How does kitchen finks combo with brood moth

freeze92 it requires holding priority and manipulation of the stack:

1. Sac finks which will put moth and persist trigger on the stack
2. Order the persist trigger to happen first
3. Let persist trigger resolve which will bring back finks with -1/-1 counter
4. Hold priority while the moth trigger is on the stack and sac finks which will put another moth trigger on the stack (2 moth triggers on the stack)
5. Let moth trigger resolve which will bring back finks with flying counter
6. Now that the -1/-1 counter is gone, repeat step 1 through 5 again infinite times

EnralThanks, that’s an awesome combo. Great deck by the way. I was thinking of converting my Karador deck over to Tayam or Nethroi.

freeze92: Thanks. Funny enough this deck was literally converted from my old Karador deck. Karador always felt too clunky and requires either a sac/mill engine to get going but a reanimator commander that self mills with a built-in combo outlet is definitely a huge game changer.

EnralI have had all the same issues with karador as well. It’s my first commander and definitely then one I have the most money in but I just have not enjoyed playing it for the last year or so.

Can you help me make sure I understand the Leonin Relic-Warder loop completely? Also, what do you do after the loop?

Requirements: Sac Outlet (Phyrexian Altar), Leonin Relic-Warder in the Graveyard, Dance of the Dead in hand

Mana Pool:

Cast Dance of the Dead targeting Leo in grave

Current Stack

1. Dance of the Dead

Dance resolves, reviving Leo. Leo's ETB triggers, targeting Dance. Stack resolves, Dance is exiled, and Dance's LTB ability triggers. Maintaining priority, sac Leo to the Altar, gaining 1 mana. Leo's LTB ability triggers, returning an exiled artifact or enchantment.

Current Stack

1. From exile: Dance of the Dead LTB

---sacrifice Leo to Altar, gaining 1 mana of any color---

1. From exile: Dance of the Dead LTB
2. Leonin Relic-Warder LTB, targeting Dance of the Dead

Leo's LTB resolves, returning Dance to the field. Dance ETB triggers, reviving Leo.

If I did this right, at the end of the loop you should have gained one black mana, and now have infinite mana. However, you don't have a mana sink or creatures with counters for Tayam, Luminous Enigma to revive something like Altar of Dementia and mill everyone out. What happens now?

I am also pretty sure the Phyrexian Altar + Promise of Bunrei + Tayam, Luminous Enigma requires one floating mana to pay for the first Tayam ability.

Hissysnake8: You're right about leonin loop and I totally missed the counters required for activation for some reason. And some mana is definitely needed to start any of the infinite loop. Thanks for pointing that out!

Seems like an incredibly clean deck, although Primus does feel a little clunky.

Since this list does heavily revolve around the yard I would recommend some measures against graveyard hate- RiP and the like. I would also recommend Veil of Summer and Autumn's Veil as more pieces of interaction. I would say to trim your payload cards (ie:cards that are actively winning the game for you) down a little- maybe cut the less effcient ones, and slot in a few more copies of tutors and interaction.

Quite like the creative use of PolyK and Hermit though. +1.

toastySmorc Thanks for the feedback. You're totally right about woodfall primus being clunky...the only reason it's in there is because it's my pet card. But I will be replacing it with some yard protection as suggested. I do like the idea of veil and will try to trim my list down a little to include it. Cheers!

I like your take on Tayam. I never considered that Reyhan, Last of the Abzan is a one women combo basically. I'll definitely have to find space for her in my list.

One comment on Caller of the Claw. Part of the reason it is so strong with Tayam is because it has flash. You can win out of nowhere pretty easily.

Also, since you are already running the Kitchen Finks combo, you might consider Geralf's Messenger since it outright kills the table

Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor: Reyhan is definitely a one woman combo, I would even go as far as to say that she is probably an auto-include in most non-cEDH list. Geralf's Messenger has been in and out of my list and I'm honestly gonna test him out more and see if he makes the final cut. I get that Caller of the Claw's appeal is the flash but every time I had it in my hand I just felt like I could be drawing something that I can use immediately. Maybe I just need to test him out more.

I'm honestly also debating cutting Kitchen Finks out entirely since it basically does nothing other than another combo and I have other more high impact cards I could be running.

Hi! I'm new to the cEDH scene as a whole and basically in a transition powerlevel. I watch a lot of gameplay but never really get to experience playing a cEDH deck basically. You said that Karador is getting slower and not as great and I agree, but do you think that a Boonweaver Giant combo could still be viable with a different commander? Or at least, if you're not sure, do you have any tips on transitioning into cEDH? I know this isn't really part of the thread you're trying to recieve, but I figured this is the closest I'll get to someone who can help. I'll link my Karador list here. All that aside, thank you for reading my comment and I love your primer! This looks like a very good Tayam deck and I'll be sure to leave you that upvote :)

Dubstep4lyfe: Hi there, I just want to clarify that my Tayam deck is not cEDH at all and is at a 75% power level. The deck would look a lot different (with more emphasis on hatebears/stax and less goofy synergy stuff like Reyhan, Last of the Abzan) if I were to convert it to cEDH. I've dabbled in cEDH before but unfortunately not everyone in my playgroup is interested in it so it's something on my backburner for now. Anyways, you just have to change the deckbuilding mindset dramatically if you want to transition into cEDH as it is a totally different animal altogether.

