Ok after reading a lot of forum comments on Temporal Mastery, and after viewing very similar decks, and after thinking about it hard,long, and after play testing, I have decided to go with 2 Mastery's, instead of 3.

The reason why, is that by going with 2 Masterys, instead of 3, I would have 8 miracle cards, instead of 9, which means I won't get miracle cards in opening hand as often.

And if I do get a Temporal Mastery card in my opening hand, and if don't draw 1 of 5 discarders, then I would have to pay 7 mana.

And Temporal Mastery is Exiled after casting, so can only copy it,(which is great), but can't cast it over and over and over.

I can still get 1.5 to 2.5 extra turns per game with 2 Temporal Mastery.

Altho I would rather run 3 Temporal Mastery and 9 miracle cards, 1 of 3 Temporal Masterys, is the ONLY thing I can cut, that wouldn't hurt, mess up the deck, that would get it down to 60 cards, 22 lands.

The deck still works awesome. And I only had to mulligan 13 times out of 100 sample hands, games, that I play tested.

Also the deck has hit a semi milestone, in 100 comments, 1000 views, and 5 +1's.

Thanks for all the comments, views, reading, viewing the deck, comments, Deck Breakdown, helping, +1's, and using the deck, and building very similar decks, based on this deck, and inspired by this deck.

Thanks

Mike.

Changes: I eliminated 1 2 of, by running 2 Lighthouse lands, and 2 Merfolk Looter's

So now deck is at 60 cards, 21 lands, a .35% land, mana ratio, 2, 4x, 4 of's, 2, 2x, 2 of's, Rest is a LOT of 3x, 3 of's, and a low 2.38 ave cmc.

The Mana Base is at 6 islands,3 mountains, 3 Sulfur Falls, 2 Desolate Lighthouse lands(card drawer,discarder), 2 Ghost Quarter(Answer to Cavern of Souls, mana fixing,etc), 2 Alchemist's Refuge

I can run 21 lands, because of of how low the ave cmc is for the deck, and because of the 2 Ghost Quarters to fix any mana problems, and because of how I only had to mulligan 13 times, out of the 100 sample hands, games, I play tested, at the new 60 cards, 21 lands.

The deck still works awesome, and even better, because of running the 3 Merfolk Looters, instead of 2 like before.And the deck still gets enough red and blue and green mana.And still have 5 draw,discarders split between 3 Merfolk looters and the Lighthouse lands.

And the new changes also makes it so that have 14 creatures instead of 13 like before.n The 14 creatures, give me a better creature base.

And I have play tested the deck about 500 to 1000 times, and the deck works awesome somewhere between some to almost most to almost all the time, most of the time.

Since all the new cards for the new AVR set have been revealed by Wotc, and have been put into tapped outs database of cards, for its deck builder thing, then I have put Crippling Chill, and Dual Casting, and Vanishment, and Devastation Tide, into the deck list main board, and side board, and have linked the new cards in the Deck Breakdown, in the Deck Description, and here in this comment.

So now everything is changed, updated, current. semi permanent.

So thanks for all the help, comments, +1's,play testing, using the deck,etc.

And please continue to comment, help, +1, play test, use the deck, build similar decks, etc, if want to.

Thanks, it is greatly appreciated

Thanks

Mike

I have noticed that in play testing that Alchemist Refuge is both not coming out often enough in conjunction with Hinterland harbor to be used often enough, and on the uncommon to rare times I do use Alchemist Refuge to Ponder and use other cards during opponents turn, that I am then spending 2 mana to pay into Alchemist Refuge, and then losing 1 mana, open land, to tap Alchemist Refuge for it's ability, and then 1 to 3 more mana to either ponder during opponents turn, or play some other non land card during opponents turn.

All added up that's at least 4 open lands, that I won't have access to during opponent's turn. So even if I pondered into either drawing and playing a miracle card, or setting up a miracle card for later, then I probably wouldn't even have the open mana to draw and play a miracle card, when ponder during foe's turn.

