Harmonize was a difficult include for me as well, but it's pretty much the only option G/W and Naya have for card advantage. I don't think giving it a test would be that detrimental as it's a pretty cheap card monetarily. I've had good experiences with it, but I get that not every card translates well.

Also, I wasn't saying you should be running the same exact disruption spells as I do, but that maybe you should consider running more of them. Cards like Possibility Storm, Pyroblast, Nevermore, Choke, Red Elemental Blast, Thalia, Heretic Cathar, and Blind Obedience are all decent options. Your ideal disruption card is something that comes down before Uril or is low cmc and is as asymmetrical in your favor as possible.

Artifact disruption cards (I.e. Stony Silence & Null Rod) are more for shutting down fast mana than they are hosing decks like Arcum Dagsson. Fast mana effects are too common in EDH (at least in my meta) to pass on aforementioned effects. If this is not the case for you, then I could see how you could forgo Null Rod and Stony Silence.

On a side note, I think we might have different definitions of "disruption". I don't necessarily believe removal to be disruption. To me disruption is an ongoing effect that negatively impacts a player or group of players. Thus, in my interpretation you would only have two disruption effects or ~2% (assuming Teeg and Abolisher will be in the next update, please correct me if you have decided to go ahead and include more than this).

I ended up cutting Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx as well due to that fact that I couldn't find a slot for it after discovering Command Beacon was a card.

It's always very difficult to maintain fast mana effects (like Avacyn's Pilgrim) as well as include cards that will carry you through the late game if your general gets wrathed. I've found that in addition to a plethora of indestructible and disruption effects, just knowing how to navigate the game is incredibly helpful. Sometimes you just can't win and you have to live with knowing that you'll occasionally get land screwed, someone will have the nuts, or the table will seemingly have an everflowing number of answers. It's just how Magic works.

I don't want to sound too cliche, but the best thing you can do once you've done solid conceptual work is play games as if they're a learning experience. Coming to better understand your deck and meta is crucial for consistency. People will most likely complain that you play the same deck too much, but if your goal is to build the voltron deck that works best for you then it shouldn't bother you.

NP. Although I can't playtest with you or learn your meta, I'm always open to helping out. Feel free to bring up discussion points as you see fit.

My deck performed pretty well tonight, but the combined power of enchantment-based destruction and counterspells was ultimately my undoing. Even with two effective card-draw engines, I really wish I had Wheel of Fortune at that point in the game, but maybe that's just desperation talking. Had I mulliganed more aggressively like you suggested, I probably would have won. I definitely avenged my loss from the previous game, just like this deck was designed to do.

I don't know that I encountered a point where Stony Silence or Null Rod would have been useful, and Torpor Orb would have been beneficial in one game and against one player in particular. Don't get me wrong: they're great cards: they just wouldn't have had much relevance.

Thalia, Heretic Cathar is great for its low cmc cost and its effect: any other creature-based prison effects you'd recommend off the top of your head?

Possibility Storm is kinda high in terms of its cmc cost, and Choke is somewhat narrow, but I'm running out of low-cost stax options that don't adversely affect my general, so I might have to risk including the latter, even if it ultimately ends up being a dead card. The rest are definitely viable options: I might have to re-think my cmc limit, but I do agree with your philosophy of being oppressive with prison cards, as opposed to just surviving with pillow fort cards.

What do you think of Mana Web, Mystic Barrier, Crackdown, Karmic Justice, Impending Disaster and Smoke? Not great cards, and I know Mystic Barrier isn't cheap, but it would probably keep me from losing. I don't know. lol Just saw 'em in my notebook, and they seemed somewhat functional.

Thinking of squeezing Contested Cliffs in there: it really would have been useful tonight.

So would you recommend the inclusion of roughly 7 removal cards and 7 stax cards? I typically consider wrath effects to be removal.

Also, I'll work on updating my decklist, once I get the stax cards figured out and roughly how many I should include.

Omen Machine vs Possibility Storm?

Assuming my total number of disruption cards is seven, I was thinking that those slots would be filled by Gaddock Teeg, Grand Abolisher, Blind Obedience Aven Mindcensor, Armageddon, Red Elemental Blast and Constant Mists.

I was thinking of including an extra land destruction spell or counterspell, but I figured that diversification might be important, given the limited number of slots available: that's why I just selected one counterspell. Constant Mists Would definitely be an asset in my deck.

My removal would consist of Winds of Rath, Beast Within, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Grasp of Fate, Chaos Warp and Hull Breach.

What do you think? That's assuming I adhere to 14 slots.

