Yeah I had already used my golgari charm to kill 10 1/1 tokens he had a few turns before he played it =(

If you play Devil's Play for free how much damage does it do?

X counts as zero in these scenarios for converted mana cost right?

X would count for zero if it is played for free. But Epic Experiment states you MAY cast it for free. If your opponent has enough untapped lands and choose to pay the mana for the card:Devil's Play, it will be at full power. And they still get the Increasing Vengeance for free.

Maybe I am wrong with my interpretation, but the scenario that Dusty8807 described sounded like his opponent had the lands to tap to deal the damage after the Epic Experiment was cast.

Hopefully as Epic Experiment decks become more common, we will see rulings on this card that will settle all questions.

Although Rancor is the go-to creature buff for green, in a +1/+1 counter deck, I would wonder if Ring of Kalonia might be a better fit?

Just like Rancor , it would give trample, and no go to the grave if the creature dies.

In 2 turns, it would give just as much + to power... but with Corpsejack Menace out, each turn it would get +2 power... the same as the total that Rancor gives.... plus unlike Rancor it gives Toughness (not usually important in aggro, I know)

It's really a toss-up in my opinion. As this is an 'aggro' deck, the 2 initial mana could be too slow compared to Rancor s 1 mana. However, the potential damage output for a slower game is much higher with Ring of Kalonia .

...Perhaps using both?, or sideboarding Ring of Kalonia against slower control type decks?

@ daknik

If Epic Experiment pulls up a card:Devil's Play (or other X casting cost), you cannot cast it for anything other than X=0.

The 'may', simply refers to whether or not you can cast it, not wether or not you can choose to pay 0. If you chose to cast it, you pay cannot choose to pay anything other than 0.

As the card:Devil's Play spell is in exile until the Epic Experiment has finished resolving, and is in the graveyard when Epic Experiment has finished resolving, it will never be in you hand, and you will never have the priority timing required for casting the card:Devil's Play unless you choose to pay 0.

If anyone has tried to pull off this combo, you should not have let them; it is not a legal combo.

They also cannot chose to pay alternative costs, such as overload costs; and they must pay any additional costs required, such as the sacrifice requirement in card:Altar's Reap.

Okay, so my interpretation was wrong. Good to know that is one less combo to worry about.

I don't remember exactly how it went down. I was honestly just sitting there twiddling my thumbs watching this whole thing unfold, there was nothing I could do.

In the first game he may have cast it illegally, or he may have cast it next turn...I don't recall. Of course, if he drew it with Epic Experiment and kept it in hand, that is also illegal. I do know he had 14 lands to tap for card:Devil's Play when he hit me. I was at 26 life thanks to hitting him as much as I could with Vampire Nighthawk up until he bombed me for 28. So you'd need a lot of lifegain to counter it.

Now the second game, he included Temporal Mastery into the combo so he was able to take an extra turn and untap everything.

I'll be more attentive if this happens to me again and make sure he's casting appropriately.

What do you think about subbing 3 of these cards out for planeswalkers listed on my maybeboard?

Who would be good to drop?

1 Vraska the Unseen 2 Garruk Relentless  ^Flip

Dreg manglers might be okay to drop... are there any other candidates?

Vraska is good for permanent destruction, and garruk gives me aggro tokens and allows me to sack them to pull my core creature cards from my library.

I personally really like Garruk Relentless  ^Flip . I've been trying to get my hands on one for my Golgari/Counter deck for quite a while. No one wants to part with him right now. Definitely advise using him in B/G.

Vraska the Unseen I'm not too crazy about. I was running one for awhile and it honestly is not as threatening as it sounds. She's a 5cmc drop, you only have 1, and she becomes a big target once she hits the board. Her +1 helps, but really doesn't stop all that damage from hitting her. Before I pulled her from my deck I had only gotten the Assassin Token + card:Rogue's Passage combo off once for the win.

I was actually thinking about using vraska for her +1 and -3. Her ult only accomplishes what my golgari deck is doing already. If a creature gets through that late in the game i'll prob win if they are an assassin or not.

BUT she can destroy 2 non-land perms her 4th turn out. Its like a rechargable dis-enchant and can also remove creatures that prevent damage, etc.

But supposing I only use my 2 Garruk.... what should I pull out?

Maybe 1 mangler and 1 hydra? or 2 manglers? I suppose technically since his flip -3 can bring any creature to my hand for a token it doesn't matter if I get rid of a corpsejack or something...

