If I may, Traumatize paired with Duskmantle Guildmage 's first ability is a devastating combo I've noticed. I'm in the process of acquiring the right cards for a Dimir EDH/Commander deck and I love the way this deck looks.

Thanks! I have been considering Traumatize for a while now, one thing that gets me is that it only targets one opponent.

This deck is going to go over an overhaul, I think. I have had some really good feedback over on /r/EDH:

http://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/2k44e9/suggestions_for_a_house_dimir_deck/

If you're looking into a Dimir Deck, I can also recommend these two links for brainstorming:

Budget Lazav Deck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBZfea3KLO4

Lazav Steal Everything: http://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/24p8gp/lasav_stealeverything/

along with mindcrank, if you get the right amount of mana and your opponent has nothing to counter you can win instantly with a duskmantle guildmage and mindcrank, you just have to get one of the abilities to start.

Well in one sentence, what does this deck aim to do? :)

I suppose it is kind of a Dimir-themed Mill/ Toolbox deck. I built it around Lazav to simulate what it would be like to be an operative of House Dimir. I wanted the deck to simulate the missions of the operatives: espionage, sabotage, and assassination.

Espionage is achieved by milling. You can see what cards and strategies your opponents are aiming for. With these secrets (i.e more cards in the graveyard) House Dimir gets stronger (i.e buffing your creatures and providing targets to steal). Another aspect of sedition is camouflage. You want to clone your opponents best creatures for cheaper and use those to your advantage.

Sabotage is also achieved via milling. In the best case, you get rid of some critical threats and combo pieces, stalling their plan and allowing you to make use of those resources with graveyard recursion.

Assassination is achieved by using removal on their creatures, or by slowly driving your opponents mad (e.g. mill). Another aspect of assassination is being able to get in and out without detection, so I use some means of evasion like artifacts and spells to get unblockable creatures. Then I can eliminate an opponent with one or two swings (via poison or buffs).

I really like the flavor of House Dimir, Ravnica being my favorite plane. I just thought a clone deck would allow for lots of versatility and interactivity, e.g. never playing the same way twice. I don't plan on winning all the time, but more is always better than less, you know. I suppose I'd like to shoot for a 50-75% build if I can.

Okay! Let's talk about tool box strategies and mill strategies:

Tool box strategies only work well when you can access all or at least most of your deck. That's why Arcum Dagsson, Captain Sisay, Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, and Karador, Ghost Chieftain are notoriously good toolbox commanders. As it stands, this deck can't be made into a faster tool box deck without a commander that gives you access to all or at least most of your deck. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a commander for that in Dimir.

As for mill, it would be helpful to have a commander that could mill cards as well. My favorite is Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker. By focusing more on the mill aspect, you can make it a more reliable win con. If you're interested, here's my deck for him: MagicalHacker - Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker.

Basically, the thing to remember is that very rarely can you have a deck that is brutal and efficient AND stuck to a theme. The first deck I built when I played magic was a 100-card highlander dimir toolbox deck, and I quickly learned that each card needs to advance a goal that is the defining pursuit of the deck. If you want mill, play cards that help you mill. If you want toolbox, play cards that help you access your library. But more important than the cards you play, make sure your commander does the same.

Hope I was of some help!

Okay, so based on your advice, I think I should focus on more milling. I think I will still keep Lazav as the commander now, because he is cheaper (though troublesomely costed), and because Mirko seems to have a very chumpable body with few ways of punching through.

I may do some swaps as well, but I still want to try and make the theme work, even if vanity comes at the cost of some effectiveness. I will still have fun if I lose half the time if I feel that I really got into the Dimir spirit.

That said, I will probably swap Vampire Hexmage for Paranoid delusions, because it is a recurrable spell, and VHM was mostly for killing counter heavy commanders and planeswalkers (e.g. Xenagos/ Ghave/ SkullBriar)

Neurok Invisimancer may go too in favor of someething more recurrable like Thassa, God of the Sea or Raven Guild Master.yClutch of the Undercity seems really expensive, despite the tutoring, so I'll cut it for Perplex or another cheap counter or mill spell

Visions of Beyond seems a bit weaker than Minds Aglow, and MA has the advantage of flooding my opponents out, too.