So because of all that I am going to cut the Alchemist Refuge and turn them into 1 more Desolate Lighthouse and 1 more Sulfur Falls.

And if Cavern of the souls becomes to much of a problem then could run 3 GHost Quarters and 2 Desolate Lighthouses

CHANGES;

DELVER is a a MUST 4 of. Deck works so much better now that I turned the 3 Vexing Devils into 4 Delvers

Altho Vexing Devil is ok, the foe doesn't have to take the 4 damage, and if foe does take the 4 damage, then vexing devil is in graveyard, instead of giving me a creature base for attacking and blocking.

And if Vexing Devil does come out, then Vexing Devil doesn't have any evasion, to get its damage thru, and iis either blocked, or removed.

and with 3 Devils, and 3 Delvers, they were fighting for Elbow room, and caused deck to be less consistent,fractured etc.

And a flipped Delver can be copied by Metamorph, and so Delver is better then Vexing Devil. Taking out the Vexing Devils freed up more card slots, that I was able to use to make everything else more consistent.

The reason why Thought Scour is in, is that When I have a bad Ponder, I can Scour the garbage into the graveyard, when I draw. And I can also mill my foe. And when I bounce a non land permanent, back to the top of foe's lbrary, I can then use thought scour to then mill the bounced cards to foe's graveyard. And it only cost 1 mana, and I can draw a card.

I updated the Deck Breakdown,and the sideboard out slot list.

I added 1 more temporal mastery back in. And added 1 more Desolate lighthouse as another discarder.

The deck now has no 2 of's, and has 3 4x 4 of's and the rest is 3x 3 of's.

So that helps the deck be more consistent.

I believe I may be the first to suggest Lunar Mystic for the deck. Unlike the Merfolk Looter is straight card advantage, and you can activate it on anyone's turn, and more than once.

In a game with more than 2 players it seems even better...

At the very least it is used in a different kind of way, and I'd recommend running a mix of the two.

Lunar Mystic, isn't really a good fit for the deck:

1. It cost 4 mana, and 2 blue, can be hard to cast in this mana base. And 4 mana is to much. I won't get it out until turns 4,5,6. Looter can come out sooner then that.
2. It doesn't discard miracle cards.
3. altho drawing multiple cards is nice, it would risk drawing miracle cards as the 2,3 card drawn, without a discard outlet, which means the miracle cards, could end up dead in hand
4. And if you only use to draw 1 card per turn, instead of being able to draw 1 to 3 cards per turn, then again 4 mana, and having it come out turns 4,5,6, and only drawing 1 card per turn, wouldn't be worth it.
5. Fitting it in, and running a mix of it with Crippling chils, and merfolk looter would be extremely hard, clunky, less consistent,etc:

B. I could go with 2 looters, and 2 Dual Castings,. But then I might not have enough Dual Casting to copy stuff, and not have enough Chills to tap down creatures.

C. I could go with 2 Dual Castings, and 2 Crippling Chills, but again same problems as above.

D. I could go with 2 Metamorphs, instead of 3, and 2 looters. Same problems.

E. 2 Metamorphs, and 2 Chills. Same problems.

F. 2 Dual Casting, 2 Metamorphs. Same Problem.

G. 3 Mana leaks, and 3 Snapcaster Mages, instead of 4 of each, but that would not be enough.

So no matter what I do, there will be problems fitting 2 Lunar Mystics, into the deck.

It's just not a good fit for the deck.

Now if they had made it 3 cmc, instead of 4 cmc, and a 1/2, and a discard outlet, on top of being able to draw a card every instant spell cast, then could probably have found a home in this deck.

Where is Vanishment? Is it supposed to replace Disperse? Did you take it out?

60 cards or bust!

But seriously. Drop 2.

Look at the deck. There's nothing to take out. What do you suggest cutting?

Crippling Chill. It's a card-draw, yeah, but it's pointless against swarming decks and the best creatures doing all the work in Standard currently have Hexproof anyways.

A deck sitting at 62 is just not healthy. Even 61 is a huge difference compared to 60.

