Most of your spells require red sources yet you run more green sources than red ones. Why is that? Seems like your land base would be more consistent with fewer forests.

Because, it is imperative that I have at least ONE green mana generator in starting hand so that I can have turn 2 land destruction. Utilizing Utopia Sprawl , Birds of Paradise , (as well as Stomping Ground , allows me to have the reds and other colors at turn 2, which covers my demand for red. So, as long as have one green, I can tap into all the 1 cost mana ramp

Basically, it is for consistent mana ramp. The mana ramp is useless without at least one green.

As long as I have access to 1 green, a red, and mana ramp in starting hand, I'm good. Which was the struggle for this deck: to have this perfect starting hand consistently.

(which it by probability, I only get this PERFECT hand 76 percent of the time.)

The only card that feels the least necessary in this deck is Sun Droplet . Though I see it's value a lot do you think it's more worth to have 4 of that card instead of 3 of Sun Droplet and 2 Consuming Aberration

Sun Droplet is horrid. It's just a worse Ajani's Mantra , and i don't see it having a place in this deck. The only deck i'd justify including it in was soul sisters, and even then it's very iffy. You only remove a counter at a time so it's gaining you less than 1 life a turn. I'd say that you're short on lands. I understand that you have 8 1-drop rampers, but Birds of Paradise are fragile, and you leave yourself open to some brutal Smallpox es. Mana Leak is also very dodgy with your current manabase. As i said, birds are fragile, and your first Utopia Sprawl should be going towards red. 18 lands is also not many when you're playing 4 and 5-drops. I honestly think taking out 4 droplets, 3 Forest and a Mountain and adding 4 Misty Rainforest (if you can afford them), 2 Scalding Tarn (again), 2 Breeding Pool and a Steam Vents would drastically help your mana and your deck in general.

Kingsorin, thanks for the comments.

Sorry, I speak in essays. I want to try to cover all your points and give a proper argument.

Sun Droplet though, I must say is beautiful.Every person I have faced has misunderstood that card so I'll explain it while defending its ability's value in my deck.

Sun Droplet only costs two mana. Easy to get out. It also gains me a life for 'EACH' upkeep, double check the text, which makes it better than Ajani's Mantra . Though I have to take damage, it saves my hide when I face this deck's weaknesses: buff decks, 1 cost burn decks that are littered with small creatures. With gain a life for every upkeep, meaning 2 by the time its my turn, it really cuts down the damage of small pokes and burns. If I didn't have them, I would stand no chance to buffs and fast red decks (speaking from experience) It basically gives me about 4 extra turns before I die, which is plenty for me to shift into my 4-5 cmc lando creatures which easily fend off the little dudes, even if it means sacrificing them selves to do so.

The reason I have 4, is because if I get two of them on the field, I get 4 life by my next turn, 3 of them and no burn deck has gotten through that. 2 Sun Droplet s alone really screw over burn decks and set back buff decks long enough for my big dogs to come out: Consuming Aberration , Deus of Calamity , Acidic Slime , Progenitor Mimic , and so on. They can't handel these beasts because they only have 1 or 2 lands.

Funny you mention Sun Droplet , I just asked someone on this site about how it works just to verify even though it is also how my tournament people use it.

Here is the thread and you'll see its value.

"The card Sun Droplet s ability: how does putting counters for being dealt damage work? Please give me an example to explain?"

hmm for some reason it won't link but you can hunt for it if you are really interested.

Ill paste what they said:

Epochalyptik says... #1

You get one counter per point of damage dealt to you. The hint is in the phrase "that many," which indicates that the amount of damage is equal to the number of counters.

3 damage from one source gives three counters.

2 damage from three sources gives six counters.

Drilnoth says... Accepted answer #2

If you take damage, you put counters on Sun Droplet equal to the amount of damage you take. If a 3/3 hits you, it will get 3 counters (assuming none of the damge is prevented). If three 2/2s each hit you, it will get 6 counters.