I'll probably cut Rise of the Dark Realms because it is too costly, sadly. Even though I've always dreamed of finishing with it. It may get replaced by Szadek, Lord of Secrets- , a bit cheaper, more mill, seems more on flavor, too since he was the former guildmaster.

Baleful Strix could be made into something more useful, like Lore Broker, bonus points for being in Ravnica block.

Might also cut Rite of Replication since I am always tempted to kick it, making it too expensive when there isn't a lot to gain, but I have won with 6 Consuming Aberration, so... If I take it out or Clone, it may be for Bitter Ordeal. Lots to think about. Thank you very much for your help!

No problem! :)

Nice, but no Wight of Precinct Six? +1

Well, I had him for a long time, I keep swapping either Mortivore or Nighthowler for him because of their more inclusive abilities and utility, i.e. regeneration and bestow. If you know a better cut, let me know. Maybe the Strix could go.

Maybe Lore Broker?

That could work. Do you think I'm passing up on card advantage by removing a draw engine? I'm torn. On one hand, the strix can be a draw 1 and rattlesnake, but lore broker is reusable and fixes my hand mid to late game when I need a finisher or combo piece ..

Archivist instead?

I like the reusable wheel effect because it's saved me in games where I bounce a guys board and make him discard all the threats, like an Akroma, a Ruric Thar, a Xenagos, etc. I'll probably cut the Strix or the Broker. Because a cheap 15/15 is always useful.

I think Archivist is too tempting a target for a Staff of Nin or similar effect, easily wipe out and I lose my 4 mana investment. I think there's more important or more durable stuff to fill the 4-6 mana slots. Dimir likes to aggregate value over time. I may cut the Lore Broker because at least the Strix defends me against flyers, something my deck already lacks a lot of.

Hey there! Thanks for taking the time to stop by Lazav Plays With Your Mind (UPDATED 100% FOIL) and have a look! I'm doing my best to make it the top contender for best mill deck on the site! So here's to you and helping me make that happen! +1!

So I'm glad you asked for my help. I've got quite a heavy grip on the idea you've got going here and I'd love to help. This build consists of a combination of two of my favorite play-styles. Mill and Combo. and they both happen to be decks I've built in whole focus. There are a lot of overlapping themes between the two and it takes a lot of diligence to be able to find the fine lines and tune them each accordingly. But have no fear, I definitely see some places where adjustments can be made and the sought after consistency obtained. If you don't mind, I'm going to say my piece about each card type and what I see that could be changed. So without further ado:

Creatures: Of your creatures, there are three that standout as a little shaky to me for reasons that other cards mentioned later will as well.Undercity Informer - requires that you sacrifice a creature, something that you don't want to be doing often. Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker does this guy's job a lot better and what you've done with this card space is trade consistency for utility. This space could better be served as Erebos, God of the Dead. I see you've included the other two Gods in your colors and Erebos shouldn't be any less eligible here. Being able to snuff life gain can be vital when you're strategy shifts from mill to kill either from necessity or for plan. Not to mention, Erebos adds an additional draw engine to your build. The fact that he can become a creature to block everything on the ground and survive is just gravy, and having this option available to you is a clear and concise way to make sure that no white deck gets away with Felidar Sovereign.Hedron Crab - targets a single player and is reliant on landfall. for the same reason, we don't play cards like Jace's Erasure unless we're 100% dedicated to drawing as many cards as possible. This guy is great when you can get him in multiples or abuse him with fetch lands and Crucible of Worlds, a card i would recommend if you were planning on adding more utility to your lands. But as he sits currently, the crab is a little underwhelming. Have you considered Jace's Mindseeker? Oboro, Palace in the Clouds does make this guy better, however. Nighthowler - is reliant upon a specific card type in the graveyard. this means he builds up much slower against decks that play very few creatures like Narset, Bruna, and Uril. The better option here would be to look for cards that synergize better. I see you're running Jace's Archivist and Forced Fruition. have you considered Fate Unraveler, Underworld Dreams, Liliana's Caress, and Megrim? These are just a handful of ways for punishing your opponents for drawing too many cards and they only get better when you force that upon them. To get an eye full of what this strategy can do, have a look at Nekusar Group Slugs. This deck typically cleans house by turn seven if I'm at the Wheel. (All puns intended...)

