Alright, sorry to spam my page with comments, but seibertross (and anyone else as well), I want you to sell me on using Accorder Paladin . Alot of you seem really keen on him. Indeed, he's a battle-crazy knight, but he seems to die to almost everything (albeit most of the time, he earns a kill). His 1 toughness is what holds me back, it just seems to make him too vulnerable.

From Contagion Clasp to Necropede , from even Plague Stinger to Marrow Shards and Virulent Wound (notice how these are all SoM block cards), he just dies to a large number of things, which seems unnaceptable to me, I guess. It would be nice if he at least attracted kill spells, but his one toughness makes opponents know he won't be hard to get rid of. When I had 4x Hyena Umbra in the deck (of course coupled with 4x exemplar and Honor of the Pure ), he was a lot more viable. But I don't want to have him in with the impression that he will be OK. Because he will be buffed by one of the two aforementioned sources. In a perfect world that would be the case, but this isn't a perfect world :(.

I know it may seem silly, but just 1 toughness more can make all the difference. It may not save the day with cards like Pyroclasm or Whipflare , but previously having just that much more toughness brings you that much closer to surviving something like those and enduring on the battlefield.

Alright, sorry to spam my page with comments, but seibertross (and anyone else as well), I want you to sell me on using Accorder Paladin . Alot of you seem really keen on him. Indeed, he's a battle-crazy knight, but he seems to die to almost everything (albeit most of the time, he earns a kill). His 1 toughness is what holds me back, it just seems to make him too vulnerable.

From Contagion Clasp to Necropede , from even Plague Stinger to Marrow Shards and Virulent Wound (notice how these are all SoM block cards), he just dies to a large number of things, which seems unnaceptable to me, I guess. It would be nice if he at least attracted kill spells, but his one toughness makes opponents know he won't be hard to get rid of. When I had 4x Hyena Umbra in the deck (of course coupled with 4x exemplar and Honor of the Pure ), he was a lot more viable. But I don't want to have him in with the impression that he will be ok simply because is a chance he will be buffed by one of the two aforementioned sources. In a perfect world that would be the case, but I can't rely on it. And this certainly isn't a perfect world :(.

I know it may seem silly, but just 1 toughness more can make all the difference. It may not save the day with cards like Pyroclasm or Whipflare , but previously having just that much more toughness brings you that much closer to surviving something like those and enduring on the battlefield.

First off its a toss up really. If someone you play all the time plays Virulent Wound or has Porcelain Legionnaire (the latter of which is another thought for the slot even though it leaves the tribe) that will gain a particular advantage from him I'd drop it in a second.

The argument I'd make for him in a deck (which is coming more from a "defend this point" high school debate team perspective) is this:

A)This is an aggro tap out tribal deck. In which he fits perfectly, and can be devastatingly good. I think you might be surprised how he and a Hero of Bladehold can WHIP an opponent...FAST.

B) Accorder Paladin almost must be killed. Drawing early hate is the best thing in the world for this deck. I can Doom Blade your Student of Warfare , Go for the Throat the Paladin, and have no answer for your Knight Exemplar or Hero of Bladehold . It happens, ALOT...especially since to have that much early turn kills, means your decks probably not particularly creature heavy...and 25+ creature decks have a strong tendency to just never let up. You may feel bad if the first one dies, but you may often draw into 2 more and happily drop both on 5th turn snickering how they have no more answers left.

C) Drawing to him just adds to cheap Knights, his ability makes dropping 2 at once devastating as all hell.

D) Don't assume until you face something. Marrow Shards does screw up 1 toughness guys, but who's gonna play it because it doesnt screw up much else. Dead weight is a very unsexy option for most players...thus why Virulent Wound hasn't gone, well, viral.

E) At worst, he trades with a TON of creatures. How would you feel about a 2 cost spell that said "Kill Vampire Nighthawk , Other attacking creatures get +1/+0 till end of turn"?

Hmm, I definitely see your point. I like your phrasing in E), as well:) but it returns us to my earlier point; the use of the paladin in a forseeable cost-benefit ratio. He definitely will kill Vampire Nighthawk , as well as young blockers like Plague Stinger or Vector Asp , both common and cheap infect creatures in standard. He is also vulnerable to Tangle Angler or Contagion Clasp , or any of those -1/-1 counters that seem to be dropped all the time. When he does manage to get through, the 3 damage is nice, and his battle-cry is an asset when your swinging with a few creatures at once.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that his 1 toughness leaves him open to far too many -1 toughness cards in standard, where they don't need a killing spell to deal with him; a simple chump blocker or, better yet, card with an activated ability will deal with him. I know there are more important knights that thus avoid what plagues the paladin, but his death seems to be in vain when he gets taken down without a chance to attack.