About my land ratios, or economics as I like to call it...It is the least amount I can have, while being able to feel confidant that I'll get my perfect starting had: 1 green, 1 red, and 1 mana ramp with a 3cmc lando. I do agree, I am short on lands, so when I get 3 mana I know I'll draw land destruction more often than lands. The economic ratios I have are the best I can do to ensure that I have turn 2 lando, and lando thereafter continually. The ratios are so fragile, that if I add a mere 1 more land, I kid you not will *&% my deck over. I will draw that one land and not a land destroyer that will give them a turn to put another land down (early game) and I'm finished.

About my fragile Birds of Paradise , and Mana Leak ... I must say that they are fine (again speakin from xp). I have faced many burn decks, because they are really trying to beat me. Yah, they get torched often. But, 9/10 times, I get to use the birds at least once. Then after it gets burned, my next mana draw usually covers for it (rather fluidly). Again, I have the minimum land draw ratios so occasionally I do not draw that land and they grow for a turn. But that's what Sun Droplet is for. Rather I make Sun Droplet a land? Well, it works out end game to have Sun Droplet more-so than another land. My biggest expense is 6cmc.

Mana Leak is really good, especially because I am a red/green deck with a pinch of blue. It catches them off guard and I block fatties, or really threatening items late game. Also I have gotten buff decks turn 2 with it and blocked their only hexproof critter in their hand. Usually a couple turns pass before they get another to buff up and by then I have begun converting into my 4-5cmc guys. It also is just an option that I may run into (I only have 2 in deck.) I have 2 more leaks in my sideboard in the case I face a control deck. Which, by the way, stands no chance against this deck because they need so much mana and multiple colors usually. If I do lose control over a control deck, (haha control a control,) mana leak allows me to counter a counter so that I can get a land destroying combo out and secured: such as Progenitor Mimic copying Acidic Slime , or some other land destroyer, which destroys a land every turn on top of my normal lando draw rate.

So there you have it. if you still disagree, please defend your side, I like to here another point you may have (I may be dead wrong and not know it, or you give me a good idea that I would have never thought of, so please discuss further if you can.)

I disagree with the fetchlands, but I am considering Breeding Pool and Steam Vents . Mainly, Breeding Pool because I still get my green assurance for my starting hand while getting a blue so my Utopia Sprawl s can cover red and I can get stuff like Progenitor Mimic out or use Mana Leak and have turn 2 lando more reliably.

But, I can't enchant Steam Vents s because Utopia Sprawl only enchants 'forests.'

Though, that's what good fetchlands would be...hmmm but they cost me more life and usually I barely get by because of my Sun Droplet helping me along against burn or buff decks... Paying life does not put counters on Sun Droplet so...

I'm considering it, thanks for the ideas. Please continue (anyone) to splatter my page with ideas. (please do so.)

I'm still not sold on the land count. Skip to the fact zone if you don't feel like reading the calculations. (http://brokestream.com/mtg.html) this helps calculate land probabilities. It shows that the chance of you having 1-3 lands in your opening hand is 80%. Now, we should subtract 6 from your lands, as you want a turn-1 green source. This reduces the chance to 78%. You have a 65% chance of drawing a 1-drop manaramper in your opening hand:(http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15270-Land-draw-statistical-odds), now this table http://bopmtg.net/misc/mana-tables helps if you're over-lapping probabilities. On the first table (single manabase failure for turn 1), it shows that if you draw a card that you have 8 of (sprawl and BoP), that if you have 12 lands of that colour, 12% of the time your mana will fail. So 65% (chance of drawing birds or sprawl) minus 12% of 65% (chance of failure) equals 88% of 65% equals 57.2%. This means in just over half of your games you will get a turn-1 forest into birds/sprawl. This isn't taking into account the chances that your birds will be removed or if you ever get a second land. Keep in mind that these statistics are for looking at your opening hand. If you're on the draw you get another card, but you don't know what that card is. (The chances of drawing a land off a 1-lander are 32% in your deck). The chances of (on the play) having a Stone Rain , Molten Rain or Fulminator Mage by turn 2 are 75%, so 75% of 57.2% is 42.9%. This means in less than half of your games you will have turn 1 ramper into turn 2 land-kill. People can do a lot in 2 turns. Whether it's kill your mana-dork, Thoughtseize a key piece to your deck, hold up Mana Leak or Remand , set up Birthing Pod etc. You can stop your opponent getting 2 mana turn 2 much more consistently (if you're on the play) by taking up the land-count to 20. At 20 land, you have a 95% chance of a land in the opening (2% more), and with fetches, you could essentially have 19 green sources. (Scalding Tarn is essentially a green shock-land and Misty Rainforest can fetch a forest.) With 19 green sources, the chance for a failed green source when you draw a birds/sprawl lowers from 12% to 5%. This improves the 57.2% to 61% (out of a possible 65%). Now, combining this number with the Fulminator Mage , Stone Rain and Molten Rain number brings us to 45.75%, as opposed to 42.9%. Let's take a look back on the facts.

