I don't know if you're aware of this, but Body Double doesn't work if you want to copy an untapper and pod into Great Oak Guardian or Woodland Bellower to untap and pod into Hulk. This is because Body Double copies the CMC of whatever it copies, so it does not retain the CMC of 5.

yes DiverDown I know that Body Double also copies the mana cost of the creature you hit with it in the graveyard, but that is why we have Tidewater Minion . this is our untapper to get us in the next line of the chain, as long as we have Thousand-Year Elixir or Lightning Greaves . And I apologize for the lack of information about the combo and of the deck, I am going to be editing the description so it fits with all of the other competitive decks and had tabs for descriptions of certain areas of the deck. I spent lots of time brewing this and I felt like combining Protean Hulk and the Deadeye Navigator Combos were the best way to assure that you can win. If you draw into the pieces of one combo, just do the other. Thanks for the feedback though, I had no idea how mucht his deck will be appreciated, but it can consistently win turn 4, and if the cards allow, turn 3

Oh, I know very well how the pod line works. I've spent countless hours and tore out a lot of hair trying to figure out the most efficient way of assembling a chain to Hulk myself and it just hasn't worked in my favor at all because there isn't a great ETB untapper at 5 CMC. Tidewater Minion is fine. Chakram Retriever and Disciple of the Ring feel a little less conditional to me since they don't require a haste enabler, but they still aren't great.

ah, i see you are another man/woman of culture DiverDown. I love this deck type so much and I love Prime Speaker Vannifar . I am currently making the description nicer and would love to see this deck get put into the competitive tier list. That would make my day. This is the first Competitive deck I've brewed where I came up with lots of the combos and choices myself. All of the good ideas are taken so far, and I know that other people have found the combos I have, but no one has combined them for a more efficient deck yet. That's where I came in. Also, you seem to be a cool dude and I would love it if we could be friends and discuss decks and new ideas and stuff. you agree?

I found out very quickly that Vannifar doesn't really fit my preference in playstyle, but I can't deny her viability in cEDH. I've seen lots of cEDH cores for Vannifar Pod Hulk, but there's no surefire or singular route to achieve the Hulk line. I'm always happy to lend a hand and help in terms of optimizing cEDH lists if I can though.

So currently there is a lot of interest in pod-cEDH. I spent a few weekends brewing & quickly grew tired of trying to calculate which 1-drop creature I could use to polish off a 5+ card flash-hulk chain. I had a slew of ideas and many attempts to find the right line & then I quit.

I like complex lines & unique styles of play that aren't 'punch with tymna&dorks, Draw a win' (even though it's actually just stupidly strong). Vannifar is unlike Gitrog - where usually every single card is worthwhile and has a place in the loop. In Vannifar currently a fifth of the deck is just dead cards. That's 1/5 cards sucking to draw, with only Brainstorm & Whirlpool Drake (by the way - this is a SPICY include - nice one) to fix that.

It's down to the Vannifar community (and that includes you now) to hunt for a way to make pod decent in cEDH, as I believe that there's a great combo out there in simic that can be achieved.

I agree with CyborgAeon here. Ezuri Sage is not a very condensed combo by any means, but it's the best Simic can do to win on the spot the turn Hulk dies. The pod chain introduces a lot of dead cards, but I've seen some Spellseeker lines that can grab both Summoner's Pact and Flash which appears to be more condensed and favorable for a a sort of turbo flash hulk. Now I don't recall where I've seen the Spellseeker line, but I think you're supposed to blink it or something to double up on its ETB. Not sure though, I haven't worked on Vannifar in a long time haha.

CyborgAeon I thank you for your feedback, and I do think your logic is valid and there are a couple dead draws, however the reason I decided to combine the two combos is because no matter what way you build Prime Speaker Vannifar you always have the the chance of drawing your combo pieces, and then if you can't search for anything you lose on the spot. I decided to combine these combos to make it easier just in case yo DO draw some of your combo pieces, every single Vannifar deck that I have found suffers from the issue mine does not, besides, in cEDH Food Chain General Tazri suffers from lots of dead cards, but it just wins when it can play its commander and just win. the same goes for here. I thank you for the feedback though

With regard to spellseeker lines - I personally came up with a vannifar viable line that seemed reasonable to me: HASTE REQUIRED. But generally a vannifar deck seems to run TYE, so... let's assume it's on board. You land spellseeker - getting Revitalize / Early Harvest / Dramatic Reversal (whatever spell you choose to run - to the same effect that you only need to be mana neutral), with Fanny-fart on board & pod her into Elite Arcanist . Exile that spell beneath arcanist and then you have the complete viability to actually find a win condition via pod'ing dorks into any Prodigal Sorcerer type effect; even Pirate Ship (if you had a spare 4 drop creature lying around).

Conversely it's arguably less strong, but via flash-hulk you can win with only a 4-5 card combo in simic, but you'd have to perform the flash-hulk in an opponent's end-step, before you untap (or conversely it requires a haste enabler which isn't tutorable from flash hulk in simic yet).

CONVERSELY! If you want to be fancy - you can always pod your way into Magus of the Mind & just meme the whole table by flipping your deck and sliding it across your playmat like a true simic player.

Yeah, the thing is with your spellseeker line of combo you do not have the capability to do this earlier than the hulk combo that I have, because you need even more mana lying around, meaning this does not win as quickly, however i will consider tutorable untaps with Spellseeker

Yes, Deathfeather1321. You're quite right. But as I explained: it's a pod line that is synergistic and works as a backup to the hulk line. Whereas your hulk line requires the following: Vannifar on board, 4 mana, dorks & all the pieces necessary still in your deck, using over 10 cards? That's not efficient and will only mean your deck will be less competitively viable.