This brings me to my next point - I really like the idea of Porcelain Legionnaire in here.. Especially since he is basically an artifact Accorder Paladin with first strike instead of battle-cry. And since the knights are usually dropping like flies in front of the onslaught of Doom Blade s, Go for the Throat s, Disfigure s, Grasp of Darkness es and Phyrexian Vatmother s as Corpse Cur s revive them, first strike seems more of an asset, since I usually am not able to marshal large numbers of creatures on the battlefield at a time. Especially with the Basilisk Collar s in here, first strike is all the more potent. Porcelain Legionnaire also invites the possible inclusion of Puresteel Paladin with equipment, but we will get to that later.

Nonetheless, this invites me to ask you, which do you think is more potent between White Knight , Porcelain Legionnaire and Accorder Paladin for their synergy and value to the rest of the deck? And more importantly, what could I sub out for it? The equipment cards have served to be invaluable so far in my matches, so I would not be keen to remove them. The only other options, without interfering with the creatures, is to sub out some Honor of the Pure (only possible with Accorder Paladin , really, and is arguably more valuable than him in the deck]], the prot cards (which are definitely more valuable), the DoJ (needed for board wipes and clearing things like Phyrexian Crusader or Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon if they hit), and maybe 2 lands (which would make the Hero of Bladehold and DoJ harder to play.

Also, given that Porcelain Legionnaire is an artifact, would he be able to block creatures with intimidate or protection from white, like Phyrexian Crusader ? Other than DoJ, this deck has no way to deal with him, and the Porcelain Legionnaire option would seem all the more valuable.

Well Mirran Crusader would be my flavor rich answer for Phyrexian Crusader ...morever I think you could trade swings with an infect deck for a few turns you should win as fast as they will. Rarely will you see Skithiryx on 5th turn in a first game, after that first game you got your Corrosive Gale and Tumble Magnet .

Porcelain Legionnaire can block intimidate, but not prot white.

Infect is still just absurd btw...its hard to even begin to phathom how many ways infectors can kill you in a swing. I'm still stunned it hasn't taken over extended where things like Might of Oaks still exist. I think the best answer is to make your deck as scary as possible for 90% of matchups, and hope not to run into the 10% so much. If it dominates your meta then ya totally gear up for it. But sometimes just run the deck and THEN Tinker after =p

@metaphysical:

I understand you want to keep working on your deck and make it better and better and better, the problem for me is though: It looks pretty perfect.

Now that is on paper and i've never played it against another deck and i don't know your meta so i can't know that, but i can't think of a card really that i'd want to drop except maybe the squadron hawks, but you say you need stuff against flyers in your meta, so i'll trust you on that.

(although i still think with 4 Mainboard Leonin Skyhunter s and 2-3 Corrosive Gale and Tumble Magnet in the side you should be fine regardless)

The only thing i can really say to you is that after every match you should look at which cards really pulled their weight and more importantly,which didn't. It isn't a fast process or anything, but after 50 matches you can say with some amount of certainty which cards you defo want and which you don't per se. I know, i know, effort. But if you write it down just make a list: good vs bad and write down the cards that go in each category. (you could also put the matchup next to each card, would help in sideboard construction).

So aside from that, which i think is the best way to go about perfecting this deck, there's the question of whether Accorder Paladin , White Knight or Porcelain Legionnaire is best for your deck. None of these guys help against Phyrexian Crusader for one, so that doesn't matter. The legionnaire (like seibertross said) can block creatures with intimidate though.

I would say that i prefer the legionnaire over the accorder paladin and the white knight, but not in this deck, as they get nothing from Knight Exemplar and the likes. They also die almost as fast as the accorder paladin to almost all things you mentioned. (Contagion Clasp , Necropede (in a different way), Virulent Wound etc.) So then it's a choice between White Knight and Accorder Paladin . And there i think you really need to make a decision between strategies. Aggro-paladin versus aggro/mid-range-knight. And then also take into account what seibertross said about the paladin.

