iamyoona: Thanks again for the feedback bud! With most decks I would agree with you on Fabricate, but literally every important card in the deck is an artifact (engine, top, ramp, scepter, key). In my testing Transmute Artifact was pretty bad most of the time and Fabricate has been very good. Yes it is slightly more mana intensive but its also much easier to cast since its not double blue and it doesnt blow up the very ramp I am using to power engine. Occassionally transmute works out ok, but far more often its a dead draw or the sacrafice sets me back a turn. I have never felt that way about fabricate and it has facilitated several turn 3-4 wins.

I am a big fan of Tainted Pact even outside of Food Chain decks as a cheaper but slightly more limited Dig Through Time effect and will definitely try it in place of Training Grounds as it has been a grindier play than I want. Totally agree its out of place here.

Ponder is great and I will never cut it. YOU HEAR ME! NEVER!! :-). I have been very happy with Dark Petition and will likely keep it as well.

I haven't tested snapcaster much but I feel as though I will agree its not worth it. There is a xxG regrowth effect that I cant remember the name of that may well be better. Then again I feel 3 recursion effects may be enough.

Ballista is clunky and I am replacing it with Grapeshot, which is much better for this deck for many reasons. Going below 2 true outlets is not an option since I refuse to play return from exile cards and dont want to encourage Praetor's Grasp players to get cheeky with me.

Llanowar Elves usually helps cast Thrasios on my combo turn so its never useless, but I am definitely avoiding more copies of him.

iamyoona: Ha I found it! Wildest Dreams. I will test this against snapcaster for a bit to see if either is worthy of a spot. I also think Plunge into Darkness may be something I try.

ok get rid of pact put in force of will i played it and 1 strip mine fucks u so change it

... I'm not sure you understand the point of Pact of Negation. The right time to use it is when you're comboing to finish and you need to protect against disruption. I agree Force of Will is better at utility and I have both in my list but I would never cut Pact of Negation in an combo list, especially one that is this all in.

Let me know how Wildest Dreams tests; I'm not sure I value the card past a way to continue the engine which I don't brick but maybe it'll perform better than I expect!

Yeah pact is only to be used on a combo turn or to screw over another player if you know you cant win but want to inflict pain before you die.

Ill stop being a hipster I guess and bring back force of will. You guys just want my curve to be fat and ugly...

On the Fabricate vs Transmute Artifact thing: have you considered trying Whir of Invention? Being an instant gives it a bit of an edge IMO. The looks heavy but I think your mana base can handle it.

The issue isnt my mana base to be honest. Yes I could probably cast it to get engine, but I would be paying 8 mana to do so, whereas Fabricate is an easy turn 2 play that facilitates a turn 3 win. The instant speed is very nice, but it doesn't offset the following two problems:

1) With few exceptions it is dead in my hand once engine is in play because I am often relying entirely upon mana dorks and rocks to cover the color costs at that point. If I can afford UUU, I probably am going to win with or without it.

2) The discount whir provides does not help since almost all my artifacts tap for mana already. If it was truly like convoke in that it covered color costs ot would be in the deck without a doubt, but that would be far too broken.

I think fabricate is a very meh tutor in general, but for this particular combo it is really great. It does everything I want it to do.

I see. I was thinking more in terms of sneaking a Mana Crypt or the Scepter in at the end of an opponent's turn than tutoring for the Engine.

In that capacity it may be very good and I didnt really consider the scepter applications. Given Whirs capacity to tap cards like Winters Orb and Static Orb, it could be great in a grindier midrange version of the deck. I am contemplating adding it to Leo as I adapted this combo to my Leo deck and will be playing that from now on instead of DD and high tide. Also since engine doesnt care about lands at all I can bring back winter's orb to Leo as I loved using it before I got all stormy

In answer to your question regarding Praetor's Grasp - you already run Tainted Pact and while you don't run Labman there are a lot of other decks who do. The other thing is that a lot of fast combo decks don't run a huge amount of redundancy on every piece of their combo so while they might have multiple win conditions, removing a particular card makes it very difficult (or even impossible) to get to said win conditions. I think its inclusion is valid as a bit of proactive hate and could be quite valuable.

enpc: I totally agree. As always your perspective is helpful and much appreciated. I think I am going to replace Grape Shot with grasp, since it is way more useful. If my reservoir gets exiled and I can't exile all opponents libraries with reality shift+scepter+engine I can just steal someone elses win condition. Having another "tutor" which replaces itself is a nice power boost.

Put in Muddle the Mixture. It tutors for Isochron Scepter as well as every spell you could want to put on it.

Aside from it being an instant, why do you run Fire Covenant over Toxic Deluge? If that is the only reason, have you ever tested with Toxic Deluge and can you give a specific situation where is Fire Covenant better?