Deckbuilding for cEDH is very different in that you want to focus on one compact/efficient win condition (with a second or even third compact win condition as plan B) and work your way up from interaction and protection of the win condition. Commander choice is very much dependent on how effective they can contribute to the win condition. For example, Kess, Dissident Mage is a great commander for the win condition Demonic Consultation/Tainted Pact + Thassa's Oracle/Laboratory Maniac as you can cast it twice with Kess's flashback to execute the combo in one turn. The color identity of the commander is also very important in which color combination with strong tutors, interaction, and protection are ideal. As for Karador, you want to check out cobblepott's decklist/primer for more information. Hope that helps!

Enral I think Eerie Ultimatum is too slow for a cEDH environment, and is honestly a win-more kind of card. If you have a big enough graveyard to use that, you're likely to be have already milled the cards you need and can work off Tayam to get them back. For 7 mana and that kind of crazy mana cost you better win the game on the spot.

Also, what's your logic behind lightning greaves? Is it just meant as a protective measure for Tayam?

toastySmorc: Yeah Eerie Ultimatum is definitely too slow for a cEDH environment, this is just a card I'm throwing in there for the funsies since this deck is meant for the 75% table. Lightning greaves is there to protect Tayam since he is the core of my strategy/combo.

Hi there! I'm in a process of making Tayam as well, although for a 1v1 format, so the list is different in some aspects, but overall very similar. I'd like to ask you how is Reyhan so good? I mean she should leave one counter behind when sacced (after removing two +1/+1 and a vigilance one), or does she actually leave all 3 +1/+1 after they are removed with Tayam?

Warxuaroz: Great observation, now that you've mentioned it I might have misinterpreted Reyhan's ability so she is just be a self-sustaining engine to self-mill instead of reanimating another creature. This means she is not as good as I initially thought she is in the deck and would have to think about possibly replacing it with something else.

I'm not saying it is so. I tried to make sense of it reading the Gatherer's rules of Reyhan. Read the first one -apparently after placing enough -1/-1 counters on her to make her die, she still leaves all three +1/+1 counters behind. Maybe when she dies with Tayam's ability the game actually uses her last state before death. I cant find the rule concerning this though.

Warxuaroz: Yeah, how useful Reyhan is hinges on if she leaves the +1/+1 counters behind. I'm going to ask that question on Rules Q&A. Thanks for bringing it up.

So looks like Reyhan doesn't work as I hoped to so she's pretty much a self mill engine at this point.

Hey this is a great primer! I've been building a Tayam deck myself though it seems we went pretty different directions with it. I had a few questions and curiosities and would love to get your thoughts / advice if you wouldn't mind.

1. How well do you feel that the mana dorks add to your ramp as opposed to say, adding more fetches and then recurring them later on?

2. I'm really interested in some of the higher CMC choices you made - I'm especially curious as to how you feel Meren performs in this deck and whether she's a "must include" for consistency. I''m also intrigued by your inclusion of Shalai, Voice of Plenty, would you think something like Keensight Mentor could also be a good form of getting counters?

3. My deck had utilized a lot of token generators like Bitterblossom and Pawn of Ulamog for sacrifice based value, yours seems to have a lot fewer and don't have any persist creatures - I'm guessing you still can get a lot of value. Do you think a bunch of token generators may not be really necessary in this sort of deck?

4. I'd also really like to know how you feel about proliferation cards - I was looking at cards like Pollenbright Druid and Huatli's Raptor to recur for proliferation along with Yawgmoth so I could generate enough counters for Tayam, do you think those are worth the slots, or did your playtesting find that a set up like this generated enough counters for you?

5. I've also been a bit curious to see if there's some -1/-1 Counter Synergy that could be feasibly worked with Tayam. The big reason for this was I figured you could always remove the counters from your own creatures for the obvious benefit as well as the value of Tayam's ability, and have a card like Hapatra and Nest of Scarabs for tokens or Obelisk Spider, Necroskitter and Crumbling Ashes and Channeler Initiate for other shenanigans to get a lot of value out of it. I'd love to hear what you have to think about that sort of idea. My main thought is that it seems like it'd be fun, but probably not very feasible / consistent.

Once again, really cool deck! Definitely deserving of a +1 and a great source of inspiration!

arrofil: Hey thanks for +1!

1. I do run a full suite of fetches and from testing I find that I would rather get a creature back. Dorks are great in that it is cheap to cast and adds another counter if Tayam is already in play.

2. I don't think Meren is a must include but I do like her in this shell as this deck operates on a more value/attrition toolbox kinda style. Meren really helps out especially if Tayam runs out of gas or is killed.

3. I don't think token generation is a bad direction to take to be honest. I'm even debating putting in Avenger of Zendikar for the crazy synergy with Tayam. I'd say if it works out for you go for it!

4. I haven't tried proliferate but I think it is a valid direction to take too. This commander is pretty complicated and difficult to brew tbh and I'm still having to constantly modify it as more playtesting is done.

5. That's a valid strategy too. Honestly, I would pick a direction and go with it, be it -1/-1 or +1/+1, or even a healthy mix. Whatever works for your meta. My pod is a little bit on the high power side which means I can't have any dead/do nothing cards or I'll fall way behind. CheerS!

Thanks so much for the response!

I'm definitely going to look into incorporating some mana dorks in place of some of the persist / undying creatures and see how that pans out.

Yes, it feels like a there's quite a lot that you can actually do with her, though at times I definitely feel like it's easy to stray from her strengths just because of all the little things she has ancillary synergies with. I'm trying to tighten up the deck and strategy so that kinda fights with my desire to do a strategy that might be a bit odd or out of left field.

Thanks again for the input!