Watery Grave is already in there :P
If I can find/get a hold of Temple of Deceit , I will definitely be including them.
Omenspeaker is still in my mind. When I quickly put the deck together with pen and paper, it was one of the first cards to come to mind. I will definitely be testing with it.
Other cards I considered over using Shipwreck Singer (which I love not only for its versatility, but for its art and flavor) are:
and after seeing some spoilers,
April 12, 2014 1:19 a.m.
BookBurner says... #3
It is looking nice, but I would either add more creatures (threats) or more killspells such as Far / Away or Devour Flesh . I am not really sure with countering when there are so many fast decks like red burn or auras.
April 19, 2014 11:29 a.m.
id get rid of Psychic Intrusion imo its not worth the nana
April 19, 2014 11:31 a.m.
Bookburner ~ I already have 7 kill spells in the mainboard with 2 more in the side. I don't think I want to run too many more. As for threat worthy creatures, what would you suggest that can keep up with the speed of burn decks?
shadow63 ~ Yes, I admit that most of the time, it probably isn't worth it, and that it would be a better sideboard card, but I'm only running it as a one-of, so, I think I will let it ride in the main for a little longer.
April 19, 2014 2:54 p.m.
shadow63 ~ On second thought, I removed the Psychic Intrusion
in favor of a mainboard Jace, Memory Adept
. You are right in most of the time, intrusion just wasn't worth the cost.
April 19, 2014 9:43 p.m.
At least one aetherling? Mutavault works well in control shells. Elixir of immortality is important to cycle your deck.
April 20, 2014 9:55 p.m.
If at all possible, I want to stay away from AEtherling . If through many more tests, I need him, I'll add him, but reluctantly. Mutavault 's are a little expensive, and will be added as I am able to acquire them. I had a singleton of Elixir of Immortality in here at one point, and wouldn't mind putting it back in here. What would you suggest removing for it, or would adding it to make the deck 61 cards be a bad idea?
April 20, 2014 10:07 p.m.
Probably one omenspeaker. Going from 3 to 4 doesnt reduce the percentage of drawing them by a lot.
April 20, 2014 10:09 p.m.
It is an Idea to play test with. I'll keep it in mind. I do like the scry though :P
April 20, 2014 10:12 p.m.
I'd say use the second Jace, Memory Adept in the mainboard and think about dropping or replacing the Dimir Charm , unless you have a good reason for it? Can you explain Dimir Charm to me? I don't really get why people use it (but if it's good, I'd love to hear an explanation)
April 20, 2014 11:47 p.m.
Dimir charm kills a ton of great creatures in standard. To name a few. Mutavault, nightveil specter and courser of kruphix. Plus all the mana dorks and such.
April 21, 2014 12:03 a.m.
It has become a very versatile card. It hurt me to remove the third from the deck, however. DrFunk27 has got it right. But not only that, it stops troublesome Sorcery spells such as draw engines. It can set up what I can steal with Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
or Nightveil Specter
, screw up a scry set up by my opponent, or, if necessary, set up my next draw.
Adding the second Jace, Memory Adept
I feel would just swamp my deck with Jace's I feel that the second should come in only against the control match up.
April 21, 2014 12:12 a.m.
I guess. You just don't really have any win conditions besides it and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver . You might look into Duskmantle Seer in the sideboard against midrange, but not against aggro
April 21, 2014 12:14 a.m.
Dimir charm is bimonthly underrated. I agree though, you need better win conditions.
April 21, 2014 12:30 a.m.
plebeianglenn says... #18
Dimir control is a tough deck to play in Modern because U/B isn't as well equipped to deal with the most popular Modern deck archetypes than, for example, U/W/x. White contains some of the greatest "hate" cards in Modern - cards that can completely shut down top tier decks like Affinity and Burn.
Like Burn, Dimir control/mill is also vulnerable to Leyline of Sanctity which makes its way into a LOT of sideboards. Luckily, Blue now has access to Kiora's Dismissal , which makes dealing with Leyline much easier.
Modern is fast, with regular turn 2 5 wins. Most of these are going to come via creatures, like Affinity's pumped up Etched Champion + Cranial Plating combo, or RDW's host of high-powered creatures like Vexing Devil and Ash Zealot . You'll need to prevent these using a combination of removal and counterspells.
Some of the best ones in the format for Dimir:
You've already got Hero's Downfall and Dimir Charm , which do a lot of work. Planeswalkers do get played in Modern, so HD should be a 2 or 3-of in your deck. You'll want a sweeper or two, so Damnation would be awesome if you can afford it. Otherwise Black Sun's Zenith does the job.
As far as counters, the mainstays of the Modern scene seem to be:
I would use Psychic Strike for its mill ability and easier mana requirements, and use both Mana Leak and Spell Pierce pretty liberally. Cryptic Command is awesome but EXPEN$IVE.
I feel like your removals and counters should have about an even ratio, but lean towards removal. All they're doing is protecting your planeswalkers while they do work.
Running both Jaces in Modern would be a waste of valuable deck space, especially since you can't have two on the battlefield. Pick either mill or card advantage and choose the appropriate one. Memory Adept can win games on his own, while Architect can slow the game down considerably and allow you to draw into your main win conditions.
If you go the control route, keep in mind that Modern is a format filled with some of the best removal in the game. Omenspeaker and Dakra Mystic will definitely eat a Path to Exile or Lightning Bolt , and there are creatures with better survivability and greater impact on the game. After turn 2, these creatures' ability to defend against attackers diminishes rapidly.
