FLATSO99: Thanks!! I'm excited to see how far this deck will go :)

lifemtg: Generally, foils hold their price better than non-foil versions of cards. With that being said, it's only "worth" all-foiling a deck if you enjoy the challenge and the bling ;) I chose to all-foil this deck because it was a relatively inexpensive project, and I've found it worthwhile!

Dysnomia1: Yeah, I ran it for a while, it just... wasn't worth it, if I didn't have good enough ways to cheat it out.

Nic44: Thanks! I've... considered it. The deck somewhat needs a rebuild, but OptimalGreen is correct: they get wiped out by any global counter placement effects. With that being said, this deck is ready for a rebuild, and the rebuild WILL include more of those dorks to get better value out of Gaea's Cradle (not least since I run far less global -1 counter effects than before).

Are you thinking an almost complete overhaul or just replacing like around 10 cards? :v

OptimalGreen: There are several other creatures with one toughness, though - so it is kinda hard for me to buy into that, but let's say that I do...wouldn't it still be better to play ramp like Nature's Lore , Sakura-Tribe Elder , Wood Elves etc than artifact ramp that poorly synergizes with Collector Ouphe and Bane of Progress , not to mention being much easier dealt with being artifacts? My two cents would be to remove much of the global -1/-1 counter stuff, play every one-drop mana dork available (besides perhaps Boreal Druid ) and keep the artifact hate as is - even add more of it - perhaps Root Maze and Null Rod . My argument against my own "two cents" would be that such a change could take away from the theme and overall spirit of what the deck is trying to accomplish. Maybe it is right to leave it as it is but to exchange the artifact mana with cards that ramp lands like the ones mentioned above - that way you don't blow up your own "progress" with Bane of Progress . What I have been thinking about is at least Arbor Elf and Voyaging Satyr , the latter of which can even untap Gaea's Cradle for a ridiculous mana turn. They both can untap lands enchanted by Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl , but, again, those are also lunch for our favorite progress eating dweeb Bane of Progress .

I’ll probably be changing about 15-20 cards when all is said and done. We’ll see, I just haven’t had the chance to modify when I’ve been moving etc.

Nic44 Name one highly tuned G/X or even mono-green list that doesn't run artifact ramp and just runs dorks though. Also no Nature's Lore and Wood Elves aren't as good as Mana Crypt are you high? Plenty of top tier decks run Null Rod with rocks and Chrome Mox in Hapatra is great because you can get her out turn 1. Even Yisan runs rocks.

Also I think getting away from the main strategy of this deck which is -1/-1 counters to facilitate mana dorks is in general a bad idea. The deck runs on -1/-1 counters that's it's bread and butter. Cut it out and the deck is an expensive paper weight.

OptimalGreen: Agreed, but there definitely is an argument to be made for running a few more dorks (Deep Shadow, Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Mystic): even if you only get to use them once or twice, they're still not bad on the whole.

I can agree to more dorks. I think in this deck they'd have served their purpose before you can play BSZ or Soul Snuffers and converting them to snakes/insects isn't a huge loss and it's value if you get a snake and insect out of each of them.

Also I think Amber could be safely cut for one of the dork if you were gonna cut any rocks. Sol Ring/Crypt are way more powerful than them, T1 Chrome Mox is great, and Talismans/Signets are EDH staples. Mox Amber is cool in lower cmc commanders but if somethings gotta go I'd say it's the easiest pick. Especially since there are five legendaries in this deck.

OptimalGreen: Amber's been pretty good here; it's been useful for still having a play on T2 after I cast my commander. I'm going to be tinkering with the deck's composition soon, stay tuned.

OptimalGreen If you actually read what I wrote, I said nothing of the no-brainer rocks like Crypt and Ring...but the TWO mana rocks like Fellwar Stone , Golgari Signet , Talisman of Resilience etc. Also, I can name MANY top tier decks that run a shitload of mana dorks, in fact almost every one with the color green max out on them. My argument remains: land ramp in the form of two mana spells like Nature's Lore and Three Visits are better than the TWO (2) mana rocks when one has access to green.To me, THAT is the no-brainer.

...and yes, I am high.

OptimalGreen: Oh...just for the sake of the hopefully good natured debate at hand, there in fact IS a "top tier" deck that uses all the one-drop mana dorks available to its color identity and uses ZERO rocks, not even Sol Ring or Mana Crypt ...and is name Animar, Soul of Elements . So there...

But also understand that I am not reccomending the Animar plan for this deck, just a slight tweak in the ramp suite.

Nic44: Animar is not a top-tier deck, and most of the good variants still run Crypt and Ring.

Lmao Harvest Animar runs Crypt, Diamond, Petal, and Chrome Mox. Also imagine spending $70 on a mediocre ramp spell instead of running a rock. Especially when Rampant Growth is objectively better.

