So today during play testing, i had a hand i think of 3 karoo lands, a cobra, summer bloom and Thrun, is that a keepable hand for you? or an auto mulligan?

Mulligan. even if thrun was a Primeval Titan I'd still mulligan, because I've kept hands like that and drew nothing for 5+ turns. I'd rather take a slightly less powerful hand where I can do something more than draw, pass.

okay, its those hands where im like wow, all i need is 1 more piece like an Amulet of Vigor or something, now i think like you said, this deck is close to tier 1, ive beat UWR control easily now we can go grindy, and quick. Do you think 25 mana is the right amount? i know some builds (that include hive mind however) include about 27 lands, but we also in this build have Lotus Cobra Ancient Stirrings and Courser of Kruphix

Yeah, I do. I've tested all kinds of different amounts, and 25 seems like the best overall. The builds running so many lands also run cantrips and Simian Spirit Guide in the other slots. Basically, all they try to do is get to 6 mana as fast as possible and hope they can win with it. I actually cut a land when siding sometimes (Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion or Cavern of Souls usually) if I need the room (that's a little more aggressive siding, since it can hurt the opening hand).

But anyway, yes, I've found 25 lands to be the optimal amount for the build. Adding more has a tendency to flood pretty badly, and any less kills your opening hands. I ran 26 for a while, and would always cut a land when siding. It just made more sense to use its slot for something more useful when I added Manamorphose to address Blood Moon allowing me to cut the third Forest that was previously necessary to combat it.

I'm pretty excited about the new Garruk, looks pretty promising. I'm just not sure if I will be able to fit him in anywhere. I'll definitely try him out though, that's for sure.

I do like him, just dont think he fits well here, the only thing id see him be viable for is his beast production, but at this time, if u have 7 mana you want to cast a titan/wurm or something else

Yeah, I don't think he'll make the cut, but I'm still going to test it.

Honestly, no planeswalkers have been jaw dropping enough for inclusion in here, since they basically need to be able to protect me/themselves and have some built in removal to be worthy of a slot in here. This planeswalker is the only one that meets that criteria so far, but realistically, he would need to be around 5 CMC to make the cut, and that would be an OP planeswalker.

I just like the idea of planeswalkers, since they can continuously generate advantage if utilized correctly.

Yeah i agree with you, planeswalkers do alot, but for this build, i cant see any fitting maybe the only one would be Garruk Wildspeaker

So after watching you play, i noticed how you couldve gotten a titan quicker but went the safer route, with Summoner's Pact you got Azusa, Lost but Seeking then were able to play more lands etc, i think thats obvioulsy smarter, when i play i am sometimes to aggressive in wanting to land the titan asap.

Yes, if you aren't in a losing position, it is almost always better to take the safer route. Hell, I pass on plays that can literally win the game right there, if I have a safer option usually (fetching Tolaria West when I have nothing in hand, instead of Slayer's then Sunhome, for example). If you get path'd when you fetch slayer's and boros, you aren't getting any other lands, and your hand of nothing won't help you when you're in topdeck mode.

I generally play around cards people can have, like even in the game you watched, I didn't play my Spellskite I had from my opening hand because I felt he sided in artifact removal and mulligan'd to it. I'll never know if that was the correct play or not, because they never revealed hand, but I felt it probably was, even though it allowed them to go crazy with their auras.

So heres another example question, i drew a hand of Lotus Cobra Glittering Wish Cavern of Souls 3x Selesnya Sanctuary and Spellskite to you, is that a keepable hand? if so why?

That one depends on the match. If glittering wish or spellskite aren't hosers, then I'd probably mulligan. If you were facing twin, infect, affinity, etc. I'd keep the hand.

Yeah i understand, i just blehhhh. Somedays play testing i get so close to purchasing the other cards i need and sleeving it up, then other days im like this frustrates me alot for some reason

Well, yeah in that case you don't have any acceleration other than cobra, so you are just playing as a really slow build with tapped lands. Hope that helps to explain why it isn't that keepable.

Hey barry so last night i thought, lemme see how this runs without Glittering Wish and even though its one of my favorite cards in the deck, so i upped the Ancient Stirrings count to 4. The consistency of running 4 Ancient Stirrings helps alot, if i dont have a amulet in hand i usually get one from the Ancient Stirrings and ive been doing alot better, now do you think there is anyway to make the stirrings count 4 and keep the Glittering Wish ?