Zandi a lot of people who know a lot more then you, who have already commented on the deck, logically disagree with you.

Also if your not going to be your usual know it all, don't listen, problem causing, cry wolfing, self, then it's ok for you to comment.(this is not open to you to comment about. If you do, it will not be ok for you to comment)

As mistory said, there is extremely little to almost no room. You said cuts it down. Then Mistory explained why it's at more then 60 cards. Then instead of logically explaining how it can be cut down to 60. You then change the topic, and restate that deck must be at 60 cards.

60 cards is USUALLY better, most to almost all the time. But unlike NO MATTER WHATTERS like you say, there ARE LIMITED EXCEPTIONS.

The purpose of no more then 60 cards, is CONSISTENCY. 60 cards is more consistent then more then 60 cards, IF, IF the 60 cards has 3,4 copies of cards in deck, and if the 60 cards has all the needed core cards, needed to make a deck work.

but if it's not possible to have 3,4 of cards, and have all the core cards to make a deck work, then, and only then is it ok to have more then 60 cards, in order to have all the core cards, and to increase consistency.

A 61,62,63 card deck that has 3,4 of each card, and all the core cards needed to make a deck work, is more consistent, then a 60 card deck, that runs a lot of 2,3 of each card, and that doesn't have the core cards.

If I were to make the deck 60 cards, the deck would not work as good, or maybe even not at all. The deck also has a lot of card draw.

A 61,62 card deck with lots of card draw, with 3,4 of each card, with all the core cards,etc, is better, and more consistent, then a 60 card deck, with less card draw, 2,3 of each card, and either doesn't have all the core cards, or not enough of the core cards.

There is a reason why the deck has a lot of comments, 1700 views, 7 +1's. There is a reason why Squire 1 was showing off the deck at the tapped out tourney. There is a reason why somewhere between some to a lot are building very similardecks.

Continued into next post, because not enough room.

Now that I have covered the 60 card. Enough with the 60 card thing. If want to suggest something to take out to make the deck 60 cards, then that's ok.

Just keep in mind that me and others have tried very hard to make the deck 60 cards, and that there is maybe only 1 card that could possibly be cut to bring the deck down to 61 cards.

This is not the place to have a 60 cards debate. if want to do that, then talk to Rhadamanthus, or myself, or others in the forums.

The deck is not pointless against swarming decks, and decks with Hexproofer's and other big nasty creatures.

The way the deck deals with horde, is by countering,bouncing captains, battlecryer's, enchantments, etc that give all the 1/1's, +1/+1. And then countering,bouncing hellrider, all during the 1st game.

During games 2,3, you side in 3 Devastation Tide And board wipe them over and over.

Against Nasty creatures, you use 1 of 3 Phyrexian Metamorphs, to copy nasty creature threats. Or you Act of treason, or traitorous blood steal the creature(sideboard).Or you Mana leak the creature. Or you tap the Creature. Or you either fly over the creature, or do 5 to 10 damage to foe to win the game.

If you take out 2 Crippling Chill card slots, the deck won't work. Those card slots are needed to run either Crippling Chills, or thought Scours, or Think Twices. And only having any 2 of the above named instant speed card drawers won't cut it, work. Without enough instant speed draw, the deck will not be able to use the miracle cards, and get out stuff like mana leak, disperse, merfolk looter, snapcaster, delver, metamorph, when you need those things.

Continued in another post.

@mikedh I think zandl meant that Crippling Chill was useless against swarms/hexproof, not the deck. But that is a valid point. Even so, instant-speed card-drawers are necessary here, and Crippling Chill is good just for the times it is useful.

Now I am going to break down each card and why it's needed at the number of that's in the deck.

Ponder:4 of this miracler enabler, is a must.

Temporal Mastery: this card won't work as a 2 of. At least 3 of is needed to get the extra turns. Extrta turns help with card draw, ramp, extra attack phases,etc.

Dual Casting: this is needed to copy Thunder Wrath, Temporal Mastery, Noxious Revival, Disperse, Ponder, Crippling Chill,etc. 3 is the right number, unless I cut 1 and 1 other card to add 2 swords of war and peace.

