ChiefBell, U/W has gotten way more results than G/W.

Yeah it (azorius) was the original list built but I don't feel it's optimal in many ways. I'ts going to be more popular because it's been around for longer but that doesn't make it "correct". Sakura-Tribe Elder is indubitably better than Pilgrim's Eye. Green also gives you Elvish Visionary which is debatable better and worse than Court Hussar. Being able to draw on turn 2 is obviously a big deal. Also the synergy between Voice of Resurgence and the reanimation elements is huge because you can repeatedly wipe to get tokens then reanimate to bring back the voice etc. You get a lot more instantaneous value whereas the azorius version usually waits a little time before the reanimation elements kick in. Selesnya "comes online" faster.

I think in this particular meta that we're in right now. The one where infect, suicide zoo, and affinity are among the top decks. I feel like Selesnya has a greater number of tools to deal with the aggro.

Tribe elder is better than pilgrims eye most of the time, unless the flying is relevant.

Elvish Visionary is worse than court hussar, it just is. You're basically saying that drawing one card is better than anticipate? I'd much rather be able to dig through 3 cards before choosing what to draw.

Voice of resurgence is an excellent card, but I don't feel it's necessary for the game plan.

Drawing on turn 2 is done with wall of omens, by the way. I would contend that voice of resurgence just doesn't fit the game plan, this isn't a token deck, and it doesn't need a clock.

actually, ChiefBell, blue white would be much better for the aggro matchup.Elvish Visionary is way worse than Court Hussar, which digs deeper for things you need.

yes, Voice of Resurgence is good in emeria with the wrath effects. but with the color blue, you get much much more valuable options. Snapcaster Mage, Gifts Ungiven, and we know that Wrath of God is worse than Supreme Verdict. blue gives you tutor options and much more versatility, which is the reason it is favored over white.

repeatable blocking effects are not necessary when you can dig for many answers using value creatures and other cards, so, Blue white is actually ten times better than green white. Green doesn't give you the ability to dig for answers, while blue does, and this is what this deck wants, since it goes the long game.

Wrath of God is BETTER than Supreme Verdict with Jund around at the moment. It's absolutely the better card unless Delver starts rearing it's head again, but that isn't the case. Not being countered is rarely useful against most decks. Infect might run 1 or 2 copies of a Spell Pierce after sideboarding but that's very easy to play around. On the other hand Jund is most definitely running Thrun, the Last Troll which is very relevant, and affinity has been known to run Welding Jar as well.

Court Hussar is useless when Infect and Affinity kill turn 3. It's far too slow. The only reason Elvish Visionary is preferable is because it threatens an attacking creature and draws you a card a turn earlier. This is absolutely a question of tempo. Your drawing effects are cute and all but absolutely useless if you've lost the game. Being able to get blockers out that much earlier, draw cards earlier, and stabilise earlier is what green offers and an absolute advantage. The card is completely worse at digging than hussar. Hussar is obviously the better card draw spell. But its completely clunky and slow and modern isn't about that at this point in time.

Voice of Resurgence is absolutely necessary for the gameplan when you don't want to die to Glistener Elf and others. It's not making into a tokens deck or some ludicrous thing like that. It's giving you an "out" and in high level tournament magic you want to play to your outs. Azorius offers outs in Supreme Verdict and Sun Titan but these are laughably slow and ineffective in this particular metagame right now. Selesnya on the other hand is offering a greater number of creatures that are going to threaten the smaller aggressors as early as turn 2, and they don't just do it once - they do it twice. Absolutely saturating the two mana slot is essential. If you can't develop your board state significantly at that point you're not going to be doing well at opens and larger events because the heart and soul of modern right now is aggressive decks that take turn 3 and 4 wins. If 50% of your deck can't be played until turn 3 - you have a problem. If 50% of your deck can played turn 2 you have an immense advantage. It's just tempo, and this is what makes modern go round.

The answer cards you are digging for, and the speed at which you are doing so is absolutely and completely subpar in blue. Green is preferable not because it digs better or anything like that but because it's far better at actually not dying and putting pressure on, which is absolutely what a deck needs to be doing right now. This is a format in which you cannot afford to have a majority of 3 mana spells in your deck. It's just a question of statistics. You want to maximise what you can do as early as possible. On turn four I'm very likely to be able to cast two spells, whereas if you saturate on three drops you're only likely to be able to cast one. Furthermore, with Sakura-Tribe Elder, I'm much more likely to hit turn three Wrath of God which is a HUGE advantage. Like an immeasurably large advantage.

Your argument is predicated on the fact that if you find the right cards you can win the game. This is technically true if, and only if, you're not dead by the time you get to cast those cards you were digging for. Selesnya is very good at preventing this from happening. Azorius is better at the filtering but worse at the surviving part.