I guess another way of looking at it is that these are my 14 survival cards, and I tried to categorize them as best I could, albeit loosely. lol

Glad to hear the deck has turned out for you, even if it was slightly.

I'd choose Possibility Storm over Omen Machine. It's an enchantment, has a lower cmc, and the player casting the spell is probably not going to get something they want.

Personally, I would just replace Winds of Rath. My logic being that I usually only need a board wipe when I am behind (i.e. My general has been wiped a bunch/poor boarstate). If this is the case, then I've probably already lost. Voltron is an aggressive deck, thus we need to focus on resilience and efficiency.

Out of the cards you suggested, only Smoke and Impending Disaster are worth testing in my opinion. The rest feel way too marginal.

There's nothing wrong with wanting Wheel of Fortune. It's an amazing card, yet I forgot about it. It's definitely a better option than Harmonize granted you have the money to acquire one. I'd include it if you have the ability.

Other than Thalia, Heretic Cathar, there is Linvala, Keeper of Silence (good if your meta has an abundance of Kiki/Splinter Twin combo, early game mana elves, or generals with problematic activated abilities like Arcum Dagsson or Yisan, the Wanderer Bard) and Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon (this depends on how comfortable you are playing a three color deck with this kind of effect as well as how many decks in your meta will be punished by it).

I've also tested Sanctum Prelate and Ethersworn Canonist, but they hindered us too much. Scavenging Ooze and Containment Priest didn't do much either, but testing them led me to find that Ground Seal was the most efficient graveyard hate option.

I think running 4 colorless lands is fine. I have gotten away with it and had few issues. You have a lot more options than I do when it comes to that last colorless slot, so choose wisely. Do you value the haste, pump, and vigalence of Slayers' Stronghold? The large pump and evasion from Kessig Wolf Run? The double strike from Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion? The removal that comes with Contested Cliffs? Or the protection that comes from Yavimaya Hollow?

You could also probably benefit from including these in addition to original duals in your mana base: Grove of the Burnwillows, Horizon Canopy, Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers, Mana Confluence, City of Brass, and more fetches.

A lot of the aforementioned duals are at the very least better options than the speed lands and with the addition of more non-basics probably the check lands too.

First off, excellent suggestions! I think I have an idea for the next draft of my deck. I would be craft a more detailed response, but I'm a little short on time today. I guess I'll update it a little bit later and get back to you with the updated draft.

That being said, when I update it again, I'll create custom categories for each type of card, so that it's easier to analyze the differences, and I'll update the lands as well, though I don't tend to have any color-fixing issues, due to the broad range of duals at my disposal, not to mention dorks and rocks. I have actually been using some additional dual lands recently, but I wanted to wait to acquire all my cards and get some more feedback from you before I made an update to my decklist.

Just to be clear, you'd recommend replacing Winds of Rath with a single-target creaure removal spell, right?

Thanks! And no worries, do what you can when you have the time. I just happen to get caught up in my posts and lose track of time.

Really? I'm actually surprised you don't have trouble with mana fixing considering how vital the early points on the curve are. Nevertheless, I do believe the options I listed would work on a more consistent basis than what you currently have.

I don't think you need more interaction. There are really not too many more good options aside from what you already have. Song of the Dryads, Council's Judgment (if your meta has decent threat assessment skills), Decimate, or Unexpectedly Absent are the only decent options I can think of that you don't already have. Out of those Unexpectedly Absent is probably your best bet.

Honestly, I'd replace Winds of Rath with Wheel of Fortune, Pyroblast, one of the previously mentioned disruption effects, or Cartouche of Zeal.

Song of the Dryads is so versatile! It's one I'll inevitably acquire, and I like the versatility of Decimate as well, but I didn't know how you felt about the cmc cost, though its value is through the roof. I think Council's Judgment would work well, though I'll usually be the biggest immediate threat, but my creature does have hexproof. Unexpectedly Absent is really good, actually, though I might have to align with a blue player to ensure that it's countered once it's played again, assuming the opponent in question doesn't shuffle his library.

Thanks, that gives me a much better idea of what to include: I'm really inexperienced when it comes to white, so practically everything from that color is a new card to me.

Removal spells being instant speed is a lot more relevant and that is why I prefer Unexpectedly Absent.

Decimate is high cmc and must have legal targets for all portions of the spell otherwise you do have to target your own stuff.

Council's Judgment does not target for one thing, so it gets around hexproof. Judgment only targets cards you don't control so people can never vote for your stuff anyways. It's only really useful if your meta is decent at threat assessment and you have someone running a general like Animar, Soul of Elements to get max utility out of the card.