Choose your destiny! (or don't and first decide whether you really want to change something in your deck)

This should help a bit though :)

If the Phyrexian Crusader really is a big issue in your meta btw, you should consider Dismember , it's the only real alternative (next to tumble magnet) i can think of.

@seibertross:

You probably know this but i'm saying it anyways: Mirran Crusader can't block Phyrexian Crusader ? And nice breakdown of the paladin btw.

No, but an opponents phyrexian crusader can't kill you any faster than mirran crusader will kill the opponent...

Oh & thank you for the high school debate team karma points =D

@jessetaverne,

I agree, and point well taken. I will be moving on to other decks now, as I concur that there really isn't anything else that can be done here. My goal was versatility, and I feel that, with everyone's help, I have achieved it. And thank you for the reality check too, it's easy to get wrapped up in trying to perfect something, especially if you have a perfectionist personality. Also, Dismember has earned a spot in the SB.

@seibertross,

Thank you very much for your constructed points on Accorder Paladin , I look at him in a completely different way now and respect his capabilities :). And thanks for the reality check as well; I often forget that 4 damage is equivalent to 2 poison counters. The infect race to 10 poison counters has often made me lose sight of the potential of my own creatures to reduce their life to 0. The Corrosive Gale has also earned a permanent spot in the SB.

@all:

Thanks each and every one of you for your support! I hope that this deck will serve as a referential foundation for knights in standard. Its strength and and versatility have been honed through lots of constructive opinions and experience, and was made possible by all of you.

Final adjustments have been made, and I hope you like what i've decided on. I don't think this deck will need much of any adjustment until the 2012 core set releases, and the knights that will be lost (including Student of Warfare and gained (hopefully including a legendary creature knight) can be taken into account. Given that this is a tribal deck, if there are no further cards that benefit knights, the deck will likely shift into extended. There is still potential with Puresteel Paladin , but that story with better equipment in standard is for another time.

The only possible adjustment I could see someone recommending is to fit 3x Accorder Paladin into the SB for further pushing an aggro rush against an opponent, or a Spellskite for safety, but we'll have to see on that one. Thanks again everyone! :)

Oh, and seibertross, +1 for the debate team karma points as well :D

I'm gonna be honest man, there is no way in hell I am gonna sit here and read through these thousands of comments to see what people have previously suggested. xD Hence, if I say something that has already been covered, can you please excuse me. _

Firstly, no matter what you do, do not remove the Leonin Skyhunter s. Ever. One of the best knights ever to be created, because flying is just that important. Secondly, adding a Sword of War and Peace may seem tempting, but it's too slow for the bonuses really, and you don't want to give a creature protection from your Emerge Unscathed s, just in case. :P The Sword of Feast and Famine that is already in there is a better fit, as black is heavier on spotremoval, and the untap ability is extremely aggressive.

It seems like a strong tribal, with a competitive level of pressure. Sideboarding the Magnet helps against infect and aggro, but more importantly, against Caw-blade.

I know you asked for my opinion, and I was hoping to help some, but this deck looks truly solid. The only possible addition I could recommend would be Infiltration Lens , as it wouldn't devastate your curve, and the opponent would hesitate to block early attackers, meaning a t4 Brave the Elements could potentially mean game over, as early life loss would leave them weak. And if they do decide to block off, you get huge card advantage, allowing for a rapid overrun and the possibility of spamming 2 Knight Exemplar s.

Other than that, kudos on a strong, intimidating deck. :) +1

I'm gonna be honest man, there is no way in hell I am gonna sit here and read through these thousands of comments to see what people have previously suggested. xD Hence, if I say something that has already been covered, can you please excuse me. _

Firstly, no matter what you do, do not remove the Leonin Skyhunter s. Ever. One of the best knights ever to be created, because flying is just that important. Secondly, adding a Sword of War and Peace may seem tempting, but it's too slow for the bonuses really, and you don't want to give a creature protection from your Emerge Unscathed s, just in case. :P The Sword of Feast and Famine that is already in there is a better fit, as black is heavier on spotremoval, and the untap ability is extremely aggressive.

It seems like a strong tribal, with a competitive level of pressure. Sideboarding the Magnet helps against infect and aggro, but more importantly, against Caw-blade.