I'm noticing your clone package and it seems great though you might consider dropping Phyrexian Metamorph and Phantasmal Image to include some better options in spells like Cackling Counterpart which gives the added bonus of flashback for another trigger on that freshly copied Consuming Aberration.

The suggestions above apply to my suggestions for enchantments as well. Animate Dead is just too far left field to be considerable for this strategy and Rhystic Study doesn't draw you as many cards as you'd really like it to. Thiere are many paths on the golden road to card advantage, young grasshopper, the question is, which will you take?

Card advantage is the real value you get from upgrading Undercity Informer into Erebos, God of the Dead. Or Rhystic Study into Sensei's Divining Top. There's a lot of upgrading you can do that, of course, would cost a pretty penny. But that's okay. I'm going to give you a bit of a stream lined look at cards you can play to help further synergize your core strategy and gain the card advantage you're after from the cheapest of spells to the more powerful end game ones that will typically cost you a buck or two.

Sensei's Divining Topis pretty much an auto include for any deck that wants to dig seriously. To be honest, i don't know of a deck that doesn't.

Time Spiral is the cream of the crop wheel spell, and in some cases like Dimir Aqueduct can actually net you extra mana. Even more bang for your buck when you're punishing your opponents for drawing cards. Similarly, cards like Time Reversal and Windfall can be played next Whispering Madness.

Your instant package feels very lackluster as most problems your trying to account for can be done with better cards at sorcery speed. The only cards I would consider keeping are Cyclonic Rift, Psychic Spiral and maybe Crypt Incursion. I might also recommend Hinder and Spell Crumple to be at the core of your counter package as it's easy to wipe someone out after you tuck their general with Hinder and then come out of nowhere like a badass ninja with Tunnel Vision Junktroller serves as an additional combo piece here as well.

"Oh, I'm sorry, did you want your Commander? Here, you can have him back, but it's gonna cost ya. That's right... all the cards."

To round out your instants you should be thinking about effective and cheap ways to keep you winning. Muddle the Mixture counters or searches up something vital like Duskmantle Guildmage and Mindcrank . Other countermagic like Traumatic Visions doubles as mana fixing.

Of your sorcery speed spells, I am pleased. There's a few here that don't quite fit but the rest look great. Firstly, Mind Funeral only targets a single player and copying it is lackluster when you are already playing Mind Grind. If you really require a single target spell, I would much rather play Glimpse the Unthinkable here as it has been clutch to making Lazav some of the scariest creatures in the game. I can't tell you how many games I've rode on the back of Lazav as a copy of Avacyn, Angel of Hope. In my personal experience, Glimpse hits for more cards regularly than Mind Funeral. Mirko Vosk does a better mind funeral and you can copy his trigger with Strionic Resonator. You can copy Sword of Body and Mind with the resonator too.

If I were to make any personal inclusions to your sorcery spells i would say try to fit in at least Increasing Ambition, Diabolic Tutor and Demonic Tutor.Artifacts i would recommend dropping might be Sol Ring and Armillary Sphere for Altar of the Brood and Sensei's Divining Top. Lazav doesn't need Generic mana to cast, so Sol Ring is just kinda dead weight before turn five.Top is just better than Sphere.

Your land is the last bit I wanted to mention. Not because it's not important, but just the opposite. I see that you've got a lot of very good inclusions in cards like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Thespian's Stage. Have you considered Cabal Coffers? Crypt Ghast? Magus of the Coffers? These are easy ways to direct your opponents away from your main strategy and pay close attention o everything on board. These cards are powerhouses because when combined with each other, they make A LOT of mana. Synergy like this MUST be dealt with and it's a cheap expense when you consider that it only takes a card or two extra included to really go over the top and force your opponents' hands prematurely. The best part is when they can't handle this combination and you just run away with all the mana.This is perhaps my favorite part about playing black in the mill strategy as it affords you great mana coverage as well as a great deterrent.