• You are 13% more-likely to have a forest in your opener with my method. (from 80% to 93%)
  
• This translates to a 7% higher chance that if you draw a birds or sprawl, that you will get a forest. (88% to 95%)
  
• This means that the chances of getting turn 1 green into birds increases by 4% (57% to 61%)
  
• Your "god draw" of turn 1 green into birds into 3-mana landkill increases by 2.85% (42.9% to 45.75%)
  This doesn't even take into account the higher saturation of green when 8 of your 3-mana land-killers need double-red.
  
• My land-base means you have 5 more green-sources, 6 more red-sources, and 11 blue-sources.
  
• Downsides: You will be taking more damage from your lands. Blood Moon is more brutal. I must say that your deck can adapt to it pretty well though, and to come to think of it, i think you should be running them, as turn-2 blood moon = win, and then you can blow up whatever basics they try to put out.

I'll admit, i did misread Sun Droplet . It's better than i thought, and i think Talisman of Impulse would work well if you want to keep it, but I hope my essay was enough to convince you otherwise. I think a little bit of life is less important than consistent early draws. If you're insistent on keeping them, i'd say that Progenitor Mimic is the next card i'd ditch. I know, 1 land-kill a turn is insane, but you don't need it. If you've got to that point you should be winning already. It comes out hilariously late with only 18 land, and i think that your other win-cons do a fine job already.

Yeah, strongly agreeing with KingSorin here. Also, seems real weak to aggro. If they hit a goyf or curve out it looks like you're in trouble.

Hmmmmm, I am very glad you, KingSorin, gave me the sites of the probability and statistic calculations. I am absorbing all of your ideas, and thanks for the effort. I will now entrench myself with math homework and calculate the best land draw probabilities while trying to maintain my end game tactics.

You are right, Progenitor Mimic does come out very late. But turn 6, which would be end game for most people, is my deck just 'gettin goin.' They don't have enough lands to be too threatening so I have plenty of time to grow. Turns go by very quickly and I'm usually at turn 8-10 when I really start to come in for the kill (or turn 5 if I get lucky or they rage quit.) By this time my enemy is terribly/completely crippled and I have plenty of mana, or time to get the mana, at this point to bring out my artillery, even though I have 18 lands. Plus I do have the 8 ramp cards, so total I have 26 mana sources which is basically an equivalent to the draw rate as if I had 26 lands. I usually have plenty of mana by turn 8 (usually.) If not, as I said before, they are crippled enough for me to sit around and wait for the mana to come (while keeping them at their knees by hitting their land draws once and a while.) I strongly feel like keeping Progenitor Mimic . He has saved me from some interesting situations and he is a beasty artillery piece that ensures victory end game. If you still disagree please share your thoughts...

I am strongly considering your mana suggestions: you made 'very' good points. I am also warming up to the idea of using the fetchlands. You made a point that I 'will be taking more damage from my lands.' But it may be worth it. If I can more consistently have them at their knees, then losing a few life points here and there is totally acceptable.........................

