dingusdingo You have a lot of good points there. Since you are disagreeing with basically all stuff they put in this list then could you kindly share your own Urza list I would be very happy to check it out :)

i prefer fedex

dingusdingo some interesting input for sure but doesn’t change the fact that the way you communicate it feels like you‘re a huge toxic fucktard

When I said the upvoters are drinking the Kool-Aid, I meant what I said. The amount of people crawling out of the wood-work to defend this post just because it has these 4 big name brewers on it is sad. Think for yourselves you sheep.

Ahzrabus Oh no, some 2 year old account with literally 0 decks insulted me after I called out 4 big brewers on this website! Oh no, two of those brewers logged in a few days ago! Oh no, this is the only recent comment of this 2 year old account!

Brilliant mate, how about this time you log in under your main account and talk about some cards instead of flinging shit? I'm sorry your feelers are hurt that I called your bad deck bad, but now its time to put on your big boy pants and accept critique or give reasoning for card choices.

Either way, man what a useless fucking comment. If you aren't one of these brewers its laughably sad. Why even post?

sake I have no interest in brewing Urza. I just don't want to see the steaming pile of shit that is Legacy's Allure get slotted in young Timmy's deck because he saw it here first.

alright well sure why not ill take a stab but i suck at magic and also didnt make this list so if that discounts me you can stop reading now, though since it appears to matter, yes this is my main account

General comment about the state of the format, and how it's changed a lot since Oracle. Urza isn't a considerably quick deck, the nature of mono blue limits its options speedwise, and while the card quality blue has is on average, very high, mono blue normally is not as consistently fast as decks with black - though with certain draws it can be.

This puts Urza in a weird spot deck building wise. Urza wants to play to the board and develop its mana and board state. But Urza is ultimately a value card overall, which is even reflected outside of EDH as most Urza decks across formats are some mixture of midrange with a combo finish. Does not mean EDH must do the same but such a strategy has legs.

Okay so now EDH context. Urza isn't the fastest deck at the table. Especially with Oracle Hulk being the strongest deck now - this puts stress on Urza to hold up interaction consistently as opposed to develop mana for a few turns and attempt to combo.

Some of the artifacts can do both, some cannot. My point is that just vomiting artifacts and goldfishing a few turns doesn't work in EDH unless you are the Flash deck. Urza has to accommodate that. Thus, a midrage plan is explored.

Okay specific cards:

Legacy's Allure - I've not been big on it. Also it looks weaker now cause like, it's not as playable any more. It was Hulk tech cause it worked vs. older Hulk piles. It's not effective any more into Hulk, and is a very reasonable cut.

Homeward Path effects - I'll be honest I've never seen this played in a cEDH deck. The effect is so narrow for a poor manabase addition. It's severe deckbuilding cost to run this single card for what is, 1 or 2 effects max across a format. Anyone running this for just Drake is probably focusing on too small a margin.

Pithing Needle effects - Similar, I don't think it's necessary to skew a deck so harshly for a single card. Needle is rare, Revoker is more common. Totem would be the real issue to worry about. It's completely fine to tech more against it if you see it. But teching or skewing for specific effects not commonly played isn't a good idea.

Aether Spellbomb - Sure, I like it too. I see it in place of Allure with Oracle Hulk.

Recurring Insight - I don't think anyone who resolved this card has lost. It's a win-con itself. If you want to write this argument off, I don't think I can say much more.

Mishra's Workshop - Most EDH decks don't run enough artifacts for this. By the time you are your card quality is lower than it could be. I cannot say I've seen any EDH deck run an adequate density for this to not be a random ritual and then it's done. You need to skew heavily into artifact permanents, but then, see the original Urza gameplan argument.

Howling Mine - This card is actually dangerous if Urza is removed. Not a fan.

Trinisphere - It's amazing. In fact, it's so good, the authors literally said it's really good and you can run it. It's not cut.

Ensnaring Bridge - Mono blue is not a terribly inspiring Bridge deck considering there are so many good blue cards to run. But yes, it's playable in Urza.