I see that you are running a lot of basic lands. Here's a list of non basics for you to consider:

Creeping Tar Pit

Darkslick Shores

Dimir Aqueduct

Drowned Catacomb

Duskmantle, House of Shadow

Evolving Wilds

Frost Marsh

Halimar Depths

Jwar Isle Refuge

Mana Confluence

Minamo, School at Water's Edge

Maze of Ith

Nephalia Drownyard

Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

Polluted Delta

Reliquary Tower

Shizo, Death's Storehouse

Sunken Ruins

Tainted Isle

Tectonic Edge

Temple of Deceit

Watery Grave

Dismal Backwater

Wasteland

Each of these lands serves as utility in some way. Adding Expedition Map ensures that you get the ever important Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth when you need to turn all of your colorless lands into color. The more lands you play that can add both your colors, the easier time you'll have casting your spells and making sure you can back yourself up.

So that's pretty well what i got this time around. I'm sure I'll have another look at what I've written here and go "I forgot to mention this:" and you'll have another message. :P Let me know what your thoughts are and where you'd like to go with what information i've given. i'd be happy to dig a little deeper into a topic you aren't quite sure about!

I like Lavaz as the commander, Mirko is too narrow and perhaps not as interesting. In your description you mentioned laying traps, so I'm surprised not to see Archive Trap which is a great card and super flavour. I'll mention Glimpse the Unthinkable but guess that it's too expensive for not enough grunt. Shadowmage Infiltrator is a good card draw engine that you can stick a sword on for massive upside. I found Induce Paranoia to be too expensive to sit on the mana until your opponent's turn. I like Psychic Strike better because counterspells should be counter first, mill second - otherwise another mill spell might be better. Muddle the Mixture, Shred Memory and Dimir Infiltrator are all Dimir and are perfect for helping to put the Duskmantle Guildmage + Mindcrank combo together, and are all useful in their own right.

As for clones, my theory is that they are excellent so long as you have good card draw. This is because being cheaper isn't an advantage unless it allows you to cast more spells than your opponent, who is probably going to have more lands than you. Their other spells are going to synergise with the creature most of the time, but because you've stolen it it isn't necessarily going to work as well with your other creatures etc. So the best way to use the clone is to have lots of other cards in your hand, play their creature for cheap and keep going (maybe destroy the creature you just copied!).

Okay! I finally have time to respond! The last two days have been really hectic, with me trying to finish two smaller research papers.

First, responding to NuBByThuMB:

Thank you so much for your comments! I do love mill and combo, and I am doing my best to make this as effective and interactive as I can within the Dimir Theme! I'm shooting for a 50-75% build, but I'm willing to make a few concessions for vanity's sake. Also some cards like Glimpse the Unthinkable and Sensei's Divining Top are a bit outside my budget at the moment because PhD apps are costly and it's Christmas time. Ive just been making do with what I have as I learn about Commander. I've only known about the format for a couple of months now. This is my first deck!

Providing a few justifications for my card choices, which you can feel free to debunk.

Creatures:
Hedron Crab was included as a way to get in some early mill. The same reasoning is actually why Mind Funeral and Undercity Informer ended up in the deck. I have found that if I don't have a few options for early mill, then Lazav just sits around looking ugly until I get to a higher cost mill spell that I can drop. A small creature like Hedron can also chump block a weak creature in the early game if I need. I guess I could cut him for Archive Trap to counter fetch lands and tutors.
Undercity Informer is a nice sac outlet in emergencies, comes out early so I can get my mill on, and I can sac my stuff if it is going to get killed blocking or in a wipe anyway. I'm open to some suggestions of things to replace him. What I struggle with is choosing cards that 'impact the board', because I'm not sure how much 'impact' is required to justify being one of the 99. My solution has been to find spells or effects that I like and try and get them on a creature. The Informer was doubly good because he also fits with my Ravnica/ Dimir theme. If I can find a copy of Erebos around, then I may consider him as a potential add. I know a couple people in my meta play some lifegain shenanigans. But, I'm wary of getting rid of some of my cheaper creatures because my deck is a bit slow and reactive already, I don't want to look too vulnerable early game because I have nothing that size along my mana curve...
Nighthowler was included because early game, like Wight of Precinct Six, he can usually be a 4/4 or a 5/5 with some early mill and defend me pretty well. Late game he is a good buff for any creature that needs it, like a voltron-Lazav strategy. This guy may get traded in for a Fate Unraveler that I have in my trade binder because of the synergy that you mentioned with my wheels
Phantasmal Image has had me on the fence for a while now because of how vulnerable he is. I may follow another suggestion and replace him with Dimir Infiltrator, who can also tutor for some combo pieces. Phyrexian Metamorph is one of my more versatile clones. I'm not sure what I could replace him with that would benefit me as well as he does. I'm sure you have some ideas.