I know you asked for my opinion, and I was hoping to help some, but this deck looks truly solid. The only possible addition I could recommend would be Infiltration Lens , as it wouldn't devastate your curve, and the opponent would hesitate to block early attackers, meaning a t4 Brave the Elements could potentially mean game over, as early life loss would leave them weak. And if they do decide to block off, you get huge card advantage, allowing for a rapid overrun and the possibility of spamming 2 Knight Exemplar s.

Other than that, kudos on a strong, intimidating deck. :) +1

Hey man, thanks for the comment and rating :). I really like your suggestion on the Infiltration Lens , actually. I guess it could be interchangeable with Basilisk Collar (which Epochalyptik was advocating earlier) because they both force your opponent to make a split decision. one gives card advantage, and the other guarantees you a kill (first strike and deathtouch, with lifelink as a bonus is just absurd). If not taking out the collar, maybe -1 land and -1 Accorder Paladin for +2 Infiltration Lens ? how does that sound?

Hey man. I like the deck idea, +1 for sure. I have a knight deck as well, and I've been trying to brainstorm on how to switch over from enchantments to artifacts and equipment so that I can take advantage of Puresteel Paladin when I get a few. It's been hard for me to come up with something, especially since my most consistent win-con is a Mirran Crusader with an Armored Ascension. But I think you're going the right way with utilitarian equipments instead of pump up equipments, if that makes any sense? My thinking is, you're already doing a lot of damage with your creatures and they're offensive abilities, so use your equipments and such for control, card advantage, creature control, like you're doing already. I think you're definitely heading down the right path. I'm going to be checking in to see how it's coming, maybe get a clue as to how I'm going to switch my knight deck over to artifacts. Keep up the brewing bro!

Hey thanks for the thoughts beatmick! Really appreciated :) I think the word you were looking for was 'utility' equipment rather than 'utilitarian' equipment, because utilitarianism is, as i'm sure you already know, a political ideology that evaluates all scenarios in a cost-benefit manner. But I like your enthusiasm! :D

No, I meant: "pertaining to or consisting in utility," not, "of, pertaining to, or adhering to the doctrine of utilitarianism." But in the latter sense, your deck is also utilitarian, at least little. But, much like you have pointed out, utilitarianism is a whole another story altogether, and should be left for the political forums maybe. ;-)

I wish I could give you another +1 though, for your well thought inclusion AND understanding of philosophies and strategies written by masters at the art of war. Well done, plus... I love me some philosophies of war!

you know, our knight decks look pretty similar. Storm the Castle.

i went for more creature enchants while you went for artifacts and the global honor enchant. then again, i've never pulled any of the new swords or they might be in mine too hah.

Yeah man! They are pretty similar. I initially had lots of enchants too, primarily Armored Ascension , but I gradually learned that enchanting a creature with an aura often results in a 2-1 win for your opponent, because that creature is always controlled/killed by a spell. I basically tried to switch tactics by using a bunch of equally strong creatures rather than one powerful one, so if one is lost then it won't matter as much. And yeah, the swords work wonders. I have tried all of them in here, but Sword of Feast and Famine works the best. Oh, and I gave your deck a +1.

If you are interested in enchants, I would probably try 2-4x card:Marshal's Anthem, it works really well, but you will want to put your land count to 24. And you should also maximize 4x of your Honor of the Pure . Armored Ascension is awesome, but you can only play it on certain cards, like Mirran Crusader (ideally) and White Knight because they have black prot. The swords are also awesome with ascension for the varied prot that they give, but it's all very expensive to have it all in your deck.

i'm actually considering putting a couple Ajani Goldmane in for the counters/vigilance ability alone. figured i'd mention it to you as well, seems like it could work well.

Ajani is an awesome card, I had him in my deck for a long time. The only reason I took him out was because when push came to shove and it was time to use his -1 ability, I would only have 1 to 3 creatures out, because the threat level the knights give is huge, and all of them attract kill spells. So if you have 24-26+ knights in your deck, then he is definitely a good pick, otherwise I found him to often be dead weight. The vigilance was nice, and so was the +1/+1 counters, but it rarely served to be something game-changing. Not to mention he only has a few uses until he expires.