Spinning Urza is strong, but arguing that counterspells make it miss and that card draw isn't good with it isn't understanding where Urza stands as a deck in the format. You probably aren't going to be able to sit and spin the wheel much in the current EDH climate. Or at least, not without getting Flashed on.

Expedition Map - It's fine. Not winning awards for speed, but it's an extra copy of a land.

Basalt + Rings has not been playable in cEDH for a very long time, and Urza doesn't change that. There is not an excuse to play poor quality cards for a moderate upside.

Urza isn't an artifact goldfish deck in EDH - or at least in the max power environment, it just can't afford to be any more. That's what many of these card choices have as context. If you have some different opinions sure. Doesn't make the entire list trash.

I find your aggressive comments on calling everyone stupid followers comical lmao. Like, come on that rhetoric is unnecessary. If you want to make a point, it should stand on its own by its actual soundness. Don't need to shit on literally everyone and then tell people to suck it up and put on "big boy pants" and give you a pass to engage in needlessly aggressive discourse.

but whatever i suck at mtg. its my real account tho, i used it like 2 days ago

AlwaysSleepy If you can't understand why I would point out when a 0 decks 1 post account logs in after two years to call me a fucktard, then there isn't much more to discuss on that point.

As far as whether or not you suck, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. I enjoy it when people with less or more experience post, as long as its discussing cards or linking new ones.

As far as building Urza midrange versus artifact focused, yes I understand why the choices are made. This just keeps coming back to some basic facts though. The commander makes mana from artifacts, and then uses lots of mana to get free spells. Running 12 counterspells is going to mess with Urza activations. In a vacuum, a counterspell is going to be better than a trinisphere, but do you know what card the deck always has access to, every single game, from turn 1? Urza! What does Urza do? Give mana from artifacts, and use mana to get free spells. Do you know what free spells are unfortunate to get from Urza activations? Counterspells!

To respond to your card comments

Legacy's Allure - I'm glad we are in agreement that this card should go.

Homeward Path - This card is very common as tech in Selvala and Yisan decks. Gilded Drake is a very popular card that can go into most competitive decks with blue as a piece of removal. Both Yisan and Selvala are extremely commander dependent while being mono colored, with the Crop Rotation already there in many builds. Just because the card is not run in the Shaper list does not mean the card does not see play, it is tech that shows up. Since the card makes those decks cry big fat tears when it is resolved, it goes in. Which brings us to

Pithing Needle and friends. There are enough of these effects and they are so rancid for this deck that you must be aware of them when you build. It is simply asinine to ignore how dire this card resolving is for this deck. The bigger problem with these types of cards is that this deck runs so little removal and places all emphasis on counterspells. As far as Needle appearing or not, just because it doesn't show up in a big name brewer list doesn't mean the card isn't played. I have seen many competitive commander decks slot this card. It is a strong hate card against many commanders, the card that everyone always has access to (if they run Homeward Path lol). This list crumples to turn 1 Pithing Needle and it serves as proof of what the card can do. 1 mana and 1 card to lock out a player from winning is significantly better than a counterspell. The card is mana denial against uncracked fetches (they can't crack in response to the naming), it hoses entire commanders, its great against the random planeswalkers that show up, its amazing against the random Animatou deck that showed up, it shuts off so many infinite combos and is such a strong answer that can go in any deck. P.S. it could even go into an Urza build

Aether Spellbomb - My thoughts exactly. Goes in for Allure

Recurring Insight - I can believe that anyone who has resolved it has won. There are caveats to that statement though. You're giving up big opportunity cost as you could have another card in that slot doing something else before 6 mana. It is also hard to protect it resolving, because it costs 6 mana. Let me use an analogy to make one last point. Just because I won by tutoring from Diabolic Tutor does not mean that Demonic Tutor is the same. You can run sub-optimal cards that lead to winning, that category would most likely encompass 99+% of decks made.