Whereas the spellseeker line doesn't need vannifar, can be used with Isochron Scepter , it is synergistic and slot efficient while also providing flexible slots as in all other scenarios - those untap effects can be rituals & don't need to be used for combo.

Vannifar is currently not competitive due to people playing bad chains and thinking it's consistent.

What happens if Ezuri is in your opening hand along with flash? What if you have flash in your opening hand & worldly tutor? So you think you're easily going to cruise into a t1/2 win? Oh wait! Wheel of Fortune ! Noooo... and now your deck has to revolve around vannifar. That is bad and a very real risk you run in this pod build, even if there is a line to get to hulk & sac him...

Look, I'm only trying to help empower you to do better and be smart. If you play cEDH often you'll know how frustrating it is to have one of your pieces in hand, or that one piece is in exile and your loop can't complete.

Try looking into some more creative hulk lines / pod lines. Your current approach is fine. But competitive decks require consistency that a build with 20 cards dedicated to the combo just can't support. You need interchangable pieces, backup plans & a slot efficient strategy.

Not going to lie, this is kind of frustrating. I really do think that Prime Speaker Vannifar is competitive capable and I have done lots of playtesting with this and it CONSISTENTLY wins turn 4 and sometimes turn 3. The drawing of combo pieces is kind of a big deal, but no matter what you draw, as long as you hit 3 lands and at least 1 other source for mana, and you are able to combo off with 1 creature on board. I see where there would be questions on how this deck would be competitive or not. But even if you do not combo off on time, you have many counterspells and cheap removal options to disrupt the other players at the table. I ask what other competitive decks have that this deck does not. Because the main things that competitive decks do are: tutor, combo, ramp, disrupt. This deck does all of these things, It just looks clunky. Yidris, Tazri, even Yisan. They all do their own thing and tutor to combo and abuse an infinite combo or Doomsday . Other competitive decks do this as well. Everything in max power on the tier list does that. This deck just does it a slightly different way and I do not believe that it is a bad thing. I will look back over at the deck for final revisions and substitutes to get rid of some dead cards and increase consistency, but I beg to differ. I believe this deck is Maximum power after playing it a bit. I hope you and anyone else in question, can come to the same conclusion.

Hey man, I like that you believe in this and I'm not out to hurt your opinion. This deck is probably spicy af in the field & yeah, I can see that it snowballs out into a win hella fast. I'll see if I can put this together & I'll tell you the results vs some different cEDH pods (hehe, Pods).

I'll see if I can test it a little tonight too. Some goldfishing & 1v1 against other example decks.

Could you do me a favor and show the change log? Maybe even include a little section in the description?

Thanks for understanding - it's common that decks work disgustingly well in a vacuum like godo, but a lot of the time in testing we miss a lot of key factors.

I think this deck could be slimmed down a bit more. Pm me? Rly laggy typing in comments for some reason.

Yeah, no problem guys, and thanks for helping out the deck and testing it.

I think having multiple combos is really bad, since there are already a lot of deck slots dedicated to chaining. I also am strongly opposed to Trophy Mage lines because they require too much mana.

I think having both 3 drop starters is a good thing, because redundancy, especially in a deck that isn't really in good colors to recur anything too often. I do prefer the spellseeker lines as well since it costs GG instead of 4 [seeker to grab vitalize->hippo->any scrivener reprint...], but trophy is good since it can grab umbral mantle, which let's you be way more fluid with your lines if need be. Her color combo and not having haste is what really holds her back imo. She will just need more brewing and testing to be solved.

I dont run Scrivener stuff I run Spellseeker and Archaemancer. You'd be surprised of their utility outside of untaps. I have a lot of redundancy though.

What 5 drop do you fetch to untap her though, and what finisher? PM me so we dont clutter his page.

So... this list appears to be a variant of mine, Dango, and most importantly Soren841's list Chain Hulk - Vannifar Flash Hulk, at least for the use of the Archetype/Pod pile.

It uses my Trophy Mage line, and my Elite Arcanist line, so I can respect that, but because of the inclusion of the older dead-eye line in the list too, rather than honing in on one, you only can fit in 14 actual answers ( Mystical Tutor , Worldly Tutor , Savage Summoning , Autumn's Veil , and Summoner's Pact aren't interaction), compared to 15 from Soren's list, this seems pretty good, however when you look at what else is missing, you run a ton less card selection, efficient ramp, and your combos actually take more mana.

This is because you use my Trophy Mage line. It is card efficient (very much so in my variant, which uses that line on its own, without cluttering it like yours), but costs a lot of mana to use, requiring a higher land count and cards like Carpet of Flowers , Exploration , Devoted Druid , etc.

My question is what does this do differently that makes it as good?

Well all our interaction is first and foremost defensive so I actually have 19 pieces of interaction :c

As well as the importance of having multiple ways to win, in case one combo gets disrupted, or we draw it. You hone in on one combo, okay sure. how will you win if it gets stopped or you draw into the pieces? I considered Carpet of Flowers but it hinders on the fact your opponents have to have islands, but I guess a lot of competitive decks run blue, worth looking into, but not a creature, so you cannot start the chain off of it. Exploration was never a consideration of mine, and it still isn't because we need mana dorks I only run enough lands to see just enough per game. The Devoted Druid is actually decent. I legitimately considered this one when making cuts, but I feel it falls a little bit short of Bloom Tender and Priest of Titania but it is another card I may incorporate one day.

All pieces of Ezuri Hulk can be cast and win from there, no problem. Having multiple combos dilutes the deck and makes it more likely that you will draw something you can't cast. Carpet is a staple for a reason, while Devoted Druid and Bloom Tender are both bad in Vannifar. Exploration is decent but not in a deck with low land counts. Day's Undoing is also very bad.

I just wanted to ask, why did you include days undoing?