I meant his flip -1*

I'm going to FNM again tonight. None of the planeswalkers are going to see play tonight until I can test them. HOWEVER this will be my first night with a full set of cemeteries and shocklands so I am very excited! I'll post an update after.

Hey how did it go? I'm curious since I'm running a similar deck.

I'll run another play-by-play update tonight then store the old comments under the update like I did before. Sorry for the delays, working on my labs before break!

I'm thinking about adding 4 Pithing Needle to the sideboard for these walker decks. I'd probably take out 1 Crushing Vines , 2 card:Ranger's Guile, and 1 Essence Harvest for those changes.

My main cards I'd use from the sideboard would be Sheltering Word and Pithing Needle .

Necropolis Regent . This card goes a long way in my golgari deck

Necro angent looks like it would help my corpsejacks stack tokens on creatures even faster but i have hesitated because of its large swamp cost. Most of my creatures are majority forest and i tend to place those first after i get a shockland.

Im thinking about adding a singleton of him to search for with garruk. I really dont want him to be drawn till my field is getting big.

I need to fnm test garruk and if he works out well ill consider it further.

I'm hoping Gavin Verhey has some tips to add. I sent him a copy of my decklist for his next segment "reconstructing on a budget".

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Archive.aspx?author=Gavin%20Verhey

hi,nice deck - like the idea ;)

a bit of (i hope) good critics:1st: u have very low number of 1 drops and no acceleration - put the mana elfs in or/and gravecrawlers2nd: loose the ooze - it's effect is not so good and the mana cost is absurd with 2 black 3 drop as the nighthawk - add more farseek3rd: add lotleth troll - u have no turn 2 drops - he can get massive power for the Harvest effectlast: why not Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord as a Essence Harvest effect

hope it helps :)

Agree with that last comment and also have you considered Deadbridge Goliath ?

I originally had 2 Goliaths and pulled them out because they interrupted my other 3 and 4 drops. Also, they do not pose a long-term threat to a player. If for instance, I have a nighthawk and an ooze on the board, they have to choose which to exile most of the time. Ditto for hydra or corpsejack. Goliath doesn't have much potential to grow and can be ignored if it doesnt have trample. It wouldnt be considered as big of a threat as say, a big lambholt or a corpsejack.

I agree about the arbor elves and am experimenting this week. I have yet however, to decide what to remove for them. At the moment the only card that doesnt really synergize and that gets killed off or controlled early is my shaman. Its an amazing card but i'm seriously considering trying a Friday without it for more ramp to midrange.

The meta at the 3 places I play at is littered with boardwipe white cards like Supreme Verdict and creature destruction cards. I like that ooze can make its own counters and is immune to the common answers to my deck. Add hexproof instants to the mix and hes the biggest threat in my deck (I'd say even above nighthawk). Hes also more resilient than Lotleth troll whom you have to save mana to regenerate.

I'm considering adding 1 more farseek if I can acquire one. I want to avoid 4 because its a great turn 2 play, but gets in the way otherwise.

Lotleth troll fulfills the same roll as ooze. A resilient creature that builds its own +1/+1 counters. Unfortunately, every one of my creatures is built to synergize with the deck. Short of sacking arbor elves there's nothing worth sacking to +1 him. All of the cards i'd be sacking build +1 counters more quickly and cost-free. The trample isnt anything special in a deck with 3 rancor and lambholts ability. I'm considering increasing her to a 3 count.

Jarad is another 4 drop I removed from this deck. At one point I had 2 of them... but I quickly learned that people usually are not capable of killing my creatures, and usually have to exile them instead. Jarad gets +1/+1 but not counters and this invalidates corpsejack's central ability. His sacking ability requires me to sack a creature to do damage, which I suppose could work with Garruk's tokens. However, to do his full combo 1 time It requires 7 mana and a creature. I can cast Essence Harvest for 3 mana and I do not need to sack a creature to do it. Essence Harvest just seems to synergize better with my particular combo (Jarad isn't a bad card). If anything I need to get 4 harvest.

All of these are great suggestions, especially about my early turns. The only cards I can play turn 1 are deathrite shaman, and turn 2 are rancor, blessings of nature, and farseek. I need to find a way to incorporate the elves and perhaps more farseek.

At the moment I am thinking about sacking the 3 shaman and the 3 manglers for 4 elves, 1 farseek, and 1 harvest. but I am unsure. The Mangler/Rancor combo for 4 mana is always very useful. (5/3 Haste Trample)