I really tried, very, very hard, to make this deck no more then 60 cards. But it's all Sky's fault, lol, because Mystic Retrieval, is such a great 3 of in this deck.

But the problem with staying at 60 to 61 cards, while adding 2 or 3 Mystic Retrievals, was running 3 Ponders, and 3 Noxious Revival s, which was not enough Ponder's, and Noxious Revivals.

So the only possible was to add 2 or 3 mystic retrievals, without messing up the deck, was to goto 63 cards, 23 lands.

I really didn't want to do that though, because card drawing, and card draw odds, are such a big, huge part of this deck. If the deck has any drawing problems it will lose a lot more often then other deck that have drawing problems.

But then it occured to me that as long as have 4 ponder's and 3 of all of the other cards, and card draw cards, that the deck would be ok at more then 60 cards, because of all the card draw in the deck.

It also occurred to me that if the deck has 63,64 cards, that the 3 of each of the 2 different miracles, won't end up in the opening hand as often. And that's a good thing, because you don't want the miracle cards to be in the opening hand.

This deck is truly one of those deck that is truly a exception to the rule of no more then 60 cards.

With this kind of deck more then 60 cards, is better then no more then 60 cards.

So that's why there are more then 60 card in the deck.

Hey mikedh1 I looked at your sideboarding and against all the listed decks you SB in Dissipate. If you would almost always SB out something for Dissipate, why not just take that card to put Dissipate in your mainboard? And if nothing is worth taking out, then why would you sideboard out something for it against almost every deck?

Rockclimber, the reason why Merfolk Looter is in the deck is to be able to cast the miracle cards, during opponent's turns. Looter also helps faithless looting to discard miracle cards from the opening hand, and hand after opening hand, in case you accidently draw miracle cards to your hand.

Yes Looter can be a problem mid to late game. Yes you have to be careful with looter because of that. But that's why you try to hold onto cards in hand, and why you try to play ponder as much as possible.

I think I either misread or misunderstood Cryptoplasm. I thought it worked like Phyrexian Metamorph , and Phantasmal Image, in that it would come into play as a copied Snapcaster Mage to flash cast stuff, and then copy something different each turn. But cryptoplasm doesn't work that way.

So I have a question about Image, if I try to bounce image back to my hand, so that I can copy snapcaster flash cast something again, does image get bounced back to my hand, or does it go to the graveyard, because it was targeted by a spell?

but even if Image isn't sacrificed to graveyard,and is instead bounced to my hand, I think I might run Metamorph.

And to 4 Increasing Vengeance, I think 4 is to many, because I would have to take other important stuff out, and 4 of them, with their 2 red mana cost, would be harder on the mana base then 3 of them would be.

Also Forbidden Alchemy isn't a good fit because you want to try to use ponder to set up a top deck draw,cast of the miracle cards first. The discard, and recovery by noxious revival is for when you accidentally draw the miracle cards into your hand.

Also if you purposely Forbidden Alchemy discard miracle cards to your graveyard, then if you don't get any Noxious revivals, you would be screwed, And then Noxious Revival wouldn't last as long, or be used as many time to cast as many miracles, as you could, if you first Ponder,to set a miracle card up,drew it, casted it, noxious revival put it back on top of library, draw it, cast it, etc.

Also since you can play Noxious Revival with 2 life, why don't you take out your Hinterland Harbors for more islands and mountains to keep your mana base more consistent? Yes it would be kind of a risk paying life but at the same time, you are risking not being able to cast Increasing Vengeance.

I would just take out the delvers for some Vexing Devils

I would just take out the delvers for some Vexing Devils

Mistory: the reasons why the dissipates aren't main decked:

1. Not enough room. 2. Can't cut more important stuff. 3. Notice the side out slot list is -1 this, -1 that, etc. 4. the reason why you don't -1 this, and -1 that, and main board the 2 dissipates, is that in a game 1 of a 3 game match, your not sure if you are going to need those extra counterspells or not. 5. just because I have 2 dissipates listed as side in's for 65 to 75% of the decks out there, doesn't mean that I am going to have to use them. 6. The reason why the dissipates are listed, is because they are OPTIONS, that are avaliable in matchups should I need them. 7. when you play a 3 game match. you don't take out 1 of almost everything and put your whole sideboard into your deck, so that you are playing with your whole sideboard in your deck all 3 games of a 3 game match.

