May someone please explain the changes.

rgwenceslao: I am not a fan of any of those cards. The issue is they are one shot effects you usually only want to blow on the combo turn. Wall of timbers and rain of filth are the best of the bunch, but with where cEDH is headed these types of enablers wont cut it.

Kross33: I am trying some things out and shifting around the worst 5-8 slots in the deck. I think the future of this archetype is to go less pure speed/manual storm and more resilient midrange value cards. The win on now is get to a combo and do things like loop nature's claim into more life than opponents then kill table with giant rolling earthquake or just infinite swans with infinite counter pass turn etc. Its mostly a tryout for the 2-3 cards that are worth including. One card I may include as a "wincon" is Cremate. It can get ppl and it is self replacing for a single black.

Lilbrudder: As a one shot effect, I do have to say that High Tide has been showing some promise. I have tweaked the island count to assist with this however it can be very helpful in deploying Paradox Engine while still having countermagic mana open. I also run Kiora's Follower (since I'm still running Birthing Pod) and Bloom Tender (I know your opinion on this card :P) and have been testing Freed from the Real as a backup line. A bit narrow I know, but it's been pretty good thus far.

On the topic of Cremate, what're your thoughts on Scarab Feast instead? While you don't draw cards off the ability natively, the fact that it hits three cards at once seems a lot better at hosing graveyard based decks like Kess. But it it still provides card advantage against non-graveyard decks.

Also, how has Training Grounds been performing for you? I'm currently testing it out but haven't seen in much.

one last question, since you're comfortable running Culling the Weak, have you considered running Diabolic Intent?

What happens if Timetwister gets exiled (ex. Praetor's Grasp) and you can't counter? Wincons are solely dependent on twister loops without Aetherflux Reservoir don't you think? What is the secondary wincon outside of Twister loops?

Can you also explain why you decided to remove Windfall from the deck? Doesn't this decrease Notion Thief's synergy and some hand refill when need it after you put down all your rocks or dorks?

Diabolic Intent was removed but Culling the Weak is still here? I mean do you often find yourself needing the mana instead of searching for a card in exchange for a creature? Or Culling the Weak stays because it helps cast Paradox?

Lastly, I still can't seem to justify Arbor Elf in my list as there were a lot of times I have it on hand and no Forest at all given that this deck is 4-colored.

Your inputs are appreciated.

enpc: Yeah High tide is very good. I am experimenting with it in a version of this deck I made as an excuse to fit bonus round into a deck (even if it's maybe not good enough). I could see scarab feast as another option. Ultimately there is likely 15 or so cards that could fill that niche. I ultimately dont think training grounds is good enough. I will probably end up cutting it. Diabolic intent is pretty bad here. Its ultimately a pay UG1B for a demonic tutor effect. Culling in contrast facilitates protected nauses on curve and is net positive post naus even if I have to cast a dork then sac it. I am unsure if either is worth a slot but I love the explosiveness culling provides.

rgwenceslao: I am not worried about grasp. Using it to kill someone's wincons is not a good play and we can win without twister. With paradox engine in play we can imprint noxious revival on scepter to essentially approximate loops. If you wanted more redundancy you could add copy artifact to double scepter. I basically have found I never manually storm with the deck. I either go infinite or fizzle so running an almost do nothing 4 drop artifact feel bad. I dropped windfall because its fairly bad a lot of the time. Drawing 4ish cards is just not worth it and I rarely want to wheel outside combo situations or really early. Sure it hurts thief a little, but I am moving away from wheel combo a bit and I am generally happy with 2 wheels along side thief. Culling helps the deck get there faster even if I go via thrasios. Diabolic is a very slow tutor in this deck and not worth running with less than 20 creatures imo. Cutting Arbor elf is totally justifiable. I like high concentrations of turn 1 ramp but arbor is questionable.