The reason why people on MTGS and other sites are talking about Selesnya is for Elvish Visionary, for Voice of Resurgence, and for Sakura-Tribe Elder. These cards just let you survive and thrive relatively earlier which is important. Azorius decks are struggling right now. Even Jeskai Nahiri which is a very good deck is struggling right now because relying on 3 and 4 mana answer cards is very clunky and ineffective. Those decks that have adapted and make their plays more quickly are those that are now top of the game.

I don't disagree that Azorius is very good, but my argument is "not right now". "Not in these specific conditions". Of course Court Hussar is better overall than Elvish Visionary at filtering. But if you want to not be dead on turn 3 then you're probably going to want to take the card you have a higher likelihood of being able to actually cast haha.

I don't die to fast aggro, so I don't even know what you are arguing at this point.

How do I make myself clearer than I already have a billion times? I don't fucking care about selesnya. Emeria is NOT competitive. If I wanted a real deck, I'd make a different deck. This deck rarely loses early game, and the card draw is less "cute" and more necessary.

Well ChiefBell, the thing is, how are you going to win with green white if you simply cannot have an answer? You want to rely on an early Elvish Visionary to stop infect? The idea is absurd.

You argue that you need to get out an early board presence, which I understand, but what is an early Elvish Visionary going to do against an unblockable Blighted Agent? You need ANSWERS, not outs. You need ANSWERS. You need to be able to stop the turn 3 Death's Shadow swinging for lethal. Not every answer card is 3-4 mana. things like Mortarpod and Aether Spellbomb come out turn 1 and two. They help against many other decks too rather than just the aggro matchup.

As for your argument about how Wrath of God is better than Supreme Verdict, that is silly. Supreme Verdict helps against the Jeskai and Grixis tempo decks running around with counterspells. Counterspells are still a thing. And, Thrun, the Last Troll is a one of sideboard card in jund, not a maindeck card, so the thought of Wrath of God being better currently is laughable. U/W sun titan has access to cards like Detention Sphere which provide the turn 3 ANSWER to the aggro matchup.

To take care of infect, things like Aether Spellbomb and Mortarpod help much better than an Elvish Visionary. They provide an ANSWER instead of an unreliable out. Having outs like Elvish Visionary and Voice of Resurgence make the deck way worse than having actual solid ANSWERS. Things like an early Snapcaster Mage are so valuable, adding blue gives you such a good card.

I would rather have Snapcaster Mage in a recursion deck like this than a Voice of Resurgence. Snapcaster Mage is better against the aggro matchup than voice of resurgence is because it gives you an instant speed blocker, and also recurs ANSWER cards like Path to Exile.

the owner of this deck said this is not an optimal blue white list, he has admitted it himself. Titan decks have to run blue for all the answer cards. a turn 3 Detention Sphere is very easy to get in a blue white deck. and yes, you can run Oblivion Ring in green white, but that is obviously strictly worse.

An optimal Sun titan deck is a U/W deck that runs a low creature count, and has many many ANSWERS. A very good list, though outdated, would be the list Michael Segal piloted. it ran answer cards and a low creature count, and it was able to do well in a meta game that is VERY VERY similar to the one we have currently. If you want to look at it, look at the link I posted earlier.

All these comments are making me seriously question why I'm even using this site. Maybe the users on mtg Goldfish can actually read more than a few paragraphs and comprehend things better?

bvowles - I was kind of talking to the other dude and having a theory discussion, not attacking this list of 75 here.

bah-bammmm - You're presenting a false dichotomy. I still run all the answer cards run here. More in fact actually because I also run another wrath and have access to O-ring as mentioned instead of the sphere. I run those AND early blockers too. Your argument assumes the choice is between answers and creatures. It's not. You can have both. I've seen Segal's list. It's very different. The meta of the 2015 GP in which he did notably well was noticeably different (see all the slow midrange decks in there?). Your assessments for both metas are way off, i.e. this one now and that one then, for example Grixis barely exists anymore but was huge then.

I mean I came in here to have an interesting discussion about the two decks. I wasn't attacking this deck in particular - I just wanted to have a chat about it all. Because previous comments had said that the GW version is trash and it's obviously not; it's actually getting a lot of exposure because it has something to offer. I wanted to have a genuine discussion about it all and I think you're getting very defensive over the comments made as if they're personal attacks instead of generic observations. I didn't really mean that? I kind of just wanted to have a discussion about it.....

ChiefBell, if you wanted to have a discussion on g/w Emeria, then comment on a g/w Emeria deck. These decks are very different, and basically this thread has turned into 30+ comments of people attacking my list and saying it's shit. I'm tired of it. Sorry if you took offense, or if I seem too defensive, but I've had to be because no one seems to care about the fact that I want to play a deck, how I actually want to fucking play a deck, and for some reason this concept seems impossible for everyone to understand!