Oh wait Rampant Growth isn't objectively better because Three Visits finds a forest but I'm only finding the card in 3c+ decks because they can search for multiple dual lands and shocks. Looks dumb in 2c though especially at $80 since the recent buyout.

Sorry for triple posting but after looking around I'd say for land ramp instead of an $80 common from Portals there's also Burgeoning and Exploration which are much cheaper and repeatable. Also I've seen a lot of lists run Regrowth with Eternal Witness so have you ever considered putting it in the mainboard?

OptimalGreen Uhhh...you may want to carefully read those cards. Nature's Lore and Three Visits are miles better than lousy Rampant Growth , and not for the reason you stated (that it gets a Forest ). Rampant Growth gets a basic land into play TAPPED - Nature's Lore and Three Visits get a Forest into play UNTAPPED, and both are commonly played EDH ramp spells.

Also, I didn't mention a peep about Chrome Mox , Mox Diamond etc so including those in your rebuttal is superfluous. Those types of ramp artifacts produce colored mana before turn 2 so of course they are in. I cannot recall playing against a tuned Animar, Soul of Elements deck with the rocks that produce colorless mana because they are actually not good in competitive Animar. This is because of the need to produce colored mana for the necessary turn 2 Animar.

Finally, we all know that artifact destruction and artifact hate is ever-abundant in Edh, whether competitive or casual. Having diversity in one's ramp suite is a good thing, and having the specific two 2-mana sorceries mentioned above is a great way to apply that concept.

Oh, additionally... the whole "top tier" label in Edh is quite subjective - this is why I placed that dubious monicker in quotation marks in my previous post.

Have you ever considered Necrotic Ooze as a back up for some combo pieces in case they get disrupted?

Yeah nah some Commanders are objectively better than others. How much better is subjective but to say that some aren't inherently better because of their ability is incredibly foolish.

OptimalGreen You are quite skilled at presenting me with making arguments that I never even remotely made and then attempting to destroy that argument. It's called Straw Man fallacy, look it up.

Never did I make such a claim as you expressed. Obviously a five color deck is going to be often times better than a mono colored deck. Often times when colors are equal in number, it is the specific color combination that gives an advantage. Same goes with commanders and their respective abilities. BUT...what is subjective is what other decks are facing a specific deck, the skill of the pilot and the familiarity with a specific Commander or even a specific color combination. What is "incredibly foolish" from a MtG EDH point is the inability to grasp this, and there is not a competitive EDH player worth their salt who would gainsay it. Anyway, I am done debating with children for now and I am not going to contiunue to de-rail this, so go ahead and Straw Man again if you so please. Now, back to the original subject...

Have you considered Setessan Tactics or Predatory Rampage ? The latter can be quite devastating under certain board states.

Nic44 and OptimalGreen: Please take this elsewhere rather than spamming my deckpage? >.< I've considered Setessan Tactics before, mostly for the surprise value, but it's never REALLY found a home. Predatory Rampage isn't something I've considered before, I'll think on it. And I will be adding more dorks here eventually, though the mana rocks are most definitely not leaving.

Macnzich: I ran NOoze for a while, but my primary combos aren't 100% activated abilities -- it was more efficient to just reanimate the stuff I needed.

Thoughts on Son of Yawgmoth? I feel like him being 7cmc or 4cmc and any combination of black mana/life might make him a bit harder to run in this deck. Also the deck being 40% black cards might make it less worth it to run but it'd be cool to have him and Yawgmoth in the same deck although I'm a function > flavor kind of person.

Hello, great primer! What do you think of Yawgmoth's Will in the deck?

Recently I was talking with someone and they said that there should be around 20 cards relevant to a commanders ability and I was wondering what you think of that since you're a bit under that number with cards that produce/are relevant to -1/-1 counters.

OptimalGreen: I'm not a huge fan of K'rrik TBH, I think he's overhyped. Especially here, where I can't abuse him well. He's more tempting in my actual Yawgmoth deck, but even there the testing didn't... really show him to be very good there :(

On the subject of having 20 cards that interact with your commander, I think that's pretty good advice overall (in a commander-centric deck).

I only have 14 cards that interact directly with -1/-1 counters, by my count. BUT remember that 1) some of my things interact with snake tokens, which she inherently makes, rather than the counters themselves, and 2) I'm running at least eight tutors that almost always get one of those 14 cards (particularly Yawgmoth).

The math gets more complicated when tutors are involved! :)

Nuked: I'm ambivalent on it here? It's great in my Yawgmoth deck though! I don't have the low CMC and mana rituals I'd need to REALLY go off with it in this list, TBH. If I'm just playing it for generalized recursion, I'd rather go deeper into reanimation (since I usually want to just grab creatures back).