I was underwhelmed by Song of the Dryads and ended up cutting it.

I just felt like I did not need more interaction, which was why I was trying to urge you in that direction as well. If you still feel you need more removal after my explanations though, then I wouldn't question your decision making.

I should've mentioned this in the last post...

I also feel like Cast Out is at least worth a mention too as cycling is relevant for maintaining card quality.

Actually I just realized Cast Out has flash too...it's probably the best option IF you are going to include another removal spell.

I had forgotten that Decimate had to be cast at sorcery speed: if it was an instant, I probably would still add it.

Do you dislike Song of the Dryads because of how rarely you needed to resort to its psuedo-removal ability for 3 mana?

Cast Out seems solid. The instant speed really helps make up for the casting cost.

I just don't think an additional removal spell is necessary and that's why I'm trying to suggest things with cycling lol. (Well that and cycling like phyrexian mana is inherently amazing when placed on a fairly costed card.)

I also want to suggest Sweltering Suns. It or Cast Out seem to be the best options if you go with a removal spell, however I still do believe that Wheel of Fortune would perform much better in this slot.

I eliminated Song of the Dryads from the deck because I found myself rarely casting it. It was not an instant and therefore did not have the reactive potential that you want from a removal spell. 3 mana is also a lot for this deck especially when you have to do it on your turn.

I'm a big fan of the update, the deck has come a long way. However there still are a few things that I think would make the deck better still:

• Unravel the Aether -> Qasali Pridemage

• Rounding out the curve so that it has the look of a descending staircase. To do this we need to replace a 3-drop with either a 1-, 2-, or 4-drop. Snake Umbra is definitely the weakest 3-drop.

• Holy Mantle could still probably be replaced. I still find this card to be really unimpressive at 4 mana.

• Lastly, Grasp of Fate is still missing. This card is really hard to pass up.

I don't want this to get lost in translation over multiple posts so I'll try to fix the curve and you can either agree or disagree with my adjustments...

• Holy Mantle -> Stranglehold.

• Snake Umbra -> Regrowth/Cartouche of Zeal.

• Unravel the Aether -> Qasali Pridemage.

• Chaos Warp -> Grasp of Fate (maybe???). Grasp of Fate is definitely better than Cast Out, but if we replace a 4 with a 3 then we mess up the curve again.

You mentioned getting rid of the color fixing enchants like Abundant Growth and Unbridled Growth, but those are there for multiple reasons. They add to enchantment count (for both Ancestral Mask & Ethereal Armor), can filter and/or draw cards, and provide early game fixing. There is not really a need to remove them as they actually do more than you think.

Do you find yourself getting board wiped that much that you need the second Replenish effect in Retether? If not, I'd just replace it with Regrowth. If so, just leave it.

The lands that I suggested were...Grove of the Burnwillows, Horizon Canopy, City of Brass, Mana Confluence, more fetches, and Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers. They will be better than the speed lands and with the replacement of more basic lands, better than the check lands as well. I definitely would not get rid of all your basics though.

My suggestion for your ideal land base would be...

1x Ancient Tomb

1x Misty Rainforest

1x Cavern of Souls

1x Arid Mesa

1x Command Beacon

1x Command Tower

1x Contested Cliffs

1x City of Brass

1x Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers

3x Forest

1x Verdant Catacombs

1x Horizon Canopy

1x Grove of the Burnwillows

2x Mountain

1x Scalding Tarn

4x Plains

1x Marsh Flats

1x Plateau

1x Mana Confluence

1x Flooded Strand

1x Sacred Foundry

1x Savannah

1x Stomping Ground

1x Bloodstained Mire

1x Taiga

1x Temple Garden

1x Windswept Heath

1x Wooded Foothills

I also love that you have this deck tagged as "casual," this deck is a far cry from casual. Lol

Edit: Snake Umbra -> Regrowth, Cartouche of Zeal, Fertile Ground.

Thanks, man: people don't tend to think of voltron decks as being competitive, so that's why a labeled it as a casual deck.

The main reason I like Holy Mantle is because it offers evasion, and I feel like that's arguably the most important type of enchantment, but if I replace it with Stranglehold that brings me down to 18 auras, which is a little scary, and if I remove Snake Umbra, that leaves me with just 17 auras, compared to the 19 that you have. You sure that's not too low? Also, by adding Stranglehold, should I just scrap Aven Mindcensor?

At the very least I need Replenish, but I don't mind getting rid of Retether and replacing it with Regrowth. Board wipes aren't so bad during the early goings, but I tend to get focused because of how powerful Uril, The Mistalker gets in such a short period of time.