Mishra's Workshop - This card once again used to show flaws in deckbuilding. The commander focuses on artifacts. This deck doesn't have an artifact density high enough to run Workshop and put it to use. It runs 19 artifacts. This card and the commander make big mana for or from artifacts. After the lands, there are 68 slots. 19 are artifacts. This is another overall design flaw rather than weakness between the card and the commander.

Howling Mine - I agree that this card has risk associated with playing it. This is why timing is crucial. If played when Urza is on the board, you are able to advance meaningfully with an extra and card every turn for and 1 card. Howling Mine isn't great in a vacuum, but once again it goes really well with that one card we always have access to. Even if later Urza is removed, we got advantage from it first and we got it earlier. Giving all your opponents 1 extra card (so 3 total) on turn 5 is negated by getting an extra card for yourself on turn 3 and 4. Getting access to the cards earlier for us is worthwhile even if on a later turn our opponents are collectively getting 3 cards to our 3 cards. Timing is just required to make this card effective. I find it hilarious that this list realizes the benefit in running Winter Orb and Static Orb but glances over the same synergy with Howling Mine. Do you see how those cards also hurt you without your commander?

Trinisphere - Its totally not cut, just not in the list. The authors can put flowery words next to it but this card should be an auto include. Not having it here makes me question why.

Ensnaring Bridge - Not the best possible include but worth a consider if the deck is more artifact centric. Can hose down Tymna and also some win cons. Urza plays well with a small hand and a fatty board.

As far as "You're just going to get flashed on" I'm not advocating for eliminating counterspells completely. It could easily go down to 8 and you will still see counters in your opener. The forgiving mulligan rules of multiplayer with the added new London Mulligan makes it easy to go back for one if you see yourself sitting across from TnT.

Expedition Map - Leads to Tabernacle and leads to Inventor's Fair. You can use to go to Academy Ruins to plop back on top to continue to toolbox lands. Its a tutor in a relevant type that can become an engine in games where you have more space. In more artifact centric builds you can extend more into non-basic lands as fetch targets, because you will need less blue for counterspells and 6 mana draw spells and Legacy's Allure.

Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth is a usable combo in certain contexts. Gonna keep going back to this idea that we always have Urza in the command zone as being important to the development of the deck. Urza gives us A LOT OF MANA. Rings has a great effect, but needs A LOT OF MANA. See where I'm going here? When we get Rings activations onto fetches, we are double thinning and ramping ourselves, but we're also priming the deck for BETTER URZA ACTIVATIONS. You also get infinite mana loops with Codex Shredder and any card that goes to GY like a spell. Basalt is definitely a downgrade from Grim, but Rings is such an upgrade from Power Artifact for usefulness outside combo and mana isn't as much of an issue in Urza so I think its worthwhile.

As far as the rest of what you wrote, yeah nice dude this is a $4000 durdle list and you are out here defending it. These brewers are so isolated in their own meta they make absurd card choices and overall deckbuilding decisions. Yeah this list is trash dude, and my comments about people being sheep are funnier with every reply. Why are you out here schilling for this list? Idol worship or idle time?

dingusdingo For a broken clock, you were only right once and that's on Trinisphere.

You talk a lot for someone who clearly:

1. doesn't play on a very competitive meta
2. doesn't even play the deck (or anything close to mono U)

Instead of blabbing about whatever you think you know, how about backing it uo with at least some facts? any results yiu cab speak of? what about a list?

In my eyes this might not be the optimal Urza build (that's PolyTyrant), but this is a very well put together list for its game plan.

gtfooh

dingusdingo

I'm not sure how my comment may be construed to be idol worship lol. I'm providing an additional context.

So, for some of the card choices touched on, I think we have differing evaluations and overall opinions on cards. I'll just share for the record my quick evals for context:

I think Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth is just unplayable. I think both cards alone are not strong enough for play. I don't think Urza fixes them either. I get your point, Urza makes mana, and there's synergy. It shouldn't justify weak card choices. Urza in this case shaves off a small 1 mana from the investment for this pricy combo. From a cEDH perspective, regardless of Urza's improvement, it's unacceptable. Rings as value is undoubtedly too slow for the current meta.