DimirAgent8: The conversation I think was archived but the long and short of it is that you don't lose your creatures. And while you don't get rid of everything, you can deal with the pesky stuff which is why you'd be wiping in the first place.

zfuqua91: Muddle is a very good card for this style of deck and is a great budget replacement for decks that cant afford the big money tutors. It has gone in and out of the deck. My only issues with it is that it just grabs my scepter combo and I prefer tutors that grab stuff for many different situations.

DimirAgent8: as enpc explained it is a more specific type of "board wipe" and at instant speed. These things definitely matter to me. It is very much a meta call though. In casual circles Toxic Deluge is almost strictly better. I once lost to an angry omnath deck with my zurgo voltron deck because I couldnt wipe his army of 5/5 elementals before they got out of hand without dying since I had Fire Covenant in play. In ultra competitive circles, hate bears and dorks are more prevalent than bigger creatures so I can usually kill most the board for a minimal life loss. This is also an all in combo deck. If I take out an opponents best creature or commander with deluge but lose my birds of paradise that may set me back a turn or two. The instant speed is very important because lets say I pass turn with mana up. My opponent drops a Kataki, War's Wage on thier turn. With deluge I will likely either lose many artifacts or tap myself out on my next turn and be able to ONLY cast deluge. With covenant I can take out war wage on their end step along with other offensive cards, and have all my mana available on my turn to win. If I dont need fire covenant I can use that mana to tutor or use Thrasios' ability. The specificity is important because I can kill a card that stops me cold (i.e Spirit of the Labyrinth) while sparing a card that doesnt hurt me at all but holds another deck in check (i.e Containment Priest).

But you're seeing Muddle the Mixture as only a tutor. But its a negate with a secondary tutor effect. It fills the spot of Swan Song far better. Yea swan song is one mana but muddle does the same thing only hit also hits your combo. There's no reason not to run it.

One colored mana is a huge difference in cEDH. It is truly the difference between winning and losing most games. There is a reason Swan Song is a staple in cEDH and Counterspell and muddle sees limited play. In a 4 color deck I even sometimes cringe when I see Mana Drain, but it at least ramps me. This deck is very aggressive, so I will rarely use it as a counterspell. With that being said I agree its a powerful effect in a low cost card and I have had success with transmute tutors in the past. I am not cutting Swan Song. Are there cards you would consider expendable as I want to find room for Copy Artifact too.

Swan Song hits Nether Void, Rule of Law, Back to Basics, Stony Silence and that's to name a few of the enchantments that are incredibly hard for this deck to deal with. As Lilbrudder mentioned, UU is far to expensive a cost for the affect the card does. There exists a flurry of counterspells that are superior to Muddle the Mixture so there many reasons not to run it. There exists enough tutors in this game that a conditional 3 mana tutor is not making the cut for this list.

Lilbrudder: I think some lands worth testing are Spire of Industry and Tarnished Citadel. The latter is a 5 color land while the former is great after turn 1. The only downside is you cannot cast an elf turn 1 which is less relevant for this deck than most other elf ramp decks.

As for Copy Artifact, I've been thinking about it. Let me know how it goes. I still hold Preordain/Ponder are some of the weaker cards in this list. Past those, Mystic Remora, Whispering Madness, and Llanowar Elves are only passable.

Preordain is definitely cuttable especially since Thrasios is so effective mid combo and copying a 2-3 mana rock is very relevant most of the time.

iamyoona: I have been testing main phase Ad Nauseam's to try and go off a turn earlier and the deck is close to being able to pull it off most games. I am loathe to cut any card advantage, but I am starting to see the disadvantages of a spell like Whispering Madness, which is fairly bad a good proportion of the time. I agree with most of the cards you mentioned as weakpoints in the deck. What would you add in thier place?

Copy Artifact has been very good by the way and stealing an ad naus from an opponent with Praetor's Grasp is pretty incredible too. Literally just target the blue or black mage and you are golden with that card. Soo many goodies to choose from.

As somebody who has never actually played Ad Nauseam in really life, realistically how many cards do you normally see off of it?

With an Avg CC between 1.60 and 1.70 and a metric ton of ramp you could see 20+ cards on turn 2-3 and still have life to spend for cards like Vampiric Tutor and Gitaxian Probe. With Winds of Change you will see 30+ distinct cards for just 6 mana. Right now I am netting 15 to 20 cards but taking Dark Petition, Whispering Madness; and Force of Will on the chin is keeping me from where I want to be.

Strong options for this more aggressive plan include Culling the Weak, Urza's Bauble; Candelabra of Tawnos; Transmute Artifact; Whir of Invention; Wildest Dreams; Squandered Resources etc.

All I need to generate beyond the cost of tutors is 4 mana for Dramatic reversal+Isochron Scepter or 5 mana for Paradox Engine and its essentially GG. That is one reason for copy artifact. If it copys grim monolith or mana vault I net 1 mana. Squandered resources on turn 3 nets 1 mana. Culling the weak nets 3 mana if my target is in play 2 mana if not.

This would kind of be poetic in that to achieve greatness I must destroy everything around me. That just gave me a chuckle :-)