Disperse: This is needed to bounce permanents. If had room to run as a 4 of, I would. 2 would not be enough

Mana Leak: this is needed as a 4 of to counter creatures, and to protect my own stuff that is going on, from being stopped. Ghost Quarter deals with Cavern of Souls. only way that could take out a mana leak, would be to add 2 Swords of War and Peace.

Noxious Revival Re Uses EVERY card in Graveyard, and enables Thunderous Wrath to be cast over and over. 2 is not enough.

Thunderous Wrath Wins games in the deck. 2 is not enough.

3 instant speed card draw slots, whether Crippling Chill, Though Scour, Think twice is a must. 2 is not enough.

Merfolk looter: I tried 2 looters,instead of 3, and 2 doesn't work. Only with 3 looters, does enough creatures come out, and a draw discarder comes out enough. And a discarders are needed to discard miracles from opening hand.

Phyrexian Metamorph copies creature, artifact threats, and copies gets rid of legendary creature threats, and copies hexproofers, and copies Delvers, and Snapcaster Mages. 2 is not enough.

Snapcaster Mage: this is a 4 of. with only 3 Snapcasters, there are not enough Snapcasters to re use flashback everything.The only way that could take out a Snapcaster Mage would be to add 2 Swords of War and Peace

Delver of Secrets: This is a 4 of. If only had as a 3 of, then wouldn't be able to get out Delver enough to the control, and the miracles win games

So there is now way the deck could be brought down to 60 cards, without hurting the deck. It just barely,maybe,might, work at 61 cards, and just barely,maybe,might be able to take out 1 Dual Casting.

And the reason why it might be ok to either cut any 2 of 1 dual casting, 1 mana leak, 1 snapcaster, to add 2 Swords of War and Peaces, is because that might give the deck more power, while maybe not hurting the consistency to much in exchange for that power.

Cutting the deck down to 60 cards, would not add any power, and would probably hurt the consistency of the deck, because the deck needs 4 mana leaks, 2,3 Dual Castings, 4 Snapcaster Mages, etc, to make sure those cards come out enough, to make the deck work.

I agree completely. Combo-like decks like this one and solar flare are the exception to the 60-card rule.

Ok good point Mistory about what Zandi Meant. But you and me are still right in that those 3 card slots are still needed for either 3 Crippling Chill, 3 Thought Scour, 3 Think Twice.

The thing I have noticed, is that 3 Thought Scour is good vs Aggro, because Crippling Chill's tap ability, is not as good vs Aggro. It's draw is still good. But it's tapping a creature is not as good, vs aggro.

But against Mid range, and Frites, and Wolf Run Ramp, Werewolf, etc, Crippling Chill is better.

And against Delver, and Pure,Dedicated, Blue/White, Blue/Black hard core control, Think Twice is better.

So I think I will make up a Meta Switchboard. Where I switch back and forth between Thought Scour, Crippling Chill, Think Twice, in BETWEEN tourneys, depending on the meta.

But just because Crippling Chill, is less effective vs Aggro, is still not a good enough reason to take out 3 Card Draw Slots.

If I was only allowed to run no more then 60 cards, then the deck wouldn't work as good or ok, and might as well not even make the deck, if that was the case.

61 cards, is probably as tight as the deck can get. I just don't see any way to get the deck down to 60 cards, without making the deck less consistent, and without making the deck not work as good.

I am trying out 61, and 62 cards, and 2 and 3 dual castings, to see if 61 cards, and 2 dual castings will work.

Doing that has shown that so far that 2 dual castings does not come out enough to copy stuff, but everything else is only just barely a extremely little tiny bit more consistent.

It's really borderline between on which is better, 62 cards 3 dual castings, or 61 cards, 2 dual castings. Both are so close to being equally as good as the other, that I can see anybody going either way

So if some like 61 cards, 2 dual castings better then 62 cards, 3 dual castings, then I really don't see where it matters, as I think both ways are ok.