I find Mishra's Workshop weakly tenable at best in EDH. You have to skew too much to make it a reasonable land, versus a ritual effect. By the time Workshop is consistently a land, I find, the deck has been weakened more than otherwise picking stronger cards.

The difference between Howling Mine and Winter Orb and crew (3ball included) is that the latter actually help you if untapped should Urza be gone. Mine will actively hurt you. Yes you can always try and time Urza to make it safer. Though realistically, people understand Urza is a major threat, and mini-combos with failure modes are not an acceptable power level for cEDH currently. I hold all cards to this metric. Narset's Reversal is another example I generally avoid playing unless specifically forced (like, in mono U). With Oracle Hulk being the prime metagame singularity, cards with failure modes in decks being taxed to interact is incorrect.

If you feel safe cutting some countermagic for artifacts, it's understandable as a deck building decision. Again though, I ask the question of really how much are you rushing Urza and just spinning the wheel that the issue with interaction density being higher somehow detracts overall. I don't think Urza can be built agnostic of the current meta. If you think it can be done leaner, sure, go ahead. But that's starting from behind as Urza doesn't win the race war. I'm not convinced this strategy is completely sound.

Look man, the issue isn't card choices, or who made the list, or what an opinion on cards is. It's that the changes in deck building decisions somehow led to this discussion on people being stupid sheep without any capacity to think. If someone disagrees with you, that shouldn't disqualify them as blind followers. If it does, the discourse isn't in good faith.

Theory arguments should stand alone and don't have to be backed by anything else.

jeacaveo To specifically answer you, I play weekly in a very competitive meta at my LGS in paper. I play against Consultation Hulk Najeela, Gitfrog, TnT Flash Hulk (now Fish Hulk), Brago Stax, Yisan, Doomsday Breya, and all kinds of other stuff. I am aware of the format, and the meta. I have played Azami and Naru Meha and Baral as mono blue decks, no I don't have lists for them on tappedout. Either way, I don't really care if you gatekeep me from "competitive" as long as you respond to my critiques or link cards. Which you didn't. So much along chump, your comment was worthless too.

AlwaysSleepy This list hasn't been updated for 5 months. You can speak about how the meta has changed with the coming of Oracle and how this deck brilliantly handles it, but that doesn't really mean anything to this list because it hasn't been updated. If it handles Oracle, it is by no intentional omission or addition from the brewers. I know you guys absolutely love to claim these brewers are 10/10 never before seen genius brewers, but ayyy lmao I'm going to need you guys to reel it in. This is what I mean when I talk about idol worship and people being mindless. This list is 5 months old. It wasn't good then. It still isn't good now. Defending this to your last breath is a weird hill to die on mate.

Basalt + Rings being considered unplayable is certainly understandable. Its in across two cards with another to start the combo for total. Grim + Power artifact is a half that at . Neither of the combos have an outlet themselves, and both of them produce colorless mana. I'm not arguing that the rings combo is more efficient, it definitely isn't. I'm arguing that Power Artifact is a 100% dead draw outside the combo and Rings gives better value outside the combo. I've playtested this deck. Numerous times. It runs out of gas frequently and struggles assembling and executing the combo. Rings + Basalt is easier to find, easier to recur, and Rings has much more incidental value and can form loops for winning with other cards already slotted, like Codex Shredder. PA is only getting tutored off two cards, Intuition and Muddle the Mixture. Rings is getting tutored off MANY more cards. Even if the speed is slower, the availability and utility is much higher. From the availability perspective, I think it is a much more valuable include. This deck struggles to assemble a win in a timely manner, so make the pieces more fetchable. Even if you disagree with Basalt + Rings, Grim + PA is definitely a weak combo in that PA is absolutely useless without Grim, and you get 2-for-1'd by artifact removal in response to casting PA. Some of the mana cost is negated with Urza too, but more importantly, you're more likely to have excess mana from other artifacts (if you run more than 17 ahahahaha) which helps to power the combo and sustain uses for value. Yes the value from Rings costs a lot, but wow! Urza makes mana! Maybe, if we combine the mana from other artifacts we're already playing, and then use that to pay for Rings activations, we can get ahead!