My thoughts on what Arsene said:As I said in my deck description, aggro is one of my deck's weaknesses. However, stuff like Tarmogoyf in my opinion are usually not a threat. I get pelted by that critter, Tarmogoyf for example, by almost everyone at the tournament I go to (have no idea how they can afford it, SHEESH) Little guys like this ain't a threat. Acidic Slime keeps him at bay. Also, if I get turn 2 lando, then they don't get goyf out until I have already got Deus of Calamity , at the least, out. or they don't get him out at all. (HAHA, have that happen most of the time which causes a rage quit. Quote, "#& that deck, I can't even get my &%en goyf out. That deck royally *&%s me over..." and so on.)But you do have a valid point. Aggro so far has the greatest chance of beating my lando. If I don't draw what I need and they do curve out unexpectedly, yah, I am in a pickle. But the deck is somehow very resilient and can get the crap beat out of it without dying. (probably because of Sun Droplet which is a beautiful card.) Against aggro and other decks like it, they tend to run out of steam because they throw so many cards out so quickly. I am banking on getting a Sun Droplet and at least turn 3 lando. I usually mulligan for at least Sun Droplet .Against aggro in particular, it might as well be a coin toss. (50% chance.)If you have any ideas on how I could better counter these low cost decks please unleash them. If you have looked at my sideboard, you'll have seen that it sucks. It currently has little resilient critters to absorb burn cards and small low cost critters so I can get my lando artillery out to finish the game.

Back to what KingSorin was saying:I get poked at by Thoughtsieze a crap ton. Usually by the guys who have goyf. (Whenever I see Thoughtsieze I make the assumption that goyf is in their deck somewhere.) Thoughtsieze is an annoying card. It and other 1 cost goodies like it are very disruptive. I can't do anything about those as far as I can see. That card, since it costs 1, can be used against anyone without interference turn 1. It is simply something I have to just take and walk off the pain. (Unless you have an idea?) But I don't think that was your point in your argument. I am starting to agree with your logic on mana draw calculations.

I will be looking into mana draw calculations and be referring to the sources you gave me as well as the calculations you already made.

As a side note, I just recently joined this site and I wasn't expecting this thorough of feedback. You guys are awesome. Thanks A whole lot for the info.

If you think that I am repudiating what your saying, please don't stop the flow of info. I am a sponge absorbing all of your information.

Thanks a lot and I'll let you know what I decide on doing soon. (Hmmm thinkin)

If anyone else wants to comment, PLEASE, by all means chime in and douse this page with your precious ideas! My goal is to make the most wicked land destruction deck that is good against everyone.

Also, if you want my opinions on your decks, then by all means toss me a link and I'll chuck my 2 cents at you.

I also forgot to mention my thoughts on Blood Moon . I immediately think it would be a very good card, yet if I implement all the non-basic lands into my deck won't it screw me two? I am going to play-test it with the deck simulator along with all the fetchlands and stuff.

First though, I want to do some intense work on my economics. My mana draw must be as efficient as possible and I am grateful for all of your feedback on my mana and such.

Yah, I think your right. The fetchlands may really help my necessity for green in opening hand. I have read through your essay carefully, KingSorin, about 3 times and each time I got some more out of it. It was dense and helpful. I have said it multiple times but, thanks for the numbers and stats.I'll do more testing tomorrow, or on Monday most definitely.