Lilbrudder: I understand now what you did and it's just genius! I love the recent changes I have to say. Regarding an alternative win-con, you mentioned Cremate, how about using Faerie Macabre instead. It can only be stifled and it also stops reanimate decks like breakfast hulk, and it's free to cast.

rgwenceslao: I think macabre could work. It's certainly the best gotcha! card in cEDH against graveyard shenanigans. With that being said having an outlet that doesnt contribute to my gameplan in some way and is 3 cmc for naus is a bit too costly for my purposes. Cremate at the very least is cheap and it draws into topdeck tutors for b (which is super relevant given our highish concentration of black rituals). Nonetheless Macabre is one of 15 or so cards that could work so I think it ultimately comes down to what you face. The cleanest win right now and possibly more relevant than ever is lightning bolt as it directly kills off scepter+ engine or double scepter without any overly complicated garbage. It also helps against nonsense like Godo, Tymna, etc

Thoughts on C18 cards? I'm thinking of testing out Tawnos myself, and maybe a Treasure Nabber if I have the slot for it.

Still no room for Spellseeker? It can get you Demonic Tutor, Dramatic Reversal or them counter spells.

Any thoughts on adding Rings of Brighthearth, Basalt Monolith, Copy Artifact and Power Artifact for more pieces to get to unlimited mana?

Astral Cornucopia...bruh? No dead cards? Please...

Still not sold on Ancestral Curiosity for this deck and Flash Hulk?

Lilbrudder, any updates on your list? What are your thoughts on Assassin's Trophy? I am currently testing this and I find it very powerful. It can also be a win-con when you imprint it to Isochron Scepter with Paradox Engine in play. When you have Vial Smasher the Fierce in play, it will be faster.

Also, please disregard my last post about Ancestral Curiosity. I’ve tried it and I realized that the deck’s original goals were very much disrupted. I mean, instead of tutoring for Paradox, since you already have Firebrand Archer in play, you tutor for Curiosity. I feel that if this deck will go this route, a huge chunk of our pieces will have to go especially control cards. I personally didn’t like that since I do have so much fun controlling the board somehow.

Anyway, looking forward to your updates, it has been 3 months already.

By the way, what do you think of these adjustments on my version?

Exclusions:

1. Merchant Scroll - This is tough because it is still a tutor. But with a bunch of cantrips and card draw, I either get what I need or get better tutors in hand.

2. Training Grounds - Becomes a hot target when Thrasios is in play.

3. Natural State - replaced by Assassin’s Trophy

Additions:

1. Rhystic Study - I usually have a creature heavy playgroup, so Mystic Remora sometimes doesn’t give much.

2. Windfall - I just think this is still a powerful card. Synergizes strongly with Notion Thief, Yawgmoth’s Will and it can give you more cards.

3. Assassin's Trophy - oh man, how I love this card.

Whoa I've missed alot. I left for a while so my apologies. I will address all the comments in the morning. I've taken a stab at updating the deck. Not 100% on it but it's a start rgwenceslao.

VelvetVendetta: The primer is obsolete I dont play that card. It was designed for a different time with different standards for card quality.

GiveMeSSRS: Nabber is pretty intruiging but it would have to be in a meta with tons of rocks. I dont like Tawnos.

rgwenceslao: I addressed most of your comments in the update. However I missed some. Basically you are right merchant scroll and training ground are iffy. I like your proposed changes except for windfall. It's just often a bad card. I am going eith curiosity effects for smasher because they are powerful engines (that dont require loads of colorless mana each turn to be useful) and without them and extra board wipes you should play Sans Red instead. Extra combo pieces are bad but I decided to replace grim tutor with tainted pact for mana effickncy so copy artifact helps with redundancy (for those times I exile stuff) while also being quite good on its own. I think spellseeker is too slow to be worth it. Grim tutor is better here and I just cut it.

What're your thoughts on AEther Flash? I know it's a bit of a bizarre cards, but it outright kills Najeela, Tymna, Tana, and most mana dorks on the spot. And while it shuts down your mana dorks and Notion Thief, it does the same to opponents' thieves.

