Crap, you are bringing it today Lilbrudder. I am just too slow.

Yes you use thrasios to keep drawing your deck :-)

Lilbrudder: Thank you for the advice. Codex Shredder is definitely a no for my meta then. I forgot that the old titans did that.

Out of the current list the only things I am missing are the Timetwister and a few of the dual lands. However, If I am not mistaken, the Reality Shift combo can also be done with Noxious Revival, Regrowth, and Thrasios so that is still a reasonable win condition (cast Reality Shift, Noxious Revival it to top of library, draw it with Thrasios. Regrowth the Noxious Revival. Noxious Revival the Regrowth, draw with Thrasios. Repeat until opponents are dead).

I will likely end up trying out Walking Ballista as a backup win condition, but it is nice to know that there are many other options if I decide that I do not like it.

I dont think you can loop the Reality Shift that way but I could be mistaken. You can loop regrowth and noxious revival with Thrasios but not get another card out of it. Either way I just realized lightning bolt can win without candelabra so that is what I am running from now on. Also Frank_Glascock I forgot you need to regrowth or noxious revival timetwister to bring it back to hand for the loop I described

You are right. I was sequencing it in my head wrong. You can get one extra use out of the Reality Shift (or any spell for that matter) but then you are stuck looping the other two. Timetwister is necessary to actually win with the Reality Shift combo.

And one more question now that I thought of it. What do you normally tutor for with Intuition? I have never ran the card before and it seems like the type of card you need to set up so that there is no right answer for your opponent so I am guessing that Yawgmoth's Will should be one of the choices. Perhaps Regrowth and whatever other combo piece you needed.

3 wheels is a popular choice. 3 rocks, 3 removal spells, or if I have yawgwin in hand 3 combo pieces (ex mana vault+engine+sensei's divining top) because I will get all three the next turn. I dont put yawgmoth's will in my intuition piles though instead I use noxious revival and regrowth on my opponents endstep so at worst I pay 2 for the card next turn to ensure I get one piece I need. If someone is about to win put force of will in the pile as someone will give it to you. Beyond that its too situationally based to describe

I figured that it would usually just be situational but the scenarios you described are still helpful. Thank you again for your advice.

Heya Lilbrudder, I've been playing something based on this list. Been really good for me, actually (6-0 in competitive prize matches, although I've lost other matches).

Two things. 1) Did you consider Rushing River for the Into the Roil spot?

2) how do you feel about Dark Confidant or his little brother Night's Whisper?

mmcgeach: Thank you for the update. I am glad you are having success with your Thrasios brew. I have considered Dark Confidant. He is a very good card but he is not an ideal fit here since he does not tap for value. Night's Whisper is in my experience very solid but fairly low impact. The type of cards I value are either spells or something that has a big effect like a wheel or combo piece. I don't generally utilize many incremental draw engines if that makes sense. I have never seen rushing roil before, that is pretty cool. My only issue is the cc and I like the option of drawing a card. I will definitely test it tho to see how it performs.

Lilbrudder So I have played about 30 or so games with my version which is more or less this list just missing a few of the hyper-expensive cards and it has been incredibly good. In that time, I have had three people recommend that I try Baral, Chief of Compliance and the more I think about it, the more I think that he deserves a spot. The cost discounting and occasional relevance when countering spells seems incredibly good with all of the rituals for such a low mana investment. Actually netting mana off of stuff like Manamorphose or just having Cabal Ritual be another Dark Ritual can make or break a win off of an early Ad Nauseam or Yawgmoth's Will. I will try it out in place of one of the cards I am missing, but I think that it may even have a place in the fully optimized list.

Decrepit_Angel: I am happy the deck is performing for you. Baral is very intriguing. Hes essentially a strictly better Goblin Electromancer which I tested in an early version of the deck. Goblin was good but the color requirement made him difficult to cast. Now that the deck is more interactive his loot ability is far more relevant. I will definitely test him out once I get back to this list in a week or so (currently working on SBT and Leo atm). Thank you!

Baral, oh my! I think that might be an idea! Even the looting part can be relevant. Filling the grave fuels future Yawgwill. Heck, you can even, in a pinch, counter your own spells with Paradox Engine out to draw into solutions.

This was a necessary evolution. I am glad all the discussion will be focused on one list with you leading.

How's Astral Cornucopia working? Seems like you'd either be casting it for 0 to get storm up, or for 3 as a bad rock.

Heya. Nice to see the update. And I'm glad to hear that Baral was tested thoroughly. I tried it and it was marginal, but it is a tempting card. Good to get the verdict on it solidly one way or the other.

Also I have similar feelings about Sylvan Library: it seems really good but paying 8 life twice is too much life, basically. People send their dorks at you and you'd rather be using that life on an Ad Naus or a Necropotence, and it all kinda adds up. I feel like Sylvan Library is frequently basically a one-time draw-2.

