'm not sure if it is too expensive with a CMC of 4. The effect itself is still pretty good. But I'm very happy that they gave us a new card for Lazav! I'll definitively check the spoilers to see if there are more interesting cards we could us.

Deadly Rollick is on the same power level of Fierce Guardianship. Never mind the 4 CMC, as it will be 0 90% of the times. The exile effect is huge, especially in black where it is quite rare. It is definitely a card worth including, and it will probably replace Reality Shift or Price of Fame.

As far as the other new cards, I'm quite keen on Netherborn Altar. It's an awesome way of skipping the commander tax, which is extremely important for a deck so focused around its general.

I'll be updating the primer as soon as all the spoilers from Ikoria end. There won't be any drastic changes, but do expect a few upgrades!