I don't mind exchanging Grasp of Fate with Cast Out because it does more for less, but I love Cast Out's instant speed.

I don't have copies of Grove of the Burnwillows or Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers, but I have City of Brass, Mana Confluence and Horizon Canopy. The additional fetch lands are cool, but given how few basics I would have and the fact that I'd be limited to fetching only one type of basic is a concern.

I'm completely at ease with most of your suggestions: my only worries are decreasing the total number of auras in my deck and acquiring those off-color fetch lands, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

Not sure if you know, but fetches can get dual lands. For example, Verdant Catacombs can get you a Savannah, Temple Garden, Taiga, or Stomping grounds in addition to its ability to get a basic. Fetches warrant their price for a reason.

Just leave the Cast Out. It's an amazing card and I don't really want to keep messing with the curve. We would have to remove Chaos Warp to keep the curve correct though. Grasp of Fate is probably better than Chaos Warp too (now that I think about it) just because it gets rid of three permanants with no drawback.

I would probably replace Retether with Regrowth. It helps you curve out better.

We really need to get rid of a three drop to curve out...hmmm how about this...

• Holy Mantle -> Angelic Destiny. Gets you an OHKO with double strike. Plus it recurs itself.

• Snake Umbra -> Stranglehold/Cartouche of Zeal. I don't think going down to 18 should be that different. Having multiple of the same effect is always good in EDH, but if you're worried about it I think the other aura is fine. Cartouche lets you recover well if Uril gets hit by a board wipe or close out a game for a low CMC.

• Retether -> Regrowth.

• I'll let you make the decision between Chaos Warp and Grasp of Fate. I don't think this one makes too much of a difference.

**Edit: I just realized, you only have one double strike enabler...this is better:

• Snake Umbra -> Duelist's Heritage (Additional double strike)

• Aven Mindcensor -> Stranglehold (Fixes curve)

• Retether -> Regrowth (Fixes curve)

• Holy Mantle -> Angelic Destiny (Better option IMO)

• Your choice: Chaos Warp, Grasp of Fate, or Sweltering Suns.**

I had forgotten that fetches could pull dual lands, and I'm all for deck-thinning: that being said, I'll still have to wait a bit before I can purchase them. I'll wait until I acquire these cards before I update the lands in my deck list: that way I can test them out, though I'm pretty confident that they should work just fine.

Perhaps you could explain something else to an amateur like myself: I would have thought that because Chaos Warp is lower in cmc that it would be the superior choice to something like Cast Out, but maybe I just don't understand the curve.

I agree 100% with replacing Retether with Regrowth. When I updated my deck list, Regrowth and Cast Out were supposed to be in there, but I accidentally left them out.

Considering your idea of using oppression to incapacitate your opponent into submission, as opposed to relying on defensive cards like Dueling Grounds, do you feel like Constant Mists and Red Elemental Blast don't do do enough? Would something like Choke be superior to Pyroblast, due to its more devastating, long-term impact?

Cool, Angelic Destiny works great.

I kinda like the staxy approach of layering one type of prison on top of the other, in addition to the inherent diversity involved, but preventing your opponents from drawing/tutoring cards is a powerful effect. I had considered using Nevermore to oppose more commander-centric strategies, but that could possibly be a dead card, though Stranglehold rarely would be.

This is off-topic, but one of the reasons voltron is so fun for me is because it's so different from the standard decks that most players use and creates fun interactions. I like being able to humble the snobby spike player (not saying all spikes are snobby) that I occasionally play against and level the playing field so that other people can actually have fun, and while I wouldn't consider voltron entirely unorthodox, it is pretty uncommon to see it played.

Anyway, I guess what I'm asking is: are there are any other unorthodox deck types that you would recommend? I get tired of seeing the same decks all the time, so playing something both unique and competitive would be a lot of fun, and most people wouldn't know how to react to something like that. At heart, I'm probably a Timmy player, which is partly why voltron appeals to me.

Lol I can't tell whether you're being sarcastic or not about the "amateur" thing, but "curving out" would mean playing something on each turn. I would want lots of 1-drops because it ups the chances I will be doing something during the first turn of the game, then less two drops, and so on and so fourth. Ideally, this means we are likely to things like play a 4-drop on turn four, two 2-drops, or one 3-drop and one 1-drop because the curve is structured so we are less likely to see cards of increasing costs. This means we are building the deck such that it will perform as efficiently as possible on each turn of the game with as few lands as possible. Is this a sufficient explanation?