I have to say, I'm sad to see Waste Not go. It was a pretty strong engine; I played a lot of games with early Waste Not, then set up a protected Wheel a few turns later. Also got a bunch of draws of someone else's necropotence when they drew ~15 cards then discarded a handful. It always felt like one of the strongest cards in the deck, but one that other people undervalued, or let sit until it became a problem.

Have you reconsidered cutting Gemstone Caverns for another basic?

fatdroid13: The card is suprisingly decent in this deck. We can often produce plenty of mana quickly so paying three for a rock that can tap for any color that can be used that turn cycle is usually worth it. I often play it for 0 early to Transmute Artifact it into something like Mana Crypt or as a way to activate Mox Opal turn 1. I don't usually care about the storm count as we almost always just go infinite. Where the card shines is that it serves as a free Dramatic Reversal after I play engine or as a massive color fixer for 6-9 mana after we have untapped a few times post engine and are drowning in spare colorless mana.

mmcgeach: Hey man good to hear from you! Your experience with Sylvan Library is pretty dead on with mine. I ultimately would rather just run something like lim duls vault that will easily win me the game the turn after I cast it than a draw engine that costs life I would rather spend on better cards.

I am a big fan of Waste Not, but it is too narrow for this particular list and feels bad if I dont have windfall or wheel of fortune handy. It does enable some really early victories, but not as consistently as other enablers available to us. With that being said I could see replacing a big money card like timetwister or inperial seal with waste not if budget is a barrier. It is incredible in my budget list that runs both whispering madness and jace's archivist, and in wheel heavy metas it becomes too good to pass up. Either way if you love it, by all means play it. It does offer some extremely fun and complex lines to victory.

Frank_Glascock: Not really. I know alot of people hate gemstome caverns, but I love its explosiveness. The only reason to go with more basics is nonbasic hate and that is a meta decision. I aim to make meta free decks, but if you feel the need for it, however, please dont hesitate to sub a swamp in as Gemstone Caverns is the right swap.

I see quite a few updates to the list since I was here last and quite frankly, I do not understand them.

Llanowar Elves seems out of place in a 4 color deck primarily splashing R and G. Even at 2 mana, I feel that Bloom Tender would be better at least 90% of the time due to the fact it can actually make more relevant colors. I understand the Notion Thief, but I strongly feel that cutting Jace, Vryn's Prodigy  ^Flip is a mistake. Also, what purpose does Winds of Change serve without Notion Thief in play? If Leovold, Emissary of Trest wasn't banned and you wanted to build the list more around resource denial to give you more time to set up, I could see it, but I just don't get it. Also, Dark Petition was abhorrent in testing for me. The most comon way that I lose with the deck is by hitting poorly off of an Ad Nauseam, resulting in me drawing too few cards from it and not having enough resources to win. Every single time I ever hit Dark Petition of of an Ad Nauseam or just had it in hand while trying to win, it was an entirely dead card, or directly caused me to lose.

I could definitely be wrong about the changes, and it is possible I have just had bad experiences with some of these cards and are therefore judging them unjustly, but without an explanation, these changes do not feel like the appropriate direction for the deck to evolve.

Decrepit_Angel: Thank you for the excellent questions/observations. Have no fear an updated primer is in the works that will explain these decisions and more.

Llanowar Elves is significantly better than Bloom Tender for a variety of reasons. The biggest is simply that bloom tender is a trap. Its one of those cards that is great in theory, but is often counterproductive in practice. Whenever I play Bloom Tender in any list I feel a strong urge to warp my gameplan around tapping for absurd amounts of mana, which is usually way slower than playing rocks and tutors. The other issues are also important. Turn 1 ramp is fantastic. Turn 2 ramp that cannot be used the turn you play it is bad. Also paradox storm has nowhere near enough colored symbols to support the card. If I were running Kess, leovold, and notion thief (along with several other solid colored permanents) it might be worth it, but 90% of the time it is strictly worse than a turn 1 dork. This deck has no trouble casting a dork on turn 1 and that essentially guarantees a turn 2 wheel or turn 3 ad naus.

Cutting Jace was sort of an accident. I remember now that I did it to see if I miss him and come to find out I forgot I had cut him so I guess he is not an essential card, merely a very good one. Jace can be phenomenal if you play him early enough, and I will likely find room for him, but he is significantly worse than my other 3 recursion spells.

Dark Petition is about 100 times better than Fabricate. At the end of the day I could no longer justify a really slow and limited tutor simply to save 2cc for Ad Naus. Petition is fantastic with necropotence, yawgwin lines, notion thief shenanighans, and dramatic scepter combo. It is only slightly worse for ad naus as it is something I would actually cast post ad naus (unlike fabricate). It also tutors for ad naus (unlike fabricate). So while I am kind of weakening the main phase ad naus, it makes every other aspect of my deck stronger. With creature based decks taking over cEDH (blood pod/hulkweaver/Raz decks) this is not a good time to be a dedicated ad naus deck. We need to be more adaptable. That is the reason for my changes.