Instead you play the first game of a 3 game match. And then if you have to sideboard your whole sideboard into your deck, by taking 1 of most everything out, for game 2, then thats when you do it, is during games 2,3.

And I am not saying to do that, that was just a example.

I usually sideboard in 4 to 7 cards, when I sideboard games 2,3. If I main decked the extra 2 counterpells, it would mess up my deck, because I would have things at 2 and 3 of's, instead of 3 and 4 ofs. And that would thin, dilute, stretch my deck out, and I wouldn't have as good card draw odds, which would be bad.

The time to water down, spread, thin, dilute, stretch your deck out a little bit, and thus to have worse card draw odds, is during games 2 and 3 of a 3 game match, and not game 1, of a 3 game match

Basically during games 2,3 of a 3 games match, your trading card draw odds, for more ANSWERS to deal with problems that come up during game 1 of a 3 game match.

Now sometimes you can get around that in some decks that have some cards, that can all be taken out, instead of -1 this card, or -1 that card.

For example in my werewolf deck. I can sometimes completely side out the 2 main board naturalizes.

But I can't do that with this deck, as almost every card in the deck isn't situational, I can't afford to take out 2,3 of any card in the deck.

if I could take out 2,3 of any 1 card in the deck, that would mean that i had room to main board 2 dissipates, and probably would. But I cant do that, because I can't take out 2,3 of any card in the deck. Each card in the deck is that important to the deck.

That makes sense.

If I can bounce Vexing Devil, before I would have to sac the vexing devil, then vexing devil would be better then Delver.

but players are probably be more willing to take the 4 damage, then to allow me to have a 4/3 for 1 red. and if thats the case, then if I run Vexing devils, over Delver, then I risk having almost no creatures on the board.

The Delver's make sure I at least have some sort of creature presence on the board.

If I run vexing devils,, then I might not be able to have any creature presence on the board. And IF that happens, I had better be able to use the miracle cards and the 4 damage from Vexing devil to win, or I will lose

Now if I can play vexing devil do 4 damage with it, and then be able to bounced it back to my hand, before I would have to sac it, then I could bounce replay it over and over

If I could do that with Vexing Devil, that would be worth turning the delvers into the vexing devils.

Ok the way I am understanding the text on vexing devils. The sac cost does NOT come BEFORE the 4 damage is done, but AFTER, the 4 damage is done.

If that's how it works then Vexing Devils does 4 damage, and then I Vapor Snag instant speed bounce it, before I would have to sac it.

But it may not work like that if the 4 damage thing and then the sacrificing it after the 4 damage thing, is part of 1 triggered ability, then I wouldn't be able to bounce it because it would all resolve before I would be able to bounce.

But if the 4 damage thing, and then sacrificing it after it does 4 damage, are 2 different abilities, or conditions, that say if condition triggered ability 1 goes off(doing 4 damage), then triggered ability 2 goes off(sacrificing it)

If that's the case, that would be 2 different abilities, or conditions happening, instead of just 1. And that would mean I could bounce vexing devils with Vapor Snag, after the first ability, condition resolves, and before the 2nd ability condition goes off..

So does anybody know if I can vapor Snag bounce vexing Devils, after it does the 4 damage, but before it has to be sacrificed?

I guess I could also go post it in the Q and A forum section.

Mistory: The reason why I need the green mana, is for Naturalize, when I side it in.

And that's why I put in the 1 Evolving Wild, and 1 Ghost quarter, to help me get mountains, help fix mana base.

I'll be short and sweet. I've been working up a similar list, which I'll share below. My thoughts:

1. Temporal Mastery is not very useful.
2. Delver of Secrets is your best card. Don't cut if for Vexing Devil, play both.
3. Increasing Vengeance, while flashy with miracles, is often getting discarded to looting because you don't have the double red, plus another R for whatever spell you're casting initially. I cut it from my list.
4. Mystic Retrieval is pretty much trash, pretty sure.

My list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-delver-burn-9/

your points:

1: your wrong its very useful. Most of us here could do mini articles on why and how it is useful. I usually get about 1.75 extra turns per game on average, usually, most of the time.

