[PRIMER] Torment From the God-Pharaoh
Standard
SCORE: 36 | 41 COMMENTS | 12204 VIEWS | IN 13 FOLDERS
Thank you for the suggestion, Toxic5pikes! My only complaint with Spell Swindle is that it is 5 mana, so even with the possible payback, it is often too slow compared to Disallow or Supreme Will. The only use I would have for it is against dinos, because RDWs are much too fast for this, and the payback is too little. Supreme Will can also be used to dig for a Torment of Hailfire or similar, and can also be flashed back. I think I will take out one Torment in the side and put in another Swindle against dinos.
October 5, 2017 8:06 a.m.
randomguyguy says... #3
This deck is well-built already, so I'm skipping straight to some suggestions--
In playtest, the weakest cards were those that required BB, especially Bontu's Last Reckoning. Lost Legacy is too slow for the mainboard in my opinion, it only really instant-wins vs the Approach of the Second Sun decks and is card disadvantage in many other matchups. You weren't doing enough damage for Torment to work as a finisher: It's weaker than Bolas at x>5 (CMC>7) and uncastable at x<5. I therefore recommend you change your double-color colors from UB with red splash to UR with black splash. Cut lost legacy for 1-2 lands to shore up your double-colors (preferably duals like the cycling ETB tapped ones) and to ensure mana consistancy for your Pull from Tomorrows, and replace Bontu's Last Reckoning with a combination of Sweltering Sands and Hour of Devastation (all strict upgrades IMO). The big loss here is Vraska's Contempt, to which there is no real comparable substitution for without double-black - you still need some way to deal with walkers.
For the sideboard, I'd cut the ferociodons, spell pierces, and BB cards, and put in an extra copy of each of your wraths and a number of (negate + duress) cards equal to the number of removal spells you have that are dead in control matchups.
Overall, a very solid deck!
October 8, 2017 7:20 a.m.
Thank you for the feedback, randomguyguy! Lost Legacy will be put in the sideboard, because it really is a good card against most decks in the format. I can kill Approach decks with it, and I can also cast it a turn before a Hazoret, and that's a huge deal against RDW. It's also great to completely remove Carnage Tyrant before it ever ETB. I will look into getting some Hour of Devastations, I kinda forgot about that card tbh. I will likely cut Bontu's Reckoning for them and/or Sweltering Suns. Should I therefore include Chandra?
October 9, 2017 8:12 a.m.
taiga277677 says... #5
I would say cut down the Torrential Gearhulks to 2 of, 4 is a bit much as drawing 2+ early is dead draws. Control decks also generally want 25-26 lands. I've enjoyed using torment, but it often take 10+ mana to do good with it, so i prefer Cut/ribbons (ribbons makes for a surprise ender as it gets lost in the grave). Finally, Glimmer of Genius is 1 of the best draw spells atm.
October 9, 2017 3:49 p.m.
randomguyguy says... #6
Last thing is to cut down on the double-color-costs. I don't think you can reasonably hit Vraska's Contempt on 4, Sweltering Suns on 3, and Disallow on 3, or even get all six colors (RRUUBB) by five mana consistantly, especially with as few duals and lands as you're playing.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
This article recommends 17-18 sources of each color to cast double color cards on curve on turn 4, and 18-19 to cast double color cards on curve on turn 3.
October 9, 2017 6:09 p.m.
Thank you taiga277677! The gearhulks are an absolute must-have. They are huge bodies, and flashing back a Glimmer or Contempt is often game-changing. I have included both Cut/Ribbons and the Glimmers, so thank you! Also, thank you randomguyguy (again :D)! I have completely revamped my mana base, and it is a lot more consistent now.
October 11, 2017 11:04 a.m.
imo some cheap spells that make treasure for you would be pretty helpful
November 17, 2017 12:44 p.m.
Thank you for the input, dotytron. What spells would you suggest, and what would you replace?
November 20, 2017 7:54 a.m.
Deathgorge Scavenger i would sb and Naga Vitalist i would drop and add in two Sailor of Means if you need those slots to be creatures and Depths of Desire or Pirate's Prize for more spells
November 21, 2017 1:30 p.m.