With that being said, I hope you don't think I am abandoning main phase ad naus all together. In addition to making Notion Thief a 5 mana win condition, Winds of Change is absolutely one of the best cards to have in hand post ad naus. It allows us to play all net positive spells then draw a fresh 25-30 cards for . So while we occassionally draw less cards off ad naus we have the tech (between this and a number of other tricks I will explain soon) to still get there consistently without having to pass on really good cards at the top of our curve. With that being said, if you want to keep your curve low then do it! Its a hell of a lot of fun to draw 35-40 cards off ad naus after all. The updated primer will explain how to cater paradox storm to any meta and playstyle. I hope I answered your questions sufficiently.

The difference between you and Sigi's list is down to four cards if I counted right. If you had to add three of Baral, Chief of Compliance, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy  ^Flip, Delay, or Sylvan Library which three woild make it and what would be cut?

Was Dan's and Sigi's experience with Tainted Pact the tipping point or did you come to the same conclusion through experience? It seems like a more all in card which fits your style.

Frank_Glascock I like JVP the most by a fair margin. As for pact, its certainly good enough most of the time, but I agree that if I am not using it as an alt wincon it is sometimes too risky to justify. Merchant scroll gets me what I need without risk even if I cannot do it on my endstep. I still think if you aren't greedy it will work out wonderfully more often than not, but its hardly an essential card.

Lilbrudder Thank you for the response and explanations. I have not encountered much in terms of the creature based cEDH decks so those changes make far more sense to me now. I'll try out the new changes and see if I end up agreeing with them after some testing. Also, I forgot to mention, I tried out Copy Artifact because I had one lying around. In the 15 or so times I have seen it, it has been absurdly good. It usually just copies a mana rock, but it does absurd things if you use it to copy an Aetherflux Reservoir if you are trying to storm off the "fair" way by just casting a bunch of spells. And a few days ago, I used it to copy an opponents Chromatic Lantern while there was a Blood Moon in play which actually allowed me to play that game. If you haven't already tried it, I would give it a shot.

Weird, Bloom Tender was basically a game-winner everytime I cast it. Tapping for 4 mana is just so good with paradox engine or thrasios, I can't imagine cutting it. Although, I like it better in the white version where you get more value out of playing Tymna, so having both generals in play is more common.

I love Bloom Tender in sans red, but sans white us a different beast altogether imo.

So here is some hopefully useful data about my experience (25 or so games) with the updated list:

Notion Thief + Winds of Change/any other wheel effect: has been decent but fragile and I rarely ever want to tutor for one of these. Winds of Change in particular has been incredibly bad when I did not have the Notion Thief or if it was not cast post Ad Nauseam to mix up my hand. This is to be expected but I am still not sold on this card. For now, I will continue testing it to see if my opinion changes.

I still think this combo needs some more redundancy in case Notion Thief gets hit by removal or is taken by a Praetor's Grasp effect. If only Leovold, Emissary of Trest wasn't banned. The removal spell problem happens a lot considering this deck does not run a lot of relevant creatures to remove so I have noticed a lot of the time the rest of the table ends up "stockpiling" on creature removal. I can usually Force of Will my way through one or even two, but when there are 4+ removal spells that have been dead against our deck the whole game finally being useful again, it is hard to get this combo to work.

Tormod's Crypt: even with a bunch of graveyard decks floating around my meta, I have been incredibly disappointed by this. Although it is good as a free untap after a Paradox Engine, I would almost always prefer another source of acceleration or at least a card that cycles upon use. Relic of Progenitus is bad because it hits our own graveyard so I recommend Nihil Spellbomb. I feel the 1 extra mana is entirely justified because it can replace itself when it is not needed or to keep you up on resources if it is needed.

Llanowar Elves: I understand why turn 1 acceleration is important, but this card has been terrible for me in testing. Green mana is almost always irrelevant so it might as well just make colorless and mana dorks are mediocre on Paradox Engine lines because they are far more vulnerable to removal and cannot be used the turn I play them. If this was a more dedicated mana dork deck that could abuse Gaea's Cradle, I would like it far more, but I am not a fan. I would at least consider Candelabra of Tawnos as a potential replacement due to how good it is on Paradox Engine lines to just filter away the abyss of colorless mana we make into actually relevant mana. Candelabra of Tawnos can also help you fight through Back to Basics effects which are incredibly good against this deck (and have picked up in popularity since all of the 4 color flash+hulk decks took over).

Dark Petition: I finally actually had some good experience with this card and I do believe it is better than Fabricate. Although the 5cmc hurts on Ad Nauseam lines, the explosiveness of this card on Necropotence/Yawgmoth's Will lines is very good. Not a fan of it for Notion Thief/Wheel of Fortune lines considering the BBB is not particularly relevant but it is at least reasonable.