Yeah, you can always cut Spellskite or Manamorphose I guess. I've used 3-4 Ancient Stirrings before, and just wasn't the biggest fan of it. When you start getting multiples in your opening hand, it hurts. You also need an untapped green source for that to be the turn 1 play, when there's only 5 of them in the deck, 7 if you include Mosswort Bridge which comes in tapped. I just found they gave me false hope to make a bad hand into something good, and it hurt my overall performance because of it.

My advise is to treat them as lands when considering your hand, because you won't always find an Amulet of Vigor in the top 5 cards (which really hurts!). In fact, statistically, the odds of there being an Amulet of Vigor in the top 5 cards when there isn't one in your opening hand is 33.5%-34%, depending on if you were on the play or not (without mulligans, your odds decrease slightly with each mulligan). On that same note, there is about a 3% chance that there isn't even a colorless card in the top 5 cards. If it works for you, go for it, but that is just what I've found through my testing, with some numbers to exemplify why.

I prefer to use them as filters for Courser of Kruphix to find land drops from my deck, or to dig up green bounce lands when needed (slightly better odds than 50% depending on how late the game has gone - close to 60% sometimes).

I've tried to balance things as best I can number wise for the most "statistically probable" solid hands. If you want to go with 4 Ancient Stirrings I suggest adding in Tooth and Nail also, as it will greatly increase your odds at turn 2-3 wins, but overall, hurt your amount of keepable openers.

hmm you do make good points, ill just have to do more testings.. thanks as always

Thought id let ya know i finally decided to order the cards for this that i didnt have and sleeve it up! I did go back to the glittering wish package :) with almost your exact sideboard

What's different? Fiery Justice is the main one I'd look at replacing, but I haven't found anything for its slot yet. Everything I've tried is too high of a CMC or just as difficult to cast as far as colors go. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll find something for its slot unless something is printed in the near future, so I'll just have to live with it.

Good luck with the deck, hope it treats you well.

I playtested with Fiery Justice and i actually found it quite useful, kills aggro pretty quick and i dont think 5 life is to much of a gain because of all the fetches/shocks other players take

Yeah, it does, it's just that sometimes the red is hard to pay for along with another non-green color (main reason I'd like to replace it, same reason I sometimes question Slaughter Games and its usefulness). What's different about the sideboard though? I'd like to know, especially if it's a card I haven't considered yet.

well i know we have some answers to Blood Moon so i added in 2x Seal of Primordium also, i added in Bojuka Bog as a single copy to possibly fetch with mr titan to fight living end, dredgevine etc.

Oh. I feel there's enough answers to moon as is (basically 5 "answers" to a resolved one, and 6 ways to produce green including cobras). Furthermore, Wheel of Sun and Moon (via wish usually) + Scavenging Ooze (so 7 instances of grave hate mainboard, pacts/wishes + scooze itself) is generally enough against anything graveyard related (in a roundabout way, scooze is fetchable by titan, depends on how desperately you need that hate - that's why creatures with good effects are so powerful in this build). A nice little trick against Living End is Chalice of the Void at 0, especially when it's under a Mosswort Bridge for the surprise factor response.

I ran Bojuka Bog for a bit, but the fact it wasn't instant speed failed miserably against reanimator decks. Actually, speaking of previous choices, I might have to look into Engineered Explosives again, instead of Fiery Justice for that aggro slot, since zoo is becoming a little more popular (a lot of their 1 drops have 3 toughness). It's still generally 3+ mana, but it can be cast with a lot more ease, and is also findable with Ancient Stirrings and Tolaria West so it might be worth considering again with the meta change. If I do cut Fiery Justice for it, this will basically be my initial wishboard before all the recent changes, except one less chalice, and scooze is in the side instead of main now, lmao. It's funny how certain changes tend to lead me back to earlier iterations of the deck.

However, if you feel they are needed in your meta, go for it. Solid hate wins games. I like to use the minimum needed to address problems; because it allows a broader scope, but if certain problems are more prevalent where you play, definitely adjust it accordingly.

Thanks for sharing, and yeah, Seal of Primordium is definitely the best preemptive Blood Moon reponse, since enchantment removal is something red doesn't have access to. That's definitely a solid choice if it becomes a problem for you.

Hey barry, i was wondering on how you do vs hatebears? what do you side in against them etc?