We ideally want to maintain the "decreasing staircase" curve, so if we were to remove something like Constant Mists we could not replace it with Choke without removing an additional 3-drop and adding a 2-drop. If we don't follow these kind of procedures when building a deck that is excels during the early turns, we promote the chances of getting awkward openers and poor subsequent draws.

That being said, the effectiveness of Red Elemental Blast and Constant Mists depends on your meta. Are you the fastest, most oppressive deck? Then, Constant Mists probably isn't necessary because if you get too far behind then you probably already lost. Most competitive decks experience a lot of blue in their meta's, so cards like Choke and Pyroblast are quite commonplace cards.

We ideally want to keep your aura count in the range 18 - 20, this will result in the lowest variance so you were correct in calling me out on one of the previous posts.

Cyclonic Rift, Toxic Deluge, and Arcane Lighthouse are the most commonplace answers to our strategy. Since you know this, Nevermore is a much more useful card. You should always be naming Rift or Deluge if blue or black is at the table. You unfortunately also have to worry about sacrifice effects, which is why I encouraged you to include Dryad Arbor awhile back as fetching it up can save you in a pinch. The most commonplace sac-effect you will have to be weary of is more than likely Living Death. It's difficult to account for sac-effects though as they warrant the addition of very narrow cards like Tajuru Preserver or Angel of Jubilation, which we don't want. I guess what I said was a bit roundabout, but Nevermore is probably the best option to stop people from playing the aforementioned problematic spells. Nevermore should rarely be a dead draw you either name a problematic commander or one of the aforementioned cards.

I think if you make the changes from my previous post, you should be fine. If you want to include Choke/Nevermore, we could make the following changes...

• Verduran Enchantress -> Eidolon of Blossoms

• Red Elemental Blast -> Choke/Nevermore

• Constant Mists -> 1-mana ramp spell (most likely Avacyn's Pilgrim/Crop Rotation.

I have no idea what "Timmy player" means, could you elaborate? Recommending an "interesting" deck to someone is difficult because everyone has a different idea of what is interesting. If you enjoy quality decks that perform consistently, then the cEDH tier list has plenty of examples of decks that do just that. I can't really vouch for how interesting they are though. I guess some of the one's that I found to be more interesting were an angel of glory's rise + child of alara combo deck, a captain sisay paradox engine storm deck, a combo-control grand arbiter deck, and a pretty standard sliver overlord deck.

Finally, it would really help me with future suggestions if you could be more vocal about what proposed changes you plan to act upon otherwise it feels as though I am trying to read between the lines and find how exactly you intend to change the deck (which effects the curve, which in turn effects the cards I suggest).

Edit: Verduran Enchantress -> Eidolon of Blossoms or Chaos Warp -> Decimate.

Sorry about the impromptu suggestion of Choke and Nevermore I had only just thought of them while I was messaging you.

That's pretty much all I can think of anyway. Thanks so much, man!

I was kind of thinking of an interesting mechanic to build a deck around. I remember my first legacy deck had a synergistic soulbond mechanic that I had a lot of fun with.

There's three basic types of players: a Timmy, a Johnny and a Spike.

Spike derives enjoyment only from winning, and his decks are built with the simple goal of being the best.

Johnny is a creative player, who uses the game of Magic as a form of self-expression and wins with obscure cards that most people overlook.

Timmy is a power gamer who likes to win big by smashing his opponents. He likes his cards to be impressive and enjoys playing big creatures and spells.

There are also hybrids like Timmy/Johnny.

They even made at least one card as to represent one of the aforementioned personality profiles: Timmy, Power Gamer

NP and feel free to ask if you need anymore advice.

I feel you on the interesting thing. I always try to come up with "unique" strategies for EDH, but nothing frustrates me more than investing time and money into a deck and having it not perform. Thus, I usually end up scrapping most decks before they even get to the playtesting stage. I have my qualms with EDH as it's increasingly difficult to close out a game without an infinite combo or an unstoppable creature, but I assume I'll eventually find something that interests me and works. For now, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you are - looking for another strategy that comes off as "interesting", but will still perform well.

Yeah, I feel you: I've built decks in the past, only to dismantle them and use the pieces for other decks because they just didn't perform as expected. It's happened more often than I would like, so I don't like to take the risk, either.

I think I've mostly adjusted the the non-land cards according to your specifications, but I'm pretty sure that I messed up along the way, since I somehow still have Verduran Enchantress: this process has gotten a little confusing since my actual deck and my deck list are at different stages of completion, and I've been updating them both as I go. One more tweak should correct the problem: it's my fault for asking about the inclusion of Choke and Nevermore at the tail-end of our conversation.