cooknathan says... #3
@sugimura; Thanks, Psychic Spiral and Judge's Familiar arnt really win conditions. The decks win conditions are, primarily Battle of Wits (obviously), but also backup win conditions in the keyrunes, Chalice of Life Flip and planeswalkers depending on chance and the opponent. These are relatively rarely used as win conditions and hence their primary and more important goal is keeping me alive. So to quickly justify the alternatives; the keyrunes get through not just due to the flying and unblockable but because im almost constantly wiping the board of all creatures and hence blockers (or im dead usually lol), chalice is supplemented with other life gain in the deck and hence isnt that slow, planeswalkers can be quite efficient. These alternatives probably get me 1/4 of my wins (perhaps less) further justifying them in their main purpose as mana ramp, control and card advantage but sometimes win conditions.
Lately Im more thinking that Bolas will actually stay in as I am underwhelmed with other potential backup win condtitions that would be good control elements and not get in the way, both tutor cards in the deck can find more than 1 card so its not that much trouble to find bolas + mountain besides its just as often found with Transguild Promenade /Evolving Wilds anyway.
If I was desperate for another win condition it would probably be Stormtide Leviathan as I probably wouldnt have to worry about board wipes any more (so it doesnt get in the way) and I can turn the game around with a single card in a pinch. But I dont feel like I need it atm.
@infinitemana; Thanks but Blood Baron of Vizkopa would be a bit of a dead draw if I had wits or tutor, then it is almost certain that it would get nuked constantly by midgame board wipe. If I didnt have wits and needed an alternate win condition there is probably other options that would still double as a useful element Stormtide Leviathan for example (as explained above).
June 2, 2013 5:30 p.m.
DaGabester says... #4
you should add Elixir of Immortality so you can shuffle your grave into ur library in case you mill urself below 200 cards
June 9, 2013 11:27 p.m.
cooknathan says... #5
That has happened like twice and one of those time was to a mill deck. Its a dead draw otherwise. After much deliberation I took it out. It can exist in the sideboard just in case ;-)
June 10, 2013 12:57 a.m.
gbjfrtswym says... #6
Did the rule of being able to shuffle your deck without assistance get removed? This card seems ridiculous. Neat idea if it works...
July 15, 2013 10:15 p.m.
cooknathan says... #7
I think the rule still exist (although I couldnt find it in the comprehensive rules or tournament rules... huh) and it gets bought up every now and then by opponents. I usually split the deck into 2 piles of 120, shuffle then join the piles, which isn't much more difficult than shuffling two EDH decks. I'm pretty quick and thorough so I haven't had any complaints yet.
Thanks, ridiculous is what I was going for lol. It works well except against many aggro decks (which it keeps coming up against gah). Although not the most competitive thing, its a challenge and a lot of fun!
July 15, 2013 11:04 p.m.
gbjfrtswym says... #8
I checked all over the magic site rules and couldn't find any rule stating that there was a limit. Just things of the nature of "Constructed decks must contain a minimum of sixty cards. There is no maximum deck size. If a player chooses to use a sideboard, it may not contain more than fifteen cards." for Constructed Tournaments.
And more general rules state: "100.5. There is no maximum deck size." Wizzards Magic Rules.
No if, and, or, buts to it... Just no maximum deck size... I always tease my friend about her 100+ card deck that she has trouble shuffling sometimes quoting what I thought was the rule, but she will be pleased to know that I can't actually find the ruling anywhere valid.
July 15, 2013 11:44 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #9
This is lovely.
A friend ran a Battle of Wits deck with at least 3 other win cons, including Laboratory Maniac (used Enter the Infinite for that, it was horrible) and Maze's End . There were a lot less boardwipes, but he still won 90% of his games, including against a Legacy Dredge deck, somehow.
Anyways, +1.
July 16, 2013 12:03 a.m.
cooknathan says... #10
Hahaha Enter the Infinite + Laboratory Maniac is about the funniest thing ever in this deck! I might just have to put that in there or at least sideboard. Or even Enter the Infinite into Psychic Spiral lol
Ahhh. Thanks, you made my day.
July 16, 2013 9:55 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #11
Keep in mind with Psychic Spiral that it's targeted and someone my kill you before you have a chance to set it off.
July 16, 2013 11:08 p.m.
cooknathan says... #12
Im aware. Im also thinking Traumatize . Will do some testing tonight.
July 17, 2013 12:13 a.m.
oh my gosh you must be crazybut i like it alot!!! how often does this deck actual win with the Battle of Wits? :D
July 24, 2013 8:28 a.m.
cooknathan says... #14
Thanks lol. probably about 75% of the games that it wins is with Battle of Wits but I haven't had a chance to test the new combo at a FNM so we will have to wait and see.
July 24, 2013 8:33 a.m.
metalevolence says... #15
I think basically anything would be better in the 4 slots currently occupied by Jace, memory adepts.
August 7, 2013 12:34 a.m.
May i suggest Ring of Three Wishes from M14? It is another Tutor!
August 7, 2013 12:45 a.m.
cooknathan says... #17
@metalevolence, really? Jace has been pretty solid. His constant draw power is great for finding the perpetual board wipes and counters and he is usually a huge target when he comes out buying me some time. I would like to get some Tamyo and Sorin but I didn't think they would be replacing Jace. Any suggestions?
@RUGslug, thanks. I was a little torn over Ring of Three Wishes as it can be very slow unless you have 10 mana open. I've got a few lying around though so I might give them a playtest anyway.
August 7, 2013 1:43 a.m.
The Ring really isn't too slow. It can take a turn to activate but if you don't have another tutor in hand and you don't have Battle of Wits then your hand probably have a decent amount of stall/removal anyway. Chances seem to be that way at least, though i've never played a deck this size haha +1
August 7, 2013 1:47 a.m.
