That's my main hesitation as well, I've really never seen it.

Also, Obzedat's Aid. That's my other hesitation.

For me, it's between the haunter and the guildgate. The haunter makes our wall of creatures more effective and helps lessen damage we recieve from flyers seeing as our deck doesn't have a good way to deal with those. The problem is it's another expensive card. On the other hand the gate fixes our mana, activates our gatekeepers and can possibly screw other players out of fixing. This is a tough call.

drafted it once, opponents were not pleased to see it while paired up with my high toughness defenders

The way I see it, our Gatekeepers (and the Haunter itself) have 4 toughness and two of our creatures have 5 toughness (I want another Murmuring Phantasm , only 9 creatures in DGM have 5+ power and only 5 have 6+. We'll shut down most dudes.

Also it pairs with our Abomination to get deathtouch!

Plus if we have this out and Teysa gets on board the opponent might as well scoop on the spot.

I think my vote is going to be for the Guildgate. Mana fixing as well as activating our gatekeepers we already have I think is better then a one of that lowers their creature based damage. I think most of our creatures will be able to at least take the hit if not trade with most of the other creatures around and worst case we have a bomb in Teysa that will screw them over worse then the Haunter when we cast her.

Haunter of Nightveil is actually solid in draft. I have played it and played against it and it's annoying sitting on the opposite side of the table. That said though, I'm feeling a strong pull from Obzedat's Aid , as well as the on-color gate that we need.

This is tough.

Tony, I think you are probably right about the haunter, but I think you are super wrong about the gatekeepers. The green one is arguably the best one we have for our strategy. I'd personally like to see more myself.

My main thing is this: We have invested a lot into the gatekeeper strat. We need more gates to make it consistent. We also need more on color gates to help us colorfix this deck. Let's face it. At this point, we are 4 colors and there is really no going back on that. Can we afford to allow a gate containing 2 of the colors we need to slip through our fingers knowing that we will likely start seeing the gates dry up after this pick?

The argument for Obzedat's Aid is that it's recursion in limited. When you have very few bombs in your deck, being able to re-use one is often times game over for the opponent.

The torturer is much less relevant than it used to be. We have 2 solid win cons without it that will deal damage to the opponent through most defenses. Because of that, I don't even see Hired as an option for this pack.

Haunter of Nightveil is a powerhouse staller. We drop it, they will have trouble finishing us off, especially when we are steadily gaining life off of the gatekeepers. It also makes Profit / Loss much stronger than it already was, which was considerable in the first place.

So, fixing and consistency?

An amazing stall card?

Or play one of our powerful cards again once they deal with it the first time?

Let's debate.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about the gatekeepers but I think our gatekeeper crew is already assembled. 1 of each is fine if we can get some more Deputy of Acquittals imo! better to focus on fleshing out and supporting....

I feel like we need quality dudes over a cool spell like the Aid, something we might not even MD.

Arg reading your reasons for the Haunter are now making me reconsider my choice. We have 6 Gates right now and 5 of those match our colours so far. I would really like another gate or two but I think you are right about the Haunter. In a triple DGM draft he will likely do some work. My only worry is we hit a deck that isnt very creature based and then he doesnt help as much. I'm hoping we can pick up another gate in another pick or two then. So change my vote to Haunter of Nightveil

I will say this: I have had both Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts , and Obzedat's Aid in the same sealed pre-release deck. I won the event. People were rarely able to deal with her once, never twice. The fact that it can also recur unflinching, or one of the gatekeepers once they hit the grave is strong as well. I can't see a world that we don't main deck the card if we pick it up. I'm not throwing my vote behind Obzedat's Aid necessarily, but please don't discount it's power in a limited format.

most limited decks are creature based so I don't think we have to worry about that much!

btw the final creature set up I'd like would be: 3 Deputy of Acquittals , 2 Murmuring Phantasm , Hired Torturer , 1 of each Gatekeepers other than red, Bronzebeak Moa , Haunter of Nightveil , Jelenn Sphinx , Maze Abomination , Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts

spells: Pilfered Plans , Restore the Peace , Unflinching Courage 2 Far / Away , Protect / Serve , Profit / Loss , Debt to the Deathless

then Golgari and Dimir gates, plus maybe another Azorius so we can play that instead of our Izzet gate...