I found it more useful to include an extra 2-3 Sun Titan , Linvala, Keeper of Silence , Tumble Magnet , Infiltration Lens , Day of Judgment , or just more knights like Accorder Paladin or White Knight for versatility. Linvala is AMAZING because she is cheap, a 3/4 flyer, and she nullifies countless creature cards with activated abilities that undermine knights, like Gatekeeper of Malakir , Spikeshot Elder , Tangle Angler , Argent Sphinx , other Student of Warfare , etc. Plus, since she has a bullseye on her forhead, she will usually always take a hit for one of your knights.

Maybe you could add in 1 or 2 card:Nomads' Assembly. It is better than card:Conqueror's Pledge, and it has rebound, so if you have out 4 creatures, you get 4 on the first turn, then 8 more on the second. that's 12 total creatures.

Just a thought.

I actually made a U/W knight deck with Ajani Goldmane and Thrummingbird s: Ajani's Knights of Proliferation. Ajani really shines in this deck, especially if you're proliferating while using Ajani's -1 ability. You get two +1/+1 counters each turn if you have a Thrummingbird out, and Ajani gets his loyalty counter back. This also makes your Knight Exemplar tougher to kill if you don't have another Exemplar out. It's true that I could have White Knight or Accorder Paladin in Thrummingbird's place, but I haven't had any major issues yet. And it's another flier that gets huge (ever seen a 5/5 Thrummingbird with vigilance?). It's been fast and fun the couple of times I've tested it. Thought I would share since I saw you guys talking about Ajani.

Thanks for the comments guys!

@platinum_demon,

I like the card:Nomads' Assembly idea, i used card:Conqueror's Pledge in here a while ago and it was great for ensuring a quick beatdown victory, although card:Nomads' Assembly would be even better. I even own 4x card:Nomads' Assembly because they went on sale for $1 each at my local mtg shop a while ago. My only concern with them is 1) the hefty 6cmc mana cost (having Sun Titan I already pushing it) and 2) the vulnerabilities that all of the 1/1 soldiers will have in today's meta, with cards like Ichor Explosion , card:Life's Finale, card:Black Sun's Zenith, Whipflare /Pyroclasm , etc. Still, If I was to put some in, what would you suggest I take out?

@beatmick,

Dude, that deck idea sounds awesome, i am definitely gonna have a look at the one you made. Also, are you pro-Ajani Goldmane for any knights deck, or just the one you made? If I was to include him in here with something like Contagion Clasp or Contagion Engine to back him up, what would you swap out for it? The only blue I've really considered splashing in here was either Phyrexian Metamorph , or Venser, the Sojourner with something like card:Marshal's Anthem or Contagion Engine . Although, obviously, any of these changes other than the metamorph would drastically change the play style of the deck.

It's true that it will change the play style of the deck, greatly. I actually own one Ajani, and he is in my standard knight deck. I've played Ajani's Knights a few times, with the current build, and it has been fun. I did have Engines and Clasps in there, but took 'em out because they sometimes took too long to get firing. The Thrummingbird s really sped up the proliferation, but now I have non-knights in my knight deck.

I am for Ajani in any knight deck. +1/+1 counters and vigilance make knights very deadly, especially indestructible knights with vigilance that can block anything that isn't unblockable. Even if that's all you use Ajani for, it's still pretty usefull. Four turns of vigilance and a +1/+1 counter on each creature for each of those turns is worth 2WW to me. But I would suggest building a separate deck to try out the proliferation mechanic along with Ajani. I also know that you don't need proliferation with Ajani, but it makes him all that much more potent. I also like Ajani in a knight deck more than I like Gideon or Elspeth, he really fits well with tribal knights and the aggro white archetype.

I love +1/+1 counters o much right now that if it was legal, Meadowboon would be in my Knight decks.

I would be careful about the changes you make. The mana curve has gone back up since I last saw this deck.

Emeria, The Sky Ruin is a nice card, but it's a CIPT land, and it's usefulness is hindered by the running of Tectonic Edge and Mystifying Maze . I advocate dropping the Emerias for regular plains, which will let you be faster in the early game.

I strongly suggest returning to a playset of Brave the Elements . They are so powerful and versatile in a build like this that there is no real reason I can see that would warrant running less than that. You could drop a Sun Titan and a Day of Judgment for the 2 slots you need, and at the same time lower your mana curve. (Also, the Titan is less useful if you can protect your field better anyway).

You are also weak in the removal department. Oust , Condemn , and Smite like I have said before, but now Dismember and other Phyrexian mana cards are at your disposal.