1. I agree.
2. Disagree. The reason why I get about 1.75 extra turns per game, and about 2.85 Thunderous wraths per game is because of Increasing vengeance. Yes sometimes it gets discarded to looting. instead of taking them out, you find a way to make them work, like improving your mana base,etc. that's why I have evolving wilds, and Ghost quarters, and 1 or 2 extra mountains then normal. Now my mana base works better, and I dont have as many problems with getting 3 red.
3. Disagree. Noxious Revival and Mystic Retrieval,etc, help me get more uses out of Revival that I use to put the miracle cards on top of the library to be cast over and over and over and over and over and over again.

I just realized that w/o Noxious Revival Mystic Retrieval is not very uselful. I'd do -1 retrieval +1 revival. Yes you can return Ponder and control cards but it has a high cmc, and that's what the flashback is for.

I noticed that only having 2 Phyrexian Metamorph, 3 Noxious Revival , 2,3 Mystic Retrieval, wasn't working that well. the mystic retrievals ate up to much mana.

I still think that if Mystic Retrieval was cheaper at say 3 cmc, instead of 4 cmc,and if had room for it, that it would be great for the deck.

Now that the deck has the 4 Noxious Revivals, and the 4 ponders, and the 3 Phyrexian Metamorphs, and the 3 Vexing Devil, that the deck runs really good right now.

The mana base is better now, 5 or 6 mountains is better.

Also about that, 5 or 6 mountains?

Also the 64 cards thing works just fine. the 4 ponders, 4 Noxious Revival, and 3 of everything else in the deck, and all the draw makes everything work just fine

Even the 3 mana leaks still come out pretty often. And the miracle cards don't usually end up in opening hand.

The Vexing Devils and metamorphs, really help the deck. The Devils combine with everything else to really make sure that I do enough damage combined from various sources to win.

So does anybody else have any more ideas?

Also if metamorph copies Vexing Devil, can it do 4 damage, and be sacrificed as well?

ok got that question answered. Metamorph can copy Vexing Devil.

So between 3 Vexing Devil, 3 Metamorphs copying Devil, and 3 Thunderous wraths, that's a lot of possible damage, that can be done.

updated the DECK BREAKDOWN , in the Deck Description.

Updated the sideboard out slot list.

anybody else, have any suggestions?

the deck is looking pretty good, and plays pretty well when play testing sample hands.

Since the the edit deck thing won't let me put in 3x [Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded], and 2x [Desolate Lighthouse], into the deck list.

Then I am turning the 3 Faithless Looting, into the 3 [Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded],(A 2 red mana cost planeswalker, that has a starting loyalty counter total of 2, and +1: draw card,discard a card. -4: do damage equal to cards in hand to your opponnent(maybe even creature,cant remember, only putting in if linking don't work),-8:take control of all creatures, until end of turn, they all have haste)

And 2 islands, into 2 [Desolate Lighthouse],(A specialty land that both taps for colorless mana, and tap, pay 1 colorless, 1 red, 1 blue, to draw a card,discard a card.)

Linking the new cards with [[]], and using the edit deck list to try and put the new cards into the deck list, both, do not work.

@mikedh1 look at this link, the red pw is not exactly as you said it, but similar.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/190

I don't think it will help your deck that much.

Desolate lighthouse would be great, though.

Yeah your right Mistory. I mislooked at, misread the card, and missed how it's draw ability works like desperate ravings draw ability, but with 1 less card drawn per random card discarded.

The damage according to how many cards in hand thing would be great in the deck. I could get it out turn 2,3, and then turn 5,6,7, do enough damage to help win the game.

But the problem with that and its low mana cost is it's 2 red, and random discard, and how long it would take to pop off its do damage, and creature stealing.

So I am going to run the 3 faithless looting, and the 2,3 Desolate Lighthouse. The only slight problem I see with lighthouse, is its 3 mana activation cost.

But if I really need to draw a card, or discard a miracle card, then it would be worth the 3 mana to activate lighthouse.

Its kind of fun and funny to see how new spoiled red,blue cards sometimes help this deck.

I really think that once the new set is completely out, that it will help this kind of deck, and will show that it was designed for this kind of deck and a few other kind of decks.

I just hope I don't have to play this kind of deck. And I probably won't be able to afford the $300 price tag of this deck.

Also it's funny that there is 1 guy who thinks $300 isn't expensive to a lot of magic players, and thinks the deck is extremely bad.