Also, we care very little about haunter on the other side. Annoying yes, game breaking? Probably not. What I don't want, is for us to deal with their bomb, and then they bring it back for us to lose to. Just another thing to consider.

I think in B/W we have pretty much the only bomb

I mean I get that most people will be playing 4 colors or whatever but I feel like there's even a remote chance that we see the Aid again

We can talk about the deck construction later. That's a whole different debate that I think many of us have differing opinions on.

So again, what is more important to us:

Color-fixing, Stalling/supporting, or recursion.

Why?

I'll have to think about it. I think that any of the three would be powerful picks. The gate is not as sexy as the others... but it adds consistency which is huge in limited. The Haunter is probably the smartest choice because of the unique role that it can bring to the deck... but it truly hurts me to pass on a rare that would be so good in this deck, and that is already in our colors.

I'll have to sleep on this one I think. I really want to hear your opinion about what is important to you, to us, and why.

This is the first pick that I have been so torn... makes for a good debate for sure.

Honestly, as great as Aid would be, I feel that between the two Haunter would be better for us. I just can't help but think that if we don't have our bomb, and we're up against creatures that are killing our gatekeepers, getting one back won't help us as much as reducing everything's power on our opponent's side.

now, don't get me wrong, I know that aid is awesome, and it could do wonders in our deck, but I feel that getting the Haunter would be better for us, just so we can stall out a little longer. and as IAmKingTony said, there are very few creatures with 5 power and up in dragon's maze, so I think our survivability would be increased greatly. Even enough to make up for not picking up the gate, actually.

I think my vote goes +1 Haunter of Nightveil

I think I need to throw my support behind Haunter of Nightveil as well

I'll go ahead and agree as well... as much as it kills me to pass the other 2.

I think you made a strong argument for it Tony. Truthfully, any of the 3 would be the right choice on this one.

+1 Haunter of Nightveil

This guy will be the bane of any deck that we drop it against. I think we will enjoy this pick. Plus, it's a guy, and I still feel that we need a few more solid dudes. (I'd just like to see more of them be gatekeepers)

I'd also love to see at least 2 more gates as well... at this point, I don't truly care which ones... just preferably not red. Whatever gates we end up with, we can fix the other colors with more basics of that color... it will work; always does.

I would also say that the Gate, the Aid, and Haunter would all be useful.

I find myself wishing the Haunter would wheel, as I'm pretty sure there's not a chance of Aid wheeling... If that was the case, I would definitely vote for Aid.

As it stands, I don't know how likely wheeling will be, so I'll grudgingly agree the useful creature is probably smarter than the useful reanimation.

+1 Haunter of Nightveil

Damn, I slept in a little too late. Missed the whole debate :/

+1 Haunter of Nightveil

As much as I hate to pas up Aid, Haunter really helps with what we're trying to do here.

Haunter wins!

And go.

why that gate? ugh.

ummm

Yeah Im with you Tony why that gate lol, Well it looks like the options are take a gate that will not likely be fully used or take the Opal Gatekeepers and cross our fingers we see another gate. I think I'd rather have the gate, the gatekeepers seem to keep showing up and we could really use another gate.

How were the early drafts? Did it look like anyone was drafting Gruul? We could take the War Chant as a hate pick if that seems likely.

I'll say the gate, then the gatekeepers, then the War Chant as a hate draft.

War chant would make us pretty irritated... I don't want to see that crap on the other side of the table... that's for sure.

Korozda Gorgon is a beast, but high on the curve. makes them less likely to attack into us though, and we do have an evolve guy so it might be relevant. A solid defender to help us stay alive until we hit our bombs. Great with unflinching too.

The opal is a gatekeeper, and the gate is a crappy gate... but a gate.

Hell, if we get more izzet gates, maybe we should grab the War chant. Seems good after we have locked up the field, lol.

I'd say either gate or Gorgon myself. Thoughts?

War Chant will ruin our life actually, I almost feel like we have to hate draft it

Yeah... you know the argument about how there aren't that many creatures with 5 power and up in dragon's maze? well... war chant increases that number by a TON. If that card hits the table, we'll have trouble.