KingkillerKvothe says... #11
Awesome list! I'm thinking of building something similar as it throws together basically all the best bomb cards in standard that I own. One thing I'm not sold on however is Attune with Aether. Do you feel you have enough green mana sources to reliably play it? I feel like Spirebluff Canal would be better suited than Rootbound Crag and Sheltered Thicket. I also might consider cutting a couple of your higher end cards for Fatal Push. Thoughts?
November 24, 2017 1:57 p.m.
Thank you, KingkillerKvothe! I'm glad you like the list. Now, Attune with Aether is a great card for me, because it allows the colorfixing I need, running a mana-intensive deck like this. Plus, the 2 energy can fuel my Aether Hubs or a Harnessed Lightning. I understand the hesitation, but it has really been useful for me, and I can reliably cast it. Now, I did originally have Spirebluff Canal, but I decided that the checklands are better in the long term game, which is where I like to take this deck. Plus, the dual lands can be cycled out as needed as well. As for Fatal Push, it comes down to personal preference and availability. Hope this helped, and good luck with your deck!
November 25, 2017 12:30 p.m.
This seems positively bizarre, do you ever run into mana problems? I'm running a deck with similar win cons, but mine is a primary black deck with blue and then two red cards in the main and one in the side.
How does the attune package and vraska tend to work or for you? Also you have red removal when black removal can often do a better job, any reason?
December 3, 2017 9:59 p.m.
Thank you for taking the time to comment, Dickified! In testing, this deck is actually pretty consistent! The Attune with Aether is a great card at any point in the game, as I can fetch whatever land I needed and get two more energy for 1 mana, in turn keeping my Aether Hubs up and running or fueling a huge Harnessed Lightning. Vraska is an amazing card as well, as her abilities are so versatile in this deck. Her tokens are great blockers, and can sneak in for a few extra damage later on. Being able to remove enchantments is huge as well, especially because we aren't running white. Finally, her ultimate will win the game, and can undo a game's worth of lifegain for my opponent. Because this is a very lategame deck, this is vital against decks like Vampires and even Approach. Tl;dr she is an absolute must in this deck. As to the removal, black is often much more efficient, but the only really good black removal spells are Fatal Push and Vraska's Contempt. I have the Contempts in here, and while Push is a great card, I can't use it against most dinos or any of the gearhulks, while Abrade is very versitale and Harnessed Lightning can hit anything with enough energy. I hope this helped!
December 4, 2017 7:53 a.m.
jon.grimes893 says... #16
If you were siding in Crushing Canopy primarily against Glorybringer, you might as well replace it with Chandra's Defeat. It also provides you a super easy, rewarding answer for Chandra as well.
January 11, 2018 9:03 a.m.
Thank you for the suggestion, jon.grimes893! I have actually moved in favor of Harnessed Lightning and Vraska's Contempt for my main removal spells, but thanks anyway! The thing I don't like about Chandra's Defeat is that while it is cheap, it also is useless against non-red creatures.
January 19, 2018 7:19 a.m.
I would drop Canyon Slough to two, make Dragonskull Summit a four of, and add two more Evolving Wilds. I think that will make your mana work a bit better.
I would suggest 1 or 2 Nezahal, Primal Tide in the Sideboard, for a Control mirror match.
Other than that, things look really good.
Tag me in these comments if you do a match report. I'm interested to see how this fares in tournament play.
January 24, 2018 10:13 a.m.
Wanted to test against my partner's deck, because I thought it might do well against Control.
It did very well.
I'm not sure how many people will be playing Dinos this season, but I know it was popular at prerelease.
Here's the deck: Stompy Whompy Dinos
January 24, 2018 11:16 a.m.
I just noticed - this is not Grixis.
It's four coloured.
I don't think that is advisable, at the moment.
Would suggest that you swap Vraska, Relic Seeker for Angrath, the Flame-Chained.
If you don't want to do that I would suggest that you at least remove a Mountain for a Forest.
January 24, 2018 11:40 a.m.
Thank you for your time, Argy! I really appreciate the feedback. The reason I don't have any basic Forests is because there is only the one need for it - Vraska. She is so fun to play, and very useful in this deck. As mentioned in the description, all three of her abilities are useful for me in the deck. However, and I have not done this yet, I was thinking about moving Bolas and Vraska in the sideboard and putting Mastermind's Acquisition in their place. The tutor or wish effect means that I could have a sideboard of meta-specific answers, which I could grab as needed. That said, I am somewhat new to the truly competitive scene, and am not sure how well that would work in practice.