I just like, think 62 cards, 3 dual castings, is better until if playtesting shows if 2 dual castings, 61 cards, is better.

And I don't think that 60 cards will work for this deck, and don't see anything that could be cut down to 60 cards.

Hey mikedh1, I made a miracle deck, I would appreciate advice. Thanks! An Empire State of Mind

You don't have to be so damn defensive. All I did was suggest what card you should take out after you asked. So don't go around acting like a big shot just because you think having lots of +1s and Views = a good deck. If that were the case, my deck folders would be next the Pro Tour Top 8.

I take what you said to be very offensive and hurtful. But I will choose to be the much better man here and simply walk away.

And for your reading enjoyment:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/12478_61_Cards_Magic_Russian_Roulette.html

unsubscribes

When did I show off what deck at what tourney? You may have said already but sorry your posts are too long. I can't read them all.

Zandi, What I said was the truth. I and others have seen you behave like a know it all, when commenting on other peoples deck pages. You have behaved on other people deck pages, how you have here on my deck page.

You act like a know it all. And then don't listen to me and mistory and others. You don't use or listen to logic. When me and mistory used logic, you responded by further acting like a know it all, and restating what you said, and again didn't use or listen to logic.

That's how you have behaved in other forum threads, other's deck pages. And because of that, you have caused many problems. And when you cause 1 of those problems. You then go whining, and crying wolf to Yea Go, and to Squire 1.

Cableguy, Oh the Noises, and others have seen this pattern of behavior from you. And to see the latest proof, 1 only has to goto Yea Go's, or Squire 1's page, to see the last problem you caused when commenting on someone else's deck page.

So what I said was true. And because of that, that's why I said that you were ok,welcome to comment, if you did not behave that way on my deck page. I then said that none of this was open to talk about, meaning that your response is innappropiate. An appropiate response would have been to answer what mistory and myself said with logic. But instead you get defensive yourself, and accuse me, and mistory, who used the same logic, of being defensive, and accuse me of hurting you, and started whining and causing problems(again).

Also I said that this was not the place for a no more then 60 cards no matter what debate. So linking to a article about a 60 cards discussion here, is silly. Also instead of using articles, USE LOGIC, like me and Mistory and Rhadamanthus do.

Also I didnt just say the deck was good, just because of +1's. I in response to you seemingly implying the deck wasn't good, just because it had more then 60 cards, and was no good vs swarm decks, said that the deck had a lot of comments from some very good players, had a lot of views, +1's, and a lot of players being inspired by my deck to build very similar decks, and that Squire 1 had said that he was going to proxy,sleeve up my deck, and play it, show it off at the tapped out magic tourney in Florida.

All those things combined show that my deck is ok,decent,above average,good,etc, and not as bad as what you seemed to be implying through what you were saying.

Also I have no problems with constructive,logical, advice, comments, as mistory can tell you, I have gotten, received, listened to, taken, many constructive, logical, advice.

Perhaps if you were more constructive, logical, in how you come across in your comments, perhaps, me and others would take your advice, and not have problems with you.

Now if you drop,stop this crap, and constructively,logically comment.Ok. if not. Then don't comment anymore on my deck page.

Zandi, since you whined, complained, cried wolf to Squire 1. Don't talk to me, and don't post anymore on my wall, my deck page, etc, anywhere, and I won't talk to you.

This matter is closed, so DROP IT.

To others sorry for the disruption. The matter is now closed.

@Squire1: To Answer your question squire, you said earlier in comments on, about this deck, that you were going to proxy, sleeve up my deck, and play it, and show it off during the tapped out magic tourney in Florida.

Now if the deck wasn't decent, ok, above average, good, etc fun, I don't think you would have said that.

Also I am not saying that you officially endorse my deck, or that my deck, or the deck archetype is the best. I just don't think you would have said what you said, if my deck had been bad, not fun, etc.

If I have misunderstood what you said, or meant, then I am sorry

You are correct that I said i would do that. I did not unfortunately, due to being very busy. Not anything about the deck. i would like to actually see it run.

It was not an endorsement. it was a curiosity.