My biggest reason for including Rings + Basalt was because this deck is just slow as fuck. I understand it can't race against decks with Black, but honestly this $4000 durdle pile can't race at all. Having your game plan be "Untap, upkeep, draw, and that will be a pass from me" is unbelievably stupid. Compare to a deck like Rashmi or Baral, which can actually accrue value from this style of play. When given space, all this deck does is. . . uh . . . hold up mana for counterspells.

Mishra's Workshop - Oh no I only got TWO free rituals for slotting this card, what absolute garbage! There are no decks that run Dark Ritual as it is anyways, right?

Honestly the biggest problem with Workshop is a bad topdeck late game. P.S. this card also makes more sense with more artifacts. I'm not advocating for adding it in this list without adding other cards.

Howling Mine - Lets look. If Urza is in it draws you a card. If Urza is out it draws you a card. Seems like it still works without Urza.

Speaking about the failure mode though, Static Orb may wreck your game worse than 3 draw triggers. If you have Urza get removed while trying to protect, you're most likely tapped out. Not having the mana to interact with the Flash is going to be worse than giving the Flash player 1 more card. Similarly, other opponents are going to have mana difficulties with either of the Orbs to interact with the Flash Hulk player too. This is pretty well known, and the card is still ran. If you think that a colorless Dark Confidant + Mox Sapphire stapled to it with the failure of symmetry instead of asymmetry isn't worth running, we have nothing more to discuss on the matter.

I agree that Narset's Reversal is an over slotted card and should be used mostly in mono color. I think its popularity is because it serves as a Copy Artifact outlet with Dramatic Reversal, as it does here.

About Urza and spinning the wheel, its reusable card draw + play the spell. It doesn't replace your regular card draw, and yes having high counterspell density does cause more bricks from activations. The rest of your argument for this section talks about the "meta and how you can't be agnostic of it". Yeah dude, once again, this deck hasn't been updated in 5 months. Tell that to the brewers.

BUT PITHING NEEDLE DOESNT SEE PLAY SHAPER TOLD ME SO

Yeah dude, of the 400 cards you see in a pod, you only have control over 100. If your maximum power deck only works against maximum power decks, is it really a maximum power deck? Sure, in theory you shouldn't account for Needle, but

• This game being played in paper with real costs to cards means that the vast majority of players do not have 100% access to the cards they should slot, which means they put another card in that slot
• The vast majority of players are not aware of the competitive meta or lists. Those who are enfranchised with knowledge and access most likely are aware of how Needle performs in other formats and consider it here as well.
• A savvy player who loses to a deck that can be shut off by a single card may slot that card when they expect to see the deck again. The meta evolves as players realize how vulnerable this deck is to a 1 cmc card that literally any deck can slot
• Needle variants see play, and players without large card pools may slot more of the same effect. Players may also slot the needle in place of Totem or Linvala, especially if they are Modern players who already have the Needle but not a Totem.

Imagine someone running Kiki combo being shut off by someone's random Ghostly Prison. Sure, that card shouldn't be run in optimized lists, but not being able to handle permanents on the board speaks to bad building. How this deck fares against Needle effects is the same.

As far as blind followers and me shitting on 'em, look at the replies to my posts mate. We have

• Tepid regurgitation post from a fan restating the primer
• 0 decks 1 post guy calling me a fucktard but saying I might be onto something
• You, saying this deck is golden against Fish when it hasn't been updated since 5 months before Fish hit the scene
• Dominican bro saying I've obviously never played competitive because ??? No reason given
• Still no one can explain why this deck has a 90% match to CVT or why it runs only 5 pieces of removal

Lazy, phoned-in deck from 4 brewers who just couldn't be bothered. If this opinion makes you mad, or makes you need to @ me, its because you're basing it off the merit of the names associated with it instead of the cards listed inside it. You can justify it as handling Fish meta, but the list hasn't been updated. Y'all really drink the Kool-Aid, and you drink it all.

dingusdingo

I think some of your comments are talking past what I'm saying, but I may be doing likewise. So let me group it.