I do plan to find a place for the blue dino somewhere, but I'm not sure where yet. As for Angrath, I just don't like him. I can see him being useful against control, but he seems to lack a place alongside Bolas, or even Chandra.
TL;DR - I know Grixis would be a better choice for color, but I can't find a suitable replacement for Vraska. If you have any ideas, please let me know. So far, I have beaten Ramunap Red (Pre-banning), Naya Dinos, and Jeskai Control. I have lost to Orzhov tokens, Gruul Pummeler (due to a misplay by me), and go roughly 50/50 against Gruul Dinos. Again, many thanks for your time!
January 24, 2018 12:26 p.m.
Probably better to post my comments on you deck here :P.
I think your list is a bit too heavy on lategame at the moment (I would probably cut Vraska and both Chandrass). Control does not need that many finishers, and the Gearhulks and Scarab Gods are probably more efficient in ending the game after you have stabilised. Bolas has been a good finisher for me in previous months, so I like the inclusion.
Your landbase is a bit wacky. No Spirebluff Canals? I would get rid of the Evolving Wilds. I think it is a mistake to not run 4x Glimmer. Only 2x Opt? The amount of filtering/draw seems a bit off to me. I would also run a full playset of Harnessed Lightning (especially since your run 4x Aether Hub). -1 Essence Scatter maybe? In which matchups do you side in Sentinel Totems and Lost Legacy?
I think the deck as it is now is a bit inconsistent (not enough filtering/draw) and would be pushed over by aggression quite easily.
January 26, 2018 10:25 a.m.
Thank you for your feedback, VeersMTG!
The Chandras do not necessarily have to survive to the lategame, as often simply playing her will draw attention to her and not to myself. I often play her T4 if possible, and her second +1 can let me still cast an Abrade or Harnessed Lightning that same turn. Of course, if she does survive, the game generally ends very quickly.
Vraska is a great card, so much so I still splash green for her. She can create chump blockers, she can kill things outright (no damage, no conditions), and should she survive to her ultimate, that ends the game too. Worst case scenario, she buys me a turn or two and gets me a body or a mana.
I do mean to purchase two Spirebluff Canals, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. The Evolving Wilds are not only classic mana fixers, but as I am effectively running three colors, they are far superior to the tapped dual lands. An interesting note as well is that they are also my only reliable way to trigger revolt for Fatal Push.
Speaking of Fatal Push, that is the reason why I only have 3 Harnessed Lightning. Push is just better, most of the time. With cards like Blossoming Defense and Bristling Hydra, I often won't have a target. If the creature is an illegal target by the time Lightning resolves, I don't get any energy.
Glimmer of Genius is an amazing draw spell, but it is still 4 mana to cast. I haven't had a need for more than 2 of them, especially with Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin and the ability to flashback the Glimmers with my Gearhulks. The Opts were put in place after the banning of Attune with Aether, and could see removal or modification. Frankly, I often swap them for Magma Sprays against aggro or other creature-intensive matchups.
Sentinel Totem goes in against reanimator and some control matchups. It does hurt me as well, but is currently my best way to hate a graveyard, as it is easy to cast. Until they reprint Tormod's Crypt or Bojuka Bog, I'll have to make do. Lost Legacy goes in against Approach decks or other control decks. Hitting The Scarab God or Hostage Taker can win me games, by keeping them from doing the same. I'll also rarely use it against Blossoming Defense or the Hydra.
Thank you again for your time, and please let me know if you have any more questions!
January 26, 2018 noon
Hi there,
I've been following this deck for a while because I love grixis. I was wondering how easy you find the splashing green and if you ever struggle with your mana.
There are lots of comments here about possible mana inconcistencies but you never mention any
January 27, 2018 3:39 a.m.
Well thank you, Dickified! Because I only have one need for green here, the splash is pretty easy. I don't actually have any problems with my mana, surprisingly. I did have Attune with Aether in here before the ban, but even without it I can usually hit my mana when I need it.
Toxic5pikes says... #1
I'd put about 3 Spell Swindle in the main board. Even if you only counter a 3 cost spell that's still more mana to play Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh faster or 3 more X in Torment of Hailfire. Then you cast it again with Torrential Gearhulk. I'd probably swap 1 Opt and 2 Supreme Will for them.
October 4, 2017 4:57 p.m.