Instants and sorceries

I noticed you said that you were looking into adding some more removal or counters into your deck. Perhaps some of my justifications can convince you of the utility of a few of these options. Or, they are feeble reasons and I should pack something much different.
The spot removal like GftT, Grisly Spectacle and Induce Paranoia are expensive. I could see cuts for at least Induce, because it rarely mills for too much (unless someone plays a Genesis Wave for 30, which is what convinced me to add it. If I take out Induce, it will be for the cheaper Psychic Strike. Grisly Spectacle has just been too reliable at milling for 30+ in the mid to late game because that's when people start swinging with crazy +1/+1'ed beaters. I took a guy out once by killing his own Consuming Aberration. Go for the Throat is included as an early game removal spell when something is threatening me like an early game commander, or when my deck is acting sluggish. Memory Plunder turns any instant or sorcery that I've milled into gold. I've stolen precious removal at desperate times, a kicked Rite of Replication or a Tooth and Nail. And those sorceries are able to be played at instant speed! The benefit of milling is that I can take advantage of the resources that they flip reluctantly into their yard. Cards like Plunder and Animate Dead help me capitalize on those things. Although I do agree that I need more tuck abilities. I just don't have a copy of any of the tuck counters to use for the time being.

If I take out Mind Funeral, It will probably be for my copy of Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, since he is possible able to mill more over his stint on the board. Though I don't know if I will be able to defend him well without many creatures.

misc
Sol Ring will likely become a copy of Strionic Resonator, since you made a good argument for why I don't need it and I ordered a couple copies not long ago.
I don't think I'll get enough permanents hitting the board short of an infinite loop to make Altar of the Brood viable.

I know that areas which I lack are graveyard hate (considering Shred Memory for that) and general mill effectiveness. I try to mitigate this by making good use of the little I am able to mill. I also feel that not going in whole-hog on the mill makes the game more fun for the others in my meta. In that case mill is more of a support strategy (I'd still like for it to be a more feasible wincon in a 4-player game though). One other area that I am less confident is my curve and overall synergy. I would like to be the "win out of nowhere" guy to better simulate the sneakiness of the Dimir. This means I need to have many lines of play available to me, and many of these will be taken from among my opponents' own graves and libraries!

@PayOneLife Thanks for the suggestion of Archive Trap and Psychic Strike! I will be sure to get those when I have the chance! I'm also using your Dimir Infiltrator suggestion in place of another cut suggested above. He was in the deck but was cut for something else.

I had a Grisly Spectacle that I was debating on adding until my carelessness saw it marred to the point of unplayable :/

It regards to your concerns about budget and your early game. Crystal Ball isn't exactly Top, but it definitely can get you there. But you've also gotta be making sure you have enough draw that you can pull stuff off the top when necessary. (Another justification for Erebos).

Have you tried Mesmeric Orb. I just added it and tried 1v1 against a Lazav deck, and holy cow is all I can say. Lazav by turn four, Dimir doppelganger on five, and he was dead turn six to two consuming aberrations. Just nuts. I've seen enough of Altar of the Brood to know for a fact that 87 permanents in deck is plenty enough. Especially when you drop it turn one. It's got plenty enough disruption to put people off, even if it's a land type. And it synergizes with Lazav.

Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is actually my next choice to cut from the build because he doesn't actually mill and he doesn't trigger Lazav. Any incarnation of Jace would be a better option here.

No Clutch of the Undercity?

Honestly, it was in there for a while for flavor/ tutoring and enchantment control, but its cost was just a bit too prohibitive. It was just too much of a strain to keep 4 mana tied up, and there wasn't much at 4CMC worth using a tutor on. If you know of something that could replace it, I'm open to suggestions. However, at the time, I cut it for Into the Roil and eventually that got cut for something else I can't remember anymore.