What we agree on:

1. Deck hasn't been updated - yeah I see that. Likely because it actually struggles in the current meta. Less so that I think it's still an optimal choice into Hulk.

2. Rings + Basalt: You see where I'm coming from in my evaluation of the combo. That's really it. If you still feel the utility is playable then go ahead. I am sharing why I will not play it.

Here's though where I feel like part of what I'm saying has not been adequately answered:

1. "List is 5 months old, tell that to the brewers" - But I'm talking to you. About where Urza should be now. Not about the brewers. My intent is to provide context on some choices overall and in the long term not justify them all.

2. Workshop - You want a colorless ritual, then go ahead and run it. I dislike it as a colorless ritual that eats a land space and a land drop. It's far less flexible than an actual ritual, I think that equivalence is not sound.

3. Howling Mine - Yes, it's a Confidant, also for your opponents. Ignoring that clause on the card will undoubtedly mis-evaluate it. Of course everyone wants Confidant + Sapphire. Howling Mine is not that. It's a Confidant for everyone when Urza is gone. All cards have some degree of failure mode with symmetric effects but I think Mine is more dangerous without Urza than other cards. More resources to opponents is a risky proposition.

Your discussion on tech isn't anything I've disagreed with. I said you need not tech so harshly for a single card (or group). If you see it, you can change your list to adapt. That's part of playing EDH.

I did not say it was good against Fish. I said, explicitly, that the meta should be accounted for when building a deck - and you should be realistic about how much you can lean on spinning Urza, etc. Your response was that this wasn't updated for 5 months. Excellent, I agree. That in no way invalidates anything I said about meta construction. There's no metaphorical Kool-Aid here. We're past the decklist posted clearly and talking about other deck construction choices. I asked questions about how realistic those are today. Simply saying the list is old as the response doesn't address the original comments.

If some of my disagreements will be regarded as just idol worship - then refer back the changes I would make myself to the list. The brewers are talented, but each pilot has their own preferences and meta expectations.

I'm okay with my own ability to pick cards for a list. I've listed the ones I would not play. Agreeing with something doesn't make it blind following.

dingusdingo I've been saying this since Day 1 about this specific Urza list. Too many people just going along with what the "almighty" puts together.

Personally, I've NEVER been a fan of the Timetwister loop win-con as WAY too many decks are running GY hate for the Anti-Hulk metas.

I myself have been playing Urza non stop since it's release and run more of the style you're preaching. Urza Feeling Lucky - cEDH Primer #1 Mono Blue

Since day 1 I argued on the discord that PA & Rings are auto includes w/ Urza, even before the PE ban. It wasn't until the PE ban that this "UPS" build adopted PA.

For me, I've been running 2 primary Win Cons from the start: Blue Sun's Zenith & Jace, Wielder of Mysteries.

AlwaysSleepy Alright dog this is getting tiring and trivial to speak with you

"I did not say it was good against Fish."

"General comment about the state of the format, and how it's changed a lot since Oracle. Urza isn't a considerably quick deck, the nature of mono blue limits its options speedwise, and while the card quality blue has is on average, very high, mono blue normally is not as consistently fast as decks with black - though with certain draws it can be."

"Okay so now EDH context. Urza isn't the fastest deck at the table. Especially with Oracle Hulk being the strongest deck now - this puts stress on Urza to hold up interaction consistently as opposed to develop mana for a few turns and attempt to combo."

"With Oracle Hulk being the prime metagame singularity, cards with failure modes in decks being taxed to interact is incorrect."

While you are correct that you aren't explicitly saying the deck is good against fish, do you see how your previous posts would cause a reader to assume that was your position? You talk about the deck in the context of fish hulk and then say "Oh I didn't say it was good against fish hulk". So why talk about it in the context of fish hulk? Or why bring up fish at all? Looks like you're defending the deck as viable against fish hulk. Yeah you can opine on "I'm looking past the list at a NEW urza list" but I'm posting these comments on this specific Urza list. Even a fully tuned Urza list isn't going to be very good in the meta. The color identity is too weak without Black or Green and will get outpaced by any UB or UG deck that has the option of Flash or forbidden tutors.

To address "Oh you can't just win by spinning the wheel". Let me quote you from myself

"About Urza and spinning the wheel, its reusable card draw + play the spell. It doesn't replace your regular card draw, and yes having high counterspell density does cause more bricks from activations."

Read: It doesn't replace your regular card draw. Do you really want me to finesse this point more? Artifacts make mana which lets you spin the wheel more which gives you more artifacts and permanents to spin the wheel more. Is getting 1 random card out of a 80-90 card deck going to win the game for you? No. Is being ignorant of an always available card draw outlet stupid? Yes. Once again, Urza activations make more sense in a deck with more artifacts. I'm not saying jam Urza and spin it with this garbage pile of 99 cards. I'm saying for a MONO BLUE DECK THAT STRUGGLES WITH GAS (ahahahahahahaha how the fuck are the brewers that bad?) having artifacts to spin the wheel gives you more cards.

To respond to your points though

1. I don't really care what your intent is. The reality is this list is outdated and people are chomping at the leash to defend it. Even fully updated and fully optimized for February 2020 meta, there is absolutely no reason to run this list. It gets BTFO'd by any consultation or Flash list game after game. Its a bad deck, it is being worshipped by clowns like you and the other posters above. Defending something so mediocre so vehemently speaks to, idol worship?
2. I'm saying even as a colorless ritual Workshop has merit. Once again though, advocating for more artifacts with the inclusion of Workshop. You are so intent on looking past the list towards a broader image of what an Urza deck is but you only view recommendations to Urza in the context of the list. It becomes an insane value land when you run more artifacts.
3. Speed and timing. 2 cards delivered to pilot on turn 3 and 4 outweigh 3 cards going to opponent on turn 5. It is based upon opportunity cost and resources available. If you have more options sooner, you gain access to better plays and winning lines. I know there are a lot of brainlets on this website, but if you're brewing and talking competitive Magic and can't understand speed and opportunity cost there is simply no reason to delve further into this topic with you. Also thinking of howling mine as 3-for-1'ing yourself is a terrible perspective. If you draw a card, and each opponent draws a card, you are all advancing 1/99 of the way through your deck, which keeps you on parity. You have given a total of 3 cards to your 1 card, but this thinking ignores how your opponents interact with each other in the match. A pod isn't a 3v1 experience. Its a 1v1v1v1. Giving up a rotation of Howling Mine is 1-for-1-for-1-for-1'ing yourself. I have a much easier time giving each opponent 1 card than giving 1 opponent 3 cards. Opponents will interact with each other just the same as they interact with you. Once again though, any pilot with any thought process at all isn't going to just jam this on turn 1 or 2 without Urza available. Breaking parity and getting the draws FIRST makes a huge difference with this card, and allows you to feel more comfortable giving up a rotation of draws.

Either way, I'm bored of rehashing the same points with you and other drones. I want to speak to the people in charge of the list.

P.S. I play Mountain then Pithing Needle, go ahead.

dingusdingo

lmao you are extremely intent on making sure everything I say must somehow be in defense of this list and only blindly following the brewers. If your intent is just to label me and call me stupid and unable to eval, sure. But seems like we won't agree on things.

"So why talk about it in the context of fish hulk? Or why bring up fish at all? Looks like you're defending the deck as viable against fish hulk."

Are you serious lol? Just ignore the meta when making a deck? Are you ignoring that I explicitly said "I don't think it's good against Fish Hulk"? You literally wrote off what I said to argue that I'm saying something else.

"Artifacts make mana which lets you spin the wheel more which gives you more artifacts and permanents to spin the wheel more."

Yes I know how Urza works. I literally said, if you want more artifacts in favor of interaction, go ahead.

"I don't really care what your intent is."

Why comment at all? Really. This is self-defeating. Your intent seems to just be inflammatory and call everyone who disagrees stupid.

"Defending something so mediocre so vehemently speaks to, idol worship?"

What part of "I don't think this list is strong in a Fish meta" didn't communicate how I felt? To me, it seems to be the word "don't."

"competitive Magic and can't understand speed and opportunity cost there is simply no reason to delve further into this topic with you"

ok

"You have given a total of 3 cards to your 1 card, but this thinking ignores how your opponents interact with each other in the match."

This argument fails by extension. Explicitly so. Everything can be rationalized in this way; with opponents interacting with each other. What about 2 cards? 10 cards? It's still a raw count of 3 per cycle, across players does not detract from its danger.

"Once again though, any pilot with any thought process at all isn't going to just jam this on turn 1 or 2 without Urza available."

Cool. I don't want to play weak mini-combos made of cards I can't even feasibly play early.

"Either way, I'm bored of rehashing the same points with you and other drones."

I feel like you want me to just be some blind follower.

So I'll reiterate:

I don't think Urza is feasilbe in a Fish meta.

But you won't let me make that argument so yeah, I guess we're done.

disgusdingo (did you get banned? can't @ you) you keep making the same attacks and invalid points, yet we don't see a list from you. Something with tested results and experience to backup your claims? I guess it's easier to critic with no base than it is to do something productive.

If you rally want to talk to the creators of the list, join the Discord server. It seems like you just want to grandstand knowing they dont engage in comments here.

dingusdingo omg finally someone with a brain, you actually get how trash this is vs Fish. I started to use the PolyTyrant builds but hated it's no-creature requirement, now I am on a list that is so anti-hulk it runs Torpor Orb and Grafdigger's Cage, Sorcerous Spyglass, Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle for my metagame xD

Otherwise, though ngl even that list sucks, I also agree with AlwaysSleepy about how bad this is against hulk.

Btw, when is this thing gonna get updates?

Tribute Mage - Not sure why this isn't on the list... Grabs you 2 potential combo pieces. Really doesn't make sense why this isn't on the list.

what about Storage Matrix as another stax piece? seems to do something similar to what Winter Orb and Static Orb can do.

I'm wondering, is there any clear line on what to get with Intuition? I'm building a list similar to this one and cannot see what I want to get/bin with it.

Thanks !

Winterrage Honestly it feels like this "UPS" list is outdated and not tuned for where the meta has gone. Personally I've dropped Intuition in my list. The card is better served in a deck that's gauranteed to have the GY recursion.

I've been keeping this list very up to date and constantly brewing ideas with other members: Urza Feeling Lucky - cEDH Primer #1 Mono Blue

To be frank, this UPS build is misleading and too many players are just following along. The fact that Trophy Mage isn't in the deck should be an immediate tell. Also, no Trickbind? With the Fish Hulk Meta off the chain, Trickbind is auto include in any blue deck.

Since day 1 I've been a supporter of PA in Urza. Well before the PE ban. This UPS list didn't include PA until after PE ban and even then it took the list a while to adopt it.

I'd strongly consider checking out this: Urza Feeling Lucky - cEDH Primer #1 Mono Blue

Thanks a lot ! I'll take a look at your list and update mine :)

Edit "The fact that Tribute Mage isn't in the deck."

I know this version never had Jace/labman/reservoir (and they explanation is valid.... is Thassa’s Oracle good enough for this build?

And this list has been updated, but there isn’t an explanation for the cuts/adds... would be helpful for a cEDH novice like me.

I can't afford Timetwister nor The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale what do you think it would be a good replacement? thanks

pitan77 I used echo of Eons instead of Timetwister.