How is Mox Diamond going now that you have such a low land count? I get once you've AN'd for a boatload of cards it's fine but it seems a bit tight before that.

Honestly quite well due to the way the deck functions. I admittedly havent tested it much at 27 lands but its almost always a viable early game play at 28.

Lets say I have an opening hand with 2 lands a 2 mana rock and a wheel. Turn one I play my land diamond discarding my other land, the use that mana to play a 2 mana rock. If its not a signet I can usually play a 1 mana spell like ponder to get my second land. If not I can wheel for a fresh 7 on turn 2 and hit my land drop that way.

Pretty much every game if I dont have a way to assemble an early dramatic scepter or engine with a way to go off right after this deck goes for:

1) A turn 1-2 wheel2) A turn 1-2 necropotence3) A turn 2-3 Ad nauseam

If Those fail we can grind out advantage with Thrasios, Mystic Remora, Sylvan Library and my many cheap draw spells to get the cards needed to combo off. In short, I honestly cannot remember the last time I had an opening mox diamond where it was a dead card. Even when it gets wheeled away I can use it with Yawgmoth's Will later.

dude i just played this in fnm edh 1 on 1 ......... went undefeated it was nuts i took out few cards to sppeed it up some

What cards?

i took out led cause well dint have 1 lol replaced it with chaos warp helped me sooo much adnause is too good to lose and i say jaces arctavice was slow but good in deck i run out of cards fast in my hand so i added litral baby jace sped things up nicly also didnt have seal soooo i putseamon visiions in it witch i saw u did too lol and have u thought of frantic search?i hit lands sooo much off thrisious its redickulas lol

I have a couple more thoughts after some long hours of testing this weekend. (Take this one with a grain of salt as it might not be as relevant since you're going all-in and our metas are completely different.)

IMO, Training Grounds is good for both the grindy matchups against stax/control as well as helping Thrasios, Triton Hero combo off. I underestimated this card greatly but it's definitely well situated in my stax/control group.

I threw in Mental Misstep and have not regretted it. Now currently considering Misdirection. Chain of Vapor came in for Cyclonic Rift for me. The latter is amazing in general but in a list like this, the 1 mana difference and utility difference is better than the alternative 7 mana effect of Rift.

I cut Whispering Madness from my list. It's a bit too low impact for 4 mana. I still like Leovold, Emissary of Trest and Notion Thief as I think I'm still more in the turn 4-5 kill plan.

I think you should cut Reality Shift. Praetor's Grasp fulfills the same roll as Reality Shift as they're both win conditions but I think the list actually is a bit clunky with disruption (never thought I'd say that as I'm a huge proponent of disruption in EDH.) Grasp is a better win condition and better card in general. (I found through testing that Grasp is actually amazing at killing when recurred and I never put Reality Shift on Isochron so it's not relevant the 1 cmc difference.)

z2aaa: Baby jace, chaos warp, and frantic search are excellent cards. I have been tempted to add them myself in the past and still may give them a try at some point. I think serum visions is scraping the bottom of the barrel a bit on cantrips tbh.

iamyoona: I totally agree on Training Grounds It feels like a great midrange card. I am very iffy on the value of a card like misdirection. It feels so borderline playable regardless of meta. Mental misstep is a great card and chain of vapor is a tremendous combo enabler as well as instant speed answer. I agree on whispering madness. Its a great budget option, but not optimal. Notion Thief and Leo are great midrange cards. I agree on reality shift. Now that I have made a small Scroll Rack of potential replacement cards on my primer I am less dead set on having 3 ways to win. The deck needs more combo protection anyways.

Paradoxical OutcomeWtf y u not running this

It doesn't work like it does in vintage. Sol ring, Mana crypt, grim monolith, mana vault, mox Opal add Mana. Talismans and signers don't. Without mox it's really not as strong of a card. I tested it and it felt underwhelming given your game plan. For that much Mana, you can basically just engine and you have so much card advantage already. Sorry for formatting. On mobile.

I ended up cutting reality shift because I would rather go for the win than interact and I still have grasp as a backup win condition.

In terms of artifact bounce, Hurkyl's Recall would be a decent option for midrange versions of the deck since it can also disrupt others and can help you get to engine with your net positive rocks. For this deck I am testing Retract, which will probably eventually become Spell Pierce since the deck is plenty fast enough and could benefit from more combo protection. Either way retract is pretty sexy on a main phase ad naus and protects my rocks from harm.

I understand the desire to play cards like Hurkyl's Recall and Retract and I agree the former is better for midrange while the latter fits the all in; however, I think these two cards are inherently fairly risky.