Well personally I wouldn't be milling in commander. If I was I would try and do it in 1 fell swoop on somebody or pretty even across the group.

I would not run Traumatize, I would definitely run mind funeral. I would not run Whispering Madness because it is too helpful for people. They are going to discard the worst card in their hand, if they can, and replace it with something better most likely. I would rather transmute a clutch of the undercity for my turn getting a rite of replication and passing, than casting a whispering madness.

Since you already have academy ruins. I would run Tormod's Crypt over Crypt Incursion. I would add some way to make everything have flash, usually with Vedalken Orrery, but since you have blue I would run Leyline of Anticipation. Because you are milling you want to do it on their turns and not tap out on yours for it, just to die before next turn possibly. I would try for a Hedron Crab huge landfall activations. I am not sure how I like Archive Trap either, maybe 1v1. Though mind funeral is sort of along those lines. I have seen someone kick a Sadistic Sacrament stealing all their lands, then hitting them with a mind funeral next turn.

Those are just some thoughts, I would probably change a lot more if it were my own. You do what you want though but maybe I helped some.

I play mill as a resource, not as a win condition. It is also run for the theme and flavor of the Dimir. Milling puts cards in the graveyard and therefore reveals their strategies to me giving me a minor information advantage. Plus, against decks without much recursion I can sabotage the deck by hitting key threats. Plus, a well known property of mill is the disproportionate psychological effect of seeing your cards uselessly thrown away despite the limited effect on the board state. For this deck, the psychology actually fits into the theme. I run enough effects that benefit from milling so that milling does have an effect on the board state, which is another common criticism of mill. I know this won't ever be Tier1-2 competitive, if i wanted that I could run several infinite mana combos and use Oona. Sadly, Lazav is a flavor general and not highly competitive, unless you go for super-Voltron, which is just too generic for me. You can strap equipment to any general and hit for 21.

As for the cards, I cut Mind Funeral because it was way too unreliable. It usually is only good for 7-8 cards unless it is late gamer and a player has been land-ramping hard. The most I've ever gotten out of it at once is maybe 20 cards. Also funny that you mention Archive Trap, since that was what replaced Mind Funeral. AT actually reliably hits for 13, and easily punishes deck manipulation and not-direct-to-hand tutors.

Traumatize at least has decent synergy with Duskmantle Guildmage, Keening Stone, Undead Alchemist, and adds lots of triggers for Lazav.

Crypt Incursion gives me life in exchange for eliminating one of my resources. Tormod doesn't offer much aside from "Hey, let's give my Consuming Aberration -20/-20".

Hedron crab has been in the deck for a while, actually. Although I may remove him soon for a more group-oriented mill source like Memory Erosion.

Sadistic Sacrament is a bit too cruel for me to run, especially since I only hit one player. Often resolving a kicked SadSac (apt name) just causes the player to look at me resentfully and I get hated out by the group. It takes away from the fun to single out a single person and effectively cripple their deck. A lot of the time, seeing all of their win-cons in the graveyard at once just makes the player give up. Related to the psychological effect of seeing your favorite cards milled.

Duskmantle Seer used to be a Leyline of Anticipation, he has also been Forced Fruition, Corrupted Conscience and a few other things. Basically He is the one slot I'm never satisfied with, so I just put in Dimir Bob to help reinforce the 'deal with the Devil' aspect of the Dimir mindset.

Regarding milling all at once, there unfortunately aren't many ways to mill 200+ cards in one fell swoop short of Phenax+ Eater, Infinite Sac+Gravecrawler+ Altar of the Brood, Helm of Obedience+Leyline of the Void, Infinite Mana+Mill X spells and those are all too complicated to reliably perform and don't serve many purposes in this deck outside of their respective combos. You will notice that I have a few of the pieces, and one or two combos. I just prefer infinite combo to be a once-in-a-while occurrence because my playgroup wouldn't like me to go infinite every game, and that makes the deck too predictable. Sort of the antithesis of the Dimir. This deck was designed to be adaptable and versatile with lots of clones and stealing so that I have a new play experience each game against each pod/deck. Still, I recognize that winning 'out of nowhere' is also very Dimir, so I am conflicted.

Thanks for your feedback. It has been thought-provoking to read