You'd think that I butchered a Jund list, and stated that I clearly wanted to go pro with it judging by all of these comments! Sorry for any perceived aggression.

I don't think the g/w Emeria deck is bad, I really don't. It just plays differently, and I don't care for that difference in play style. That's literally all it boils down to for me. I'd rather lose playing a fun deck that I actually like and feel as though I've had at least some hand in making it "mine" than net deck some list because I think it will give me a better chance of winning. I don't have fun playing other peoples decks in Magic, and I especially would never play a deck for competitive reasons over a deck that is actually fun to me.

Mate I'm not even saying your list is shit.

I honestly think if G/W was better, ChiefBell, it would have put down more results overall.

Wow. This thread got busy. Seriously hope everyone is chill now...

U/W and U/G Emeria really are dependent on circumstance. They are both effective decks.

1. U/W plays off U's control shell, with counters and more dependent on White's removal.

2. G/W plays off G's proactive approach, pressuring opponents to make them answer your threats with their turns, or out-valuing their creatures because you are Green.

These examples just play off the color pie. Proactive decks and Control decks have both won at GP and Pro Tour levels. Saying either one 'can't' is really stupid. So is comparing Verdict to Wrath. Neither is better. Most U/W control lists split the difference and run both. Of course it's metadependant which one performs better. At their core, they are both 4 mana Wraths. Each has an additional upside. Which upside is most relevant, depends on the boardstate and meta. The correct answer is to run both.

There is no denying that you "gain value" for reviving a Snapcaster Mage or Voice of Resurgence. They both generate a ton of value. They are both on the "Best 2 drops ever printed in Magic" list. Again, comparing these is stupid. They both generate value, they both have a place in competitive Modern. Both are worth bringing back with Emeria/Titan. It depends on the colors of the deck. No U/W control list worth it's salt will intentionally not run Snapcaster Mage, and no proactive creature strategy in G/W is going to ignore Voice of Resurgence.

If you want to compare the lists to Modern, compare them by matchups, and frequency of those matchups. Also, this thread is not the place to discuss because the OP already decided what they want to run. @bvowles sorry for the drama on your thread mate.

Now, I'd like to try to offer something constructive to what you are actually intending to run/build here...

As I mentioned once before, you run a lot of Emeria. A lot of lists prefer only 2 to increase the odds of having 7 plans by the time they have 8 lands in play. More Emeria water's down the Plains Density of the deck. By the time you have seen 8 land drops, you are likely to have seen at least 1 Emeria already, a 2nd one isn't necessary. If they Ghost Quarter/Fulminator Mage it, Sun Titan can bring it back.

Kami feels like a sideboard card in all honesty. If you were to trim some of your creature redundancy for Serum Visions, you would increase the odds of seeing them in exchange for taking the slots out of your deck. However, you will also lower your overall mana curve and allow you to cast more spells more frequently. As mentioned earlier, Modern can be an aggressive format. Spending your turns making more plays is often better than waiting to react to everything. Even control decks try to be proactive, even if it's just setting up landdrops, or drawing cards.

Cutting another Emeria isn't really an option for me in my eyes. I've played with less than 3, and all I could think about was "wow, if I only had one more." They get gq'ed, tec edged, etc. all the time. Only having two means you might as well not run it, at least from my play testing experiences. I've not had a problem getting the necessary plains as I go between the pilgrim's eyes and fetches.

I've seen arguments against using Serum visions in this deck, but I've always been interested in testing it out here anyway. I personally like it, and think it can help move things along early game.

Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge shouldn't be relevant to Emeria. You run Sun Titan. If they blow it up, just replay it. Isn't that the entire point/concept of the deck and it's entire focus? Why is that a problem?

Another worry was not seeing any before the game was over. Between the Serums, hussars, the card draw, etc. I guess it wouldn't be too bad.

I have been testing Deputy of Acquittals. It seems like pure value and it can protect from targeted removal.

Yeah, I only really care about keeping Sun Titan or Celestial Colonnade so I could see running one again main board. I'd tried multiple before, and more than x2 seemed a little too much. This isn't really a mid range deck, I want to wipe the board and only really care about beating down with Titan and Colonnade. I usually just see the creatures more as sorcery speed spells rather than using them to win. Board wiping multiple times and extending the game to the late game is definitely the priority. I keep going back and forth on Deputy of Acquittals or Aether Spellbomb. They both can be recurred with Titan/Emeria/Phantasmal Image, Spellbomb is cheaper while also allowing cycling but Deputy can block/attack so I guess it depends.