Thanks for the suggestions! Actually, i always thought szadek to be a bit too slow. He comes out late when there are ample ways of dealing with him, and he dies no damage whatsoever. He's like a super slow Keening Stone.

Nemesis is already in the deck. :)

Hey, so I've been using this setup for a Lazav EDH:Budget Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - EDH / Commander. Could you recommend some budget aquisitions to make your deck more budget-friendly?

Alright, Well, since I've tried to include the best cards which fit my strategy, I guess that which cards you can "budgetify" and which ones you'd still like to have the best possible versions of will depend on what your strategy is. How would you prefer to win? Most Lazav decks either try to win via commander damage (Voltron) or by reanimating/ recurring cards in the graveyard (Mill for Value). Personally, I prefer the latter because you can strap bombs to any commander and send them in. It's not a very original win condition.

A good portion of the value in this deck comes from a fairly small number of cards. Very few cards are worth more than 2-3 dollars. These are cards that I've bought over the course of a year - I definitely had much more budget iterations in the past. For some cuts, I recommend the following:

Demonic Tutor ($15-20) > Diabolic Tutor (.50) More expensive for the same effect

Sword of Body and Mind ($10) > Trepanation Blade (.30) No tokens and less mill, but at least something measurable.

Rise of the Dark Realms ($5) > Life's Finale ($1)

Chromatic Lantern ($5) > Darksteel Ingot or Commander's Sphere (Both .30)

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth] ($10) > Crypt Ghast ($1)

Mesmeric Orb ($5) > Riddlekeeper (1.39). This is the cut that makes me the saddest. In a game where it comes out, it will singlehandedly take out about 25-30 cards per deck before it gets answered. For two mana.

Gilded Lotus ($6) > Druidic Satchel or Mind Stone both (.15-30) These will be much slower than Lotus.

Memory Plunder ($3) > Spelltwine (.20) More expensive, but you can get two spells worth, so technically card advantage.

Jace, Memory Adept ($5) > Dire Undercurrents (.68) No mill, but you do get some draw and some hand disruption

Hedron Crab ($3) > Mindshrieker (.35) I love this little crab and I mainly run him as a pet, but he is good for some early mill as soon as Lazav drops, which I like. Mindshrieker is still kind of okay in a mill deck, and when I ran him i was able to close a game or two when he was suited up with swords and I got a lucky flip or two. I just don't like paying two and hitting a land, which seems to happen too often.

Also, just cut Academy Ruins for an Island and save $10.

With all of these swaps (and removing the foils), you could cut nearly $70 from the deck and still keep it more or less the same, just sacrificing some speed and efficiency. Hope this helps!

I really enjoyed your deck and I will use it as a guide to improve mine. Your comment really helped me. Thank you so much for the attention.

Of course, and thanks for the vote! Have fun!

I love the deck! Granted, I am bias as I am running/tweaking a fairly similar deck to this. I am finding that the deck is pretty weak against artifacts/enchantments since most of the control aspect is creature specific. besides Cyclonic Rift and flat out counter spells, how else would you deal with nasty artifacts once they hit the field? (a few examples are Sphinx-Bone Wand, Aura Shards and Akroma's Memorial)

I know the best plan is to keep them from ever hitting the field, but I didn't know if you had any other thoughts. I am thinking maybe Memnarch could be useful since most EDH decks run a decent number of artifacts, or maybe cards like Reweave or Legerdemain. I know if your description you say that you such things up to other players until late game, but I was curious how this would change if it was 1-on-1.

Would like to hear your thoughts.

Well, unfortunately, the UB color pairing is the weakest at dealing with artifacts and enchