Toxic Relationship: Hapatra EDH [PRIMER]

Commander / EDH Daedalus19876

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Casey4321 says... #1

Alright if you're going to do this we're doing this together.

Crumbling Ashes

Blowfly Infestation

Midnight Banshee

Black Sun's Zenith

Corrosive Mentor

April 6, 2017 1:07 p.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #2

Casey4321: I have to run to class but those are all great and I will add them. Check out what I found on gatherer as well.

The current commander will go in the 99 for obvious reasons.

April 6, 2017 1:22 p.m.

Iron_Cube says... #3

You could add anything with infect, but if you don't want to, at least Inkmoth Nexus would be great. Maybe Glistening Oil and Necropede could fit.

You should develop your mana base with dual lands including Hissing Quagmire and cycling lands, Barren Moor, Tranquil Thicket, Ash Barrens to add Archfiend of Ifnir.

April 7, 2017 12:54 p.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #4

Iron_Cube: Thanks for the comment! Obviously the mana base hasn't been filled in, haha.

Is there anything you'd cut from the list?

April 7, 2017 1:02 p.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #5

n0bunga: I caught that too! She creates infinite ETBs and LTBs with Blowfly Infestation :) That's why Blood Artist and Zulaport Cutthroat and Fecundity are in the list (beyond being generally good cards).

Also, what would you cut?

April 7, 2017 4:14 p.m. Edited.

Eiti3 says... #6

I think a Vigor would do wonders here. As for cutting, I honestly wouldn't know where to start. I don't see much ramp, so probably starting with the higher cost cards?

As for names, I like Toxic Relationship. I'm only good at themes. If you have a theme in mind, I got you.

April 7, 2017 5:17 p.m.

Casey4321 says... #7

How about Negative Nancy cause she distributes -1 -1 counters...Eh eh?

April 7, 2017 5:32 p.m.

Lilbrudder says... #8

Culling the Weak is so perfect here. Sure Ill play 5 drops on turn 2 like Sidisi, Undead Vizier. I got suggestions for days and I am drunk asf right now

April 7, 2017 8:10 p.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #9

Lilbrudder: Hit me with your suggestions :)

I love Culling the Weak - one of the most under-appreciated mana rituals in the game.

April 7, 2017 8:32 p.m.

Lilbrudder says... #10

Phyrexian Obliterator+It That Betrays. Buried Alive+Victimize as the enabler 1. Summoner's Egg+Eldritch Evolution as enabler 2. Mix with some Glissa, the Traitor for lols. Put Lure on obliterator for a happy playgroup. Outside these dickbag interactions they are just solid ways to cheat fatties into play before people are ready to deal with them.

Title wise it should reflect what a toxic relationship is about or who this mean black widow harlot is. Its just like a woman to get you into a fight with an obliterator

April 7, 2017 8:59 p.m. Edited.

Lilbrudder says... #11

Apprentice Necromancer and Doomed Necromancer to spice things up. Double value or even more out there Champion of Stray Souls and Rescue from the Underworld.

April 7, 2017 9:16 p.m. Edited.

Daedalus19876 says... #12

Lilbrudder: Those are tasty interactions, but I think they'd be more appropriate for a proper reanimation deck? This deck is more stax and tokens (which is why I'm liking it - feels much more unusual for a Golgari deck).

April 7, 2017 10 p.m.

Lilbrudder says... #13

But staxy reanimator tho...That just sounds horrifying to play against. Oopz turn 1 It that betrays...Sorry about that void winnower lol

Hey if its not your bag I totally get it. I like the deck the way it is :-) Those win conditiona are really only fun once tbh. Then people just stop wanting to play against the deck. "I actually like to play magic...muh spirit of the format..." and all that nonsense lol

April 7, 2017 10:14 p.m.

Lilbrudder says... #14

April 7, 2017 10:22 p.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #15

Lilbrudder: In playtesting, I just dropped T2 Hapatra, T3 get a snake and Culling the Weak into Midnight Banshee. I think I'm in love.

April 7, 2017 10:26 p.m.

Iron_Cube says... #16

I don't really know what to cut... But I forgot Liliana, Death Wielder and maybe Liliana's Influence from the new planeswalker deck. But due to their high mana cost, I'm not sure if it's worth it. Liliana's +2 ends up with 7 loyalty and should be hard to kill. Another +2 and one proliferate, you can -10 to victory. -3 can also kill almost anything at this point.

April 7, 2017 10:51 p.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #17

Iron_Cube: I'm tempted to include Liliana's Influence, but Liliana, Death Wielder costs about three mana too much for me to play her.

For now, though, I think I'm going to exclude all cards from Amonkhet (other than the commander obviously) and decide what fits later, once the full block is spoiled.

April 8, 2017 11:18 a.m.

Spoosky says... #18

Buen deck estimado, podras tratar de aadirle un Avenger of Zendikar, te da tokens y tienes un Craterhoof Behemoth en main, lo otro es agregarle algunas otras tierras que te ayuden al fix, como fetchlands, shocklands, ese estilo, por ltimo estimado un Volrath's Stronghold, uff, cudate.

April 8, 2017 2:09 p.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #19

Spoosky: Quiero anadir un Avenger of Zendikar, pero no se que debo acortar...y tambien cuesta tanto mana...

Yo se que mis tierras no son completamente optimizadas, pero no pienso que es tan importante en un deck de solo dos colores. Todavia debo anadir un Phyrexian Tower...

Gracias por tu comentario! (Y siento que mi espanol es muy oxidado...)

April 8, 2017 2:16 p.m. Edited.

Shamen3mill says... #20

Poor Flourishing Defenses, got power creeped, but hey, at least it'd add more redundancy to the combos. (Only difference is when someone else decides to cast black sun's zenith on you, you still get the elves off of Defenses, and not out of Scarabs.

April 8, 2017 2:24 p.m.

xXvampireXx says... #21

sorry to burst your bubble, but she does not go infinite with blowfly infestation, the reason is because of the order of triggers.

so you have 2 1/1's, then put a -1/-1 counter one of them, you get the trigger to create the 1/1 on the stack, but before it can resolve the 1/1 that has the -1/-1 counter dies and makes a blowfly infestation trigger, putting a -1/-1 counter on the last remaining 1/1, making a trigger to create another 1/1, but before it can resolve, the 1/1 dies making a blowfly infestation trigger with no legal targets except Hepatra.

so you can see because of the -1/-1 counter killing it before it makes a new 1/1 this wont work.

April 8, 2017 3:32 p.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #22

xXvampireXx: Your comment worried me, so I checked with a judge.

Conclusion: The loop does work as long as you control two snakes at the beginning.

Here is what they said directly:

Me: Does Hapetra, Vizier of Poisons go infinite with Blowfly Infestation? Relevant text on Hapetra: "Whenever you put one or more -1/-1 counters on a creature, create a 1/1 green Snake creature token with deathtouch." Relevant text on Blowfly Infestation: "Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play, if it had a -1/-1 counter on it, put a -1/-1 counter on target creature." Can I achieve infinite death triggers using this - is there any way to stack the triggers such that I put the -1/-1 counters on the newly-generated snakes?

Judge: Nope. You put a counter on a creature to kill it. It dies as a SBA, then you put both triggers (make a snake; put a -1 counter on something) on the stack at the same time (in either order). At that point, the new Snake isn't in play yet to be targeted.

Me: If I already have a snake in play, can I target that one (with the snake-creating ability resolving first) and manage a loop?

Judge: Yeah, having another snake already in play works. Kill snake 1 -> make snake 3, then target snake 2 -> snake 2 dies -> make snake 4, then target snake 3...(Of course, the "target snake X" is technically "resolve the ability targeting snake X".)

Me: Just so I can cite this to someone, is there a comp rule citation that shows both Blowfly and Hapatra's abilities go on the stack simultaneously?

Judge: 603.3b: If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.

Me: So just to make sure I have this straight, Putting the counter on the snake leads to it dying as a SBA, so the "placement of the counter" and "creature dies with a counter" abilities trigger simultaneously and I get to choose the order?

Judge: They don't trigger simultaneously. Hapetra triggers directly from the counter being placed on it. We put that trigger in a bucket to deal with later. Your snake dies, which causes Infestation to trigger, and we put that trigger in the same bucket. Then we recheck SBAs and see that there's nothing left to deal with. So now we dump out that bucket and figure out how to stack up the triggers that were in it.

Me: And I choose the "order of the bucket" at that point, once there's nothing left to deal with?

Judge: Bingo.

April 8, 2017 4:26 p.m. Edited.

xXvampireXx says... #23

ah ok, that makes this deck seem a ton better with a turn 3 infinite combo lol

April 8, 2017 8:12 p.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #24

Shamen3mill: I'm hoping that Nest of Scarabs gives enough redundancy :) but if it doesn't I'll find a slot for Flourishing Defenses as well.

xXvampireXx: Well I mean it already had ONE (Quillspike+Devoted Druid gives infinite power, and when combined with Hapatra it gives infinite snakes) but now it has TWO :D

April 8, 2017 8:15 p.m.

Goronagar says... #25

Yeah ... in my opinion, Flourishing Defenses is too expensive, Nest of Scarabs should be enough.

What's about Fume Spitter? Pretty nice control part, works with sacrifice engines and the commmander.

I'm working on a golgari deck without poision counters Golgari Snake Army. The focus is on buffing the snake army, using combos is a secondary option.

April 9, 2017 7:53 a.m.

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