Okay, a few more things. The best counter to Thoughtseize is lands. They can't pluck lands out of your hand, but if you keep a 1-lander with a birds, they can essentially "kill" your birds. I'm not saying to put in a counter to TS, it's something pretty much every deck has to just cope with (except for a deck with 4 Basking Rootwalla , 4 Loxodon Smiter , 4 Wilt-Leaf Liege and 4 Obstinate Baloth plus land lulz), but my point is that on turn 1 and 2 plenty of things can happen, but if you can have reliable mana without relying on a dodgy amount of forests into a 65% chance of getting a dork, it will make your deck more resilient to disruption. With the exception of Acidic Slime and Primal Command , everything in your deck can be cast with just mountains and singleton basics. You can just play 2 Forest and 1 Island if you were going to add in Blood Moon , and plan ahead with fetchlands, and also i'd cut Consuming Aberration as the two colour splash it too difficult to pull off when your mana is already being crippled. As for the sideboard, the decks that you really have to worry about are decks that go off very early as has been mentioned. Shatterstorm , (affinity) Anger of the Gods , (pod and zoo) Pyroclasm , (tokens/goblins/weenie) Volcanic Fallout (faeries) and Back to Nature (auras and stax) should cover most of the very bad matchups. Goblin Ruinblaster seems lackluster. It's a 2/1 haste that blows up a land for 4. The body is pitifully small, (at least riders has 2 toughness) and there are many cards that I think would just help you more. If this is in for tron, then i think Blood Moon is much more helpful. There's no reason to put numot in your deck. 2 lands being blown up is cool, but so is actually being able to cast your win-cons. This mana cost is stupidly difficult to get off, and being 85% serious i'd prefer Storm Crow in the deck, as it slows down Bitterblossom and trades with Vendilion Clique . The next issue is Mana Leak , It's good, and it's essentially a hard counter, but in this deck Remand virtually does the same thing but cantrips. If you Remand their spell, the chances are next turn you'll deny them the mana to cast it whether through Blood Moon or red rain. I'm still not sold on mimic, as I think it's a win-more. Phantasmal Image costs 4 less, and can help in the early game by nullifying a Tarmogoyf or trading with whatever they play. I'd also put the Sun Droplet s in the side, or if aggro is really huge, main them. I just think that if control is going to win the game. You're screwed. It can't save you. If twin or pod is going to win the game, same thing, you're screwed, they've won. It only really helps you against aggro and faeries. Blood Moon helps you against multi-coloured. That's a big archetype right now, and if they're resilient to it, then you just side 'em out. Lightning Bolt s are good. Hound of Griselbrand seems awkward. What are you siding them in against? Spell Pierce is also a good card against non-creature decks post-board, as your opponent leaving up 2 mana against this deck is very difficult.

wow, these fetchlands are spendy... just throwing that out there as I test them. This is no longer a budget deck, lol

That's why i said (if you can afford them) in my first post, but yeah, they're going down though, and there's also been plenty of rumours of a reprint going around.

The Hound of Griselbrand along with Young Wolf were just meat shields when I faced an aggro deck. They are undying and give me a couple turns. That was their whole purpose. They are completely temporary until I can come up with a better sideboard.

Instead of the burns like what you talked about KingSorin, I think I could just toss in a couple nukes; Wrath of God or something like that. It is an assured kill for all creatures rather than just the small poopers like with Pyroclasm . I might as well and spend the extra 2 mana a turn later and wipe the field of decent sized critters like goyf if they get out.

I am heavily considering all of your ideas. I currently am testing fetchlands and am loving them a lot. Fetchlands give me these perks:

I search for the colors I need: gee I need that........

They reduce land draw because it searches for a land. So I don't get mana flooded end game, I get the six mana of all colors I need and then I have all the lando draw I want.

Down fall:They are freakishly expensive, (money.)They damage me in game: however it doesn't matter.

I was running the simulations and it is definitely worth sacrificing the life to get the colors I need to maintain turn 2 lando and lando thereafter.

I will continue testing tomorrow.

There's not point adding an extra colour for wrath. It costs double-white and 1 more mana and the only relevant things it hits are Tarmogoyf and Phyrexian Obliterator , and maybe a couple of others. Anger of the Gods wrecks zoo and pod for 1 less mana, and Volcanic Fallout is the 1 card that can wreck faeries, but it also helps against weenie decks. Your sideboard shouldn't press your colours. Try to stick to as few as possible and you'll take the least damage and save the most money. Young Wolf is too small to do anything against zoo and affinity, and Hound of Griselbrand is too little too late. You need something very early which wrecks their board, preferably early. The rest you can take care of with land-killers.