My argument for this lies in the fact that cantrips like Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain keep your engine going while maintaining your board state. For the two artifact bounce spells, you give your opponent's a chance to kill your engine in response to trying to recast your rocks. Yes, your opponent had the exact same opportunity to kill the engine while you were casting the cantrips but when you respond to the kill spell on a cantrip, you are able to generate additional mana; however, responding to playing your Sol Ring or Mana Crypt might cost you the mana required to go off.

This is obviously not a major case but it is definitely a case worth considering when testing cards like Retract and Hurkyl's Recall.

On another note, I'm starting to see more value in Mishra's Bauble and Urza's Bauble. The ability to keep the combo going is nice, the ability to generate card advantage is nice, and sometimes my hand just has too many answers and not enough plays. As I mentioned, I'm more of a control player at heart so I love having answers but in this deck, I think there is a lot of value to going off more consistently.

Thats fair, I am actually leaning towards recall to bounce opponents stax pieces. I dont think either is great at sustaining the engine since they bounce engine too, but they can help get there. Lets say I tap out for an early ad naus with something like mana vault I then play a few 0-1 mana rocks and get to 4. Bouncing all my rocks should get me to 5 where I can play engine, then cast a bauble or LED to start the combo.

Yeah the baubles have many subtle functions, but they are invaluable as an intial untap. I have gotten so many early victories because of them and wheeling then having a hand of 8 on turn 2 is pretty nice too

You had mentioned somewhere else the possibility of cutting some of the two mana artifacts (or am I crazy). How is it going on that front? What card(s) would replace those artifacts? Your deck is the first storm deck I have seen not to play Force of Will. Another notable omission from your deck is Worldly Tutor.

Crap, the comment about Worldly Tutor was meant for the Tymna version of this deck. Do you still consider the red version superior to the white?

Its slighty more focused so yes. FOW is great but being a 5 mana spell makes it not worth it.

So after seeing the deck in the tourney I am dropping llanowar elves for bloom tender and simic signet for carpet of flowers, urborg tomb of yawgmoth, for tarnished citadel and urza's bauble for everflowing chalice

Lilbrudder: FoW is a 0-mana spell that happens to have 5CMC, man.

Daedalus FoW is a 0-mana spell that happens to cost a card and blast you for 5 off of Ad Naus. I was stalking this forumn when he made the change and at first I was scandalized but now I find I agree with him.

Which tournament was this and how did you do? I read something about a deck stealing a win with Praetor's Grasp.

Carpet of Flowers is an auto include. I am assuming Force of Will is too big a hit to take with Ad Nauseam.

Which tournament was this and how did you do? I read something about a deck stealing a win with Praetor's Grasp.

Carpet of Flowers is an auto include. I am assuming Force of Will is too big a hit to take with Ad Nauseam.

Frank_Glascock: Its the cEDH reddit tourney and its ongoing. I am not the pilot actually. I was watching BarbeChenue playing an adjusted version of my list and he (?) won last night in epic fashion. Basically his card choices and his theft of Linvala, Keeper of Silence with grasp bought him the time needed to fight through multiple stax pieces to win the game. That was merely one of many huge plays and aside from one gaffe early :-), his performance was a thing of beauty. After seeing his card choices in action I am planning on adjusting the list accordingly.

Carpet is great. I didnt use it because it doesnt tap for value, but linvala and null rod are things so a more varied ramp package is nice.

I hear you Daedalus19876, but as Dunadain pointed out the main phase ad nauseam is a fragile thing. It often doesn't work if your cc is in the 1.7s. Also counterspells are somewhat meh for this build it wasnt a super hard cut.

Lilbrudder, you stated that you eliminated additional means to victory in favor of streamlining the deck. Now you have one in Aetherflux Reservoir with Praetor's Grasp being a pseudo and less consistent means to victory. Yet you state:
"I used to run more backup win conditions and think this is wise once your meta understands what you are doing most games, but to fully streamline the deck those options have been cut. Good backup win conditions include Grapeshot; Reality Shift ; and Walking Ballista."

What card would you remove to be replaced with one of the three additional wincons? This is relevant as many of us will be playing this deck at a store or online with a somewhat consistent group.

Probably Candelabra of Tawnos since it is just color fixing or Urza's Bauble/Everflowing Chalice since they are fairly low impact.

Of the three grapeshot is a better removal spell outside the finisher role but ballista can be a free untap and is better off ad naus. Reality shift is too dependent on opponents having a creature unless you keep candelabra and untap the forbidden orchard you put into play with Thrasios' ability

What I meant say grapeshot is better than ballista as a removal spell. Reality shift is the best removal spell

Which is the better Thrasios deck against massive counter magic?

I would say its a toss up. If you have multiple opponents tryingn to disrupt you then go white (silence), but red has better tools to deal with blue (pyroblast). If you need additional counter protection, Force of will, spell pierce, dispel, unsubstantiate, and red elemental blast are all solid options