Unfortunately it doesn't hose flash hulk but it hoses quite a few powerful decks.

I know it might be completely off the mark, but I thought it was at least worth asking.

It's a really interesting card. It actually could shit on a lot of hulk and Raza decks as it kills Raza/hulks dorks and utility creatures (ewitness, LRW, Blood artist). I dont know of a hulk deck that can win through it. The issue is that it may come down too late. I am not sure if this is the deck for it but it is a really funny effect. It also stops labman wins.

The problem with the new Gaea's Blessing breakfast hulk combo is that the package moves at instant speed so they can just do everything in response to the damage tigger. Plus they don't have to fetch Viscera Seer (you can use the damage trigger to kill Narcomoeba) so you can get Grand Abolisher. But other than that situation, it craps on traditional breakfast hulk, yes.

Your other option could be the inclusion of a ping creature. There are four that are worth mention:

1. Cunning Sparkmage - Fairly basic but has haste, so he can do his thing the turn he drops.

2. Gelectrode - No haste but is a powerhouse and does work with Curiosity/Keen Sense.

3. Vithian Stinger - No haste but can be unearthed on combo turn, giving him more resilience.

4. Izzet Staticaster - doesn't double as a combo piece but is a house as far as killing off dorks.

I'm not sure if they're good enough for the deck, however they feel anti-meta since there is such a reliance on aman dorks and in general 1 toughness creatures. And the fact that other than Staticaster, they can all be coupled with Keen Sense/Curiosity for CA and with Dramatic Scepter to act as a win condition.

By the way, I had a crack at putting together a meta hate list (sorry about the double post):

Salt Encrusted

Commander / EDH* enpc

0 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER

So lots of stuff to pick apart single piece combo decks and to hate on creature heavy strategies. Also runs some library hate to shut down FCT and hulk lists. Be keen to get your thoughts/hope it gives some ideas.

Lilbrudder, I like the addition of Keen Sense and Curiosity without the creatures as this now allows us to give a little thought about casting our poor Vial Smasher. It's actually sad that it's just always there in the command zone. We can now take advantage of a 9 card start.

The removal of LED (still gives us a Paradox trigger) is interesting and I like the addition of Dispel and Tainted Pact but... I think Dispel is another dead card when Paradox is in play. I do understand the solidification of our control build so this made me think that maybe Unsubstantiate might be a better choice over Dispel because you can target permanents and return spells to hand. This is also powerful against creature heavy decks. Sometimes, we wish we had mana drain or into the roil to counter/bounce big creatures, but most of the time, we don't. This card will help out on that. It counters spells, bounces creatures and gives a Paradox trigger.

I haven't checked all your changes but the list looks solid and updated now. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. :)

Hi, are Isochron Scepter combos not worth playing anymore? I see a lot of list cutting it even though it compliments Sensei's Divining Top and list that play Aetherflux Reservoir ?

enpc: I really don't want any more combo pieces as PST. I am more interested in CA engines and aside from Vial Smasher I don't want to support the curiosity cards. I'll take a look at your list soon.

rgwenceslao: I know dispel is dead on the manual engine turn but I don't necessarily want to build around it too much. Given how interactive cEDH has become having a cheap hard counter in a counter war is just too much value to pass up. Unsubstantiate is a decent compromise between PE utility and the ability to interact.

Kross33: Scepter combos are still great as far as I am concerned and no rock heavy Thrasios deck should pass up on the combo because its so efficient with so few dead cards. The only lists I have seen that are dropping it are ones that don't have an infinite outlet in the command zone. Namely pure storm lists.

Hi Lilbrudder, Just curious if you have updates on your list. Your thoughts on the following cards:

• Compost
• Verity Circle
• Divergent Transformations

Thanks

Any tips or card choices for the breakfast/shuffle hulk matchup?