I think it would be funny if he played against the deck, and then then had to face 2 extra turns, 10 or 15 damage from Thunder wrath, 4 to 8 damage from Vex Devil,etc, and lost a match and didn't win a tourney and saw it win a tourney instead.

Changes: since 3 Desolate Lighthouse, and 3 Merfolk Looter, and 1 Faithless Looting, that makes it so that there's 7 cards that discard miracle cards, from opening hand, and hand after opening hand, then because of that, I turned 2 Faithless lootings, into 2 Think Twice

I think the 1 faithless looting is a ok 1 of, because it's part of 7 discarders, and because its still usefull, and because with all the draw in the deck, can still draw it.

The 2 think twice is at the right number of 2 of them, because can draw into them, an can flash back them, and can use them to draw,play a miracle card during the upkeep, before the draw step, which allows to draw a card during the draw step after the drawing of the miracle card during the upkeep, before the draw step.

And the 3 Desolate Light House, helps draw lands, if they cause any mana problems.

So because of that, and the ghost quarters, during play testing there was only a little tiny bit more mana problems, but that still didn't, and doesn't happen often enough to be a problem most of the time.

updated Deck Breakdown to reflect, mirror the changes made.

Changed,updated sideboard out slot list.

I agree, but I think you should turn the last Faithless Looting into another Merfolk Looter, because

a) Merfolk Looter is instant-speed draw that is still viable if you only have 2 mana open.

b) Most of the time when using Faithless Looting you will have to discard a non-miracle card you might need.

c) When you draw into a miracle card with Faithless Looting and have no Noxious Revival that's not going to help you, whereas when you use Merfolk Looter's ability on your opponent's turn, it is.

Good point Mistory. Also Looter is another creature, that can help build a creature base, and is a sideboard out slot game 2,3 of a 3 game match.

Thanks for pointing that out. Now to make the change.

Changes:

I noticed that 2 Think Twices didnt work well. But when I turned 1 of the 4 Merfolk Looters into 1 more think twice, for 3 of them instead of 2, I noticed that the merfolk looters, were coming out to often, and that 6 discarders were not as good as 7 discarders.

So the only way to have both 7 discarders and 3 think twices, was to add 1 more Desolate Lighthouse draw, discard specialty colorless land, for 4 of them,instead of 3 like before.

So I turned 1 Merfolk looter into 1 more Think Twice, for 3 of them, instead of 2 of them like before.

Then I turned 1 mountain, leaving 3 behind, into 1 more Desolate Lighthouse, for 4 of them now, instead of 3 of them like before.

Also edited, updated the Deck Breakdown, in the Deck Description.

Changed the Sideboard Out Slot List.

Also: Should it be 4 mountains 1 Ghost Quarter? Or should it be the 3 mountains, 2 Ghost Quarters, the way it is now?

Ok I finally decided whether to run 3 mountains, and 2 Ghost quarters, or 4 mountains 1 Ghost Quarter.

Thru Play testing, I have noticed that 7 islands, 4 mountains, 4 Desolate Lighthouse, 3 Hinterland Harbor, 1 Ghost Quarter, works the best.

So that's what I am going to go with.

The deck now only has to mulligan down to 6,7 cards, depending on whether go 1st or 2nd, and whether draw 1st turn, about 1 out of every 5,6, 5.5 games, or 1 time out of every 2.5, 3 game matches.

That's over the very long term. So in the short term, there are sometimes very bad opening hand draws,etc.

Also if the mana draw is semi bad after a ok, non mulligan opening hand, the draw cards can fix mana problems.

Also even if have to mulligan down to 6 cards, double mulligans are ultimately,extremely rare. And with all the card draw cards in the deck, 6 cards, instead of 7, is hardly a disadvantage.

And there is usually enough red mana for Increasing Vengeance, when it comes out.

The deck works good, and is somewhere between semi consistent at the very least to consistent.

The only times the deck has problems is if get mana flooded, or no mana, or draw problems, which don't happen hardly at all.

So most of the time the deck will do ok, good, great.

And the only decks the deck worries about is dedicated, pure blue, black, or blue, white control decks, and very super fast aggro decks, frites, wolf run ramp.

So that only about 3 or 4 decks, that the deck has a hard time dealing with.

But the sideboard is really good, and can help deal with problem decks for the deck.