Congrats on being mentioned by Mark Nestico on SCG recently! Glad to see you're still working the deck!
September 11, 2013 3:43 a.m.
weirdghishies says... #21
This is awesome. How often do you win with it?
wripsik says... #1
Thanks for stopping by my deck and giving feedback, it's much appreciated, and got my brain moving a little bit more. Always good to get a fresh perspective. And as a quick aside, my deck went 2-3 last night at FNM again. This is the third time it's gotten that result, but the good news is twofold: it's never done worse than 2-3 so far so it's definitely consistent; and, in two of the three losses last night, it went to the third game and could have gone either way. So yeah, it didn't pull out the wins, but it had the potential to just as easily be 4-1 again. Pretty happy with the effort, to say the least.
So now, okay, I'm glad I have a little bit of perspective on Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker in your deck. Knowing he's more of a spot-filler than anything makes me understand it more. However, I still think I'm having a little bit of trouble being able to spot the deck's other important win-cons. At a quick glance, here's what I see for ways to win, in total: Battle of Wits and Nicol Bolas (of course), then there's Divine Deflection , Psychic Spiral , Judge's Familiar , Chalice of Life Flip , and the three Keyrunes.
We obviously know the benefits of Psychic Spiral and how/when that will be handy, so I'll leave that one alone. Judge's Familiar seems to be in the deck to be another control card instead of an actual threat, because you're likely not expecting to use him like a 1/1 token, it's his ability you want, so he's not much of a win-con at all, especially considering to make him useful, you have to sacrifice him. Divine Deflection is a decent card; I like that you can redirect the damage wherever you want to as long as you have enough mana to do so, but the problem is that if it's acting as a win-con in your deck, then you're going to be directing the damage at the player everytime meaning you're leaving the damaging creature on the board to hit you again next turn, and if you decide to use the damage to kill the attacking creature, then it goes against 'alternate win condition' status, especially if you use it against something like a Boros Reckoner where you'll almost certainly have the damage dealt to him redirected back at your face, or Thragtusk where you'll deal with the 5/3 but still have to deal with a 3/3. Of course your deck has tons of answers for another beast on the field, but it still means that the Deflection wasn't used in such as way as to promote your deck winning. Chalice of Life, meanwhile, is great (even greater with Rhox Faithmender , but you're not into creatures in this deck like I am, so I'll leave that alone, too), but if your opponent sees you using it effectively, you'll probably see a Naturalize effect sideboarded against it (Acidic Slime got me pretty good tonight in my 0-2 loss, and the Slime is actually terribly good against Battle of Wits itself, so be wary of that and keep your counterspells close by!), and because it takes 10 turns of activations before you can start tapping it for damage (and then 4 more turns if the opponent is still at 20 by that time), it becomes a lot harder to view it as a reliable win condition. The Keyrunes, while not terrible, are certainly not reliable in battle either. The Dimir Keyrune has the highest likelihood of doing damage to the opponent, but it's too unwieldy to have to keep activating it every turn just to swing through for just 2 damage, plus since you have nearly no other creatures to speak of, the opponent will keep any removal spells handy for when you do try it. The Azorius Keyrune has flying, but that won't do much against something like Angel of Serenity or any other 3-toughness flyer or better, and while I also have Orzhov Keyrune in my deck, I mostly use him for his mana generation, and occasionally a surprise blocker against Boros Reckoner . (If the opponent lets the Keyrune hit the Reckoner by not giving it first strike, I gain the one life, and he can either negate that life gain by dealing the Keyrune's one damage back to me and letting the Keyrune live, a net advantage of zero, or he can deal the damage back to the Keyrune, killing it, and I've lived another turn and actually gained one life in the exchange. Or, instead he can give the Reckoner first-strike, in which case I don't gain any life, but I don't lose any life either, and the Keyrune lives, meaning it did its job. I feel like Rhox Faithmender is an even better blocker for him because the one damage can't be redirected to the Faithmender to kill it since it has 5 toughness, and if he redirects Faithmender's one damage back at me, I'll still be up one life because I'd have gained two off of Faithmender's double-lifelink ability anyway. The more I think about Faithmender, the more I love what it could potentially do for me, even if it is more susceptible to removal than the Keyrune is. But anyway, that was all pretty off-topic, and I apologize for making you sit through that...)
So outside of that, your only major win-con is a card that you're planning to take out of your deck eventually anyway, and that you've had to add in a fourth colour just to support. I feel like Esper has enough great cards (creatures or otherwise) to be able to handle taking over for what Nicol Bolas takes with him when he leaves, and helps even out your mana by not forcing you to consider how exactly to get that one Mountain (or Transguild Promenade I guess...) onto the field to make it happen. Now I'm not saying that having creatures is definitely the way to make more things happen in the deck, and I'm impressed that you've pulled out wins with this deck in its current state, but I have to ask: out of all your wins, how many of them were from something other than Battle of Wits , Psychic Spiral milling or Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker ?
For the record, I'm definitely not trying not be overly critical of what you're doing, I'm simply trying to gain a better understanding of how your deck performs. I understand being in a bind when the cards you want to put in the deck aren't readily available; as I said in the description for my deck, it took a lot of trading to get some of the bigger players in my deck, too (some of the Shocklands and planeswalkers and Snapcaster Mage and Sphinx's Revelation , for example). Once you have the pieces together and it starts falling into place, it's one of the greatest feelings.
If you've had the thought of taking out Bolas, and (as you inferred in my deck's comments) you're not comfortable being more creature-heavy to avoid board wiping your own side (which really isn't that bad given the heavy amount of control you're running), what else were you thinking would take his place? I'm curious to know what your thoughts are!
Cheers!
March 23, 2013 2:37 p.m.