In their place, I'd put in Prognostic Sphinx , who has semi-hexproof and scry 3. Its 5 toughness makes it a good defender and also puts it out of burn range, which is the most popular removal type in Modern. Sphinx can be a potential win-con.
Your Aetherling and planeswalkers are the primary win-con here. I'm on the fence about Lazav, because there are just some decks where he won't be very useful. Against Burn for example, he'll always just be a 3/3 hexproof without evasion.
For other win-cons, you might consider creatures like:
Personally though, I'd rather stick with Aetherling and maybe bump him up to a 2-of.
You can also include Creeping Tar Pit for unblockable damage.
June 13, 2014 4:02 p.m.
Holy mother of posts......plebeianglenn thank you for the in depth advice. I really wasn't expecting that, but appreciate it none the less. For the most part, I agree that I will be tough to play this kind of deck in the modern scene. But since i wont be playing anything higher than FNM I like my chances with it, especially if I can pull out a few wins. Just playing it and being able to win a few matches would be a victory for me. As I am an Aggro player, Playing control is something that I have to learn more. I have to stop being so impulsive and slow down to think. Get to know my opponents decks better.
I do agree that I would be running too many Jace. Just wasn't sure which way to go. I think I'll be sticking with the Memory Adept. There is too many suggestions to hit one-by-one, but I will be taking alot of what you said into consideration.
The only thing, I really like Lazav. I can always side him out when he isn't relevant.
June 13, 2014 5:22 p.m.
Hey, plebeianglenn, I got around to updating the deck to what I'd like it to be more like. Could you give it a look and your thoughts on the new build please?
June 20, 2014 12:24 a.m.
plebeianglenn says... #21
I think this looks pretty good. I like Dimir Charm in here. Heck, I like all the guild charms. They're just so versatile.
Regarding counterspells, you might consider running Spell Snare just because there are so many 2 CMC spells running around Modern.
For removal, you might also look at Smother , which is 2 CMC and has no colour restriction. It doesn't hit everything, but I'd say it hits over 80% of all the most popular creatures run in the format. You'd basically be hitting everything in Jund, RDW, Affinity (minus Etched Champion ), Zoo, UR Aggro, and others.
The sideboard probably needs work, but the best approach to that is to take this to game night and see what your local meta is. I really think Kiora's Dismissal is a must-have. Every mill deck I've seen scoop has done it because of an opening hand Leyline of Sanctity .
You'll also want to think about preparing for RDW/Burn (Tablet of the Guilds ?), Affinity (Hurkyl's Recall ), Pod (Torpor Orb ), Twin Exarch, and UR Storm.
Let me know how playtests go!
BTW, I recreated the most popular Modern mill variant if you want to take a look. It's just a netdeck, but it might give you a point of comparison: Modern Dimir Mill.
June 20, 2014 7:52 a.m.
I like it, and if I were going for straight mill, I'd take a better look at it :p. I do like how this deck is coming along and and love the control aspect in addition to mill. Creates a lot of frustration for my opponent. So far, my favorite interaction I got in play testing, how ever unlikely it is to happen, is to ult Jace, then play another Jace, using his second ability, then ult Ashiok. Hilarious. Watching 30 plus cards being exiled.
June 20, 2014 12:23 p.m.
slovakattack says... #23
Suggestion: If you're going to take this into Modern, try throwing in Inquisition of Kozilek , it gets rid of almost everything relevant in modern- with the exception of Twin and Pod.
Things you will be able to negate with Inquisition of Kozilek : Path to Exile , Oblivion Ring , Journey to Nowhere , Fiend Hunter , Rest in Peace , Lightning Bolt , Anger of the Gods , Remand , Dissolve , Dreadbore , Terminate , Blightning , 80% of all relevant izzet cards, the list goes on and on. It's strictly worse than Thoughtsieze, of course, so if you have the money to drop on that, feel free.
Although if you're going to go the expensive route, throw in 4 Phyrexian Obliterator . They'll be especially useful since your deck has no real hard mills, save for Jace- so it'll be a little slower than you'd like in Modern. Ol' Phrexo, combined with our friend Inquisition of Kozilek /Thoughtsieze guarantees that their feeble attempts to knock your life down will hurt themselves far more than they will you.
Check out my own mill deck if you want: As Your Power Wanes, Mine Grows (although bear in mind that, though I suggested high cost cards, I am not made of money so my deck is a little more budgeted :P)
June 20, 2014 2:15 p.m.
slovakattack says... #24
Also: Good on you, trying to fit Lazav, Dimir Mastermind in a non-EDH deck. He's my favorite card in the game, and I tried with my own mill deck, but it just didn't work out.
June 20, 2014 2:16 p.m.
slovakattack, where would you fit the Inquisition of Kozilek
, and I have 2 Thoughtseize
that may not get shipped out in a trade that I have not received my end of.
I am going to stick away from Phyrexian Obliterator
because of his price tag :O
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind just rocks, I love it, and it's flavor. Still need to find out if I can make him work here, but with the removal, control, and mill in the deck, I'm hoping I can make him finish some games for me.
Your deck is awesome btw.
Seyge says... #1
If you can get your hands on them, the scry mechanic from Temple of Deceit is VERY helpful to reduce some variance, even in two color. The same thing can be said of Watery Grave to help ensure the right mana for color-intensive spells.
Omenspeaker might help with this same issue, to guarantee that you are drawing the right spells to mind control them. Shipwreck Singer , while she has some interesting and flavorful abilities, isn't as good as scrying 2 in my opinion.
April 11, 2014 6:57 p.m.