OK:I did completely redesigned the land setup. When I test ran it, I seemed to get flooded with mana when it had 19 lands, so I actually dropped it to 16 and it still gives plenty: 16 plus the 8 ramps which is 24. My odds of drawing 3 mana in starting hand are 70%? please correct me if I'm wrong on my calculations...

Utilizing fetchlands comboed with the shocklands multicoloredness, I 'never,' not once, had color issues the 20 or so times I playtested. Because of the ease of colors, I tossed Nettlevine Blight in there which is continual lando and anti-creature on crack.

What do you think of what I did?...

Crack the Earth can give you a t1 land destruction, but at a cost.

(@!(*!(@# A GREAT COST, I HAVE BEEN LOOKIN FOR SOMETHIN LIKE THIS FOR A LONG TIME, THANK YOU SO MUCH guerillarage!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Crack the Earth

Sweet, 1 cost lando. HAHAHA. Wow, I'm jolly now. I'll be implementing that at some point.

Are there any others like that. If so, PLEASE tell me. The lower cost lando I can get the better. Even if it costs me something.

Well there's Raze , but it's not modern-legal. You could consider Akki Blizzard-Herder .

Hmm, but Akki Blizzard-Herder has to die from something which would take a couple turns. I need immediate results as to crippling my foe at turn 1 or two. turn 3 is too late. By then they can set up their low cost combos and then I'm in trouble.

Must be modern legal.

Though.... if I don't get my mana ramp for turn 2 lando, but I get at least two lands, Crack the Earth and Akki Blizzard-Herder , I could take out two of their lands turn 2 while I lose one. I play Crack the Earth while having Akki Blizzard-Herder down; sac akki they sac a permanent, akki enters graveyard and we both lose a land. They lose a net 2 lands....

2 lands for me losing one?Hmmm, an idea...but requires that combo...hmmm (scratch chin)

Boom/Bust is pretty good (mainly the Boom side). It's even better with fetches

The problem with boom/bust is it doesn't work well with Utopia Sprawl . Nettlevine Blight is like Progenitor Mimic , it's a win-more. Most modern decks only run 22-ish lands, so blowing up 3 will generally seal the game. Also: the more colours you add, the more damage you will be taking from fetch lands, as if you need very on-colour plays such as turn 1 Birds of Paradise into turn 2 Molten Rain , that's at least 4 damage that you're taking to reliably get that play. Adding in a double-black requirement means you will need to devote slots to Overgrown Tomb s, Watery Grave s and Blood Crypt s, which will take away from the consistency of the deck. Why not just run Tamiyo, the Moon Sage if you want something to seal the game. It only costs 5, and can be used to stop already-present threats and also to lock down a land. It also can be used to re-fill your hand in a bad spot, and its emblem will mean with 1 land-killer you've essentially won.

Yah the damage is quite extensive when I play test it. I am still messing with ratios to minimize the damage. But, if I can get the draws that I want consistently enough, then I don't care about taking a bunch of damage. I am mana ramping at the same time so I can get big stuff like Deus of Calamity to protect me from little critters.

It depends on how consistant I can get turn 2 lando and ld thereafter. If I deem the life loss or sacrificing end game too much is not worth it, then I'll back track; ridding of Nettlevine Blight and other large things that stretch my colorful economy.

Currently I am not using Watery Grave and Blood Crypt because your right, it decreases deck constancy. It comes back to my necessity for green, so I'm currently sticking with Breeding Pool , Stomping Ground , and Overgrown Tomb ; as they all have green for when I get them in my starting hand.

I am liking Tamiyo, the Moon Sage ...just putting that out there...

What I think will end up happening is that I will pick a third color, which is aside from red and green, and focus. That third color is bouncing between blue and black. (I have also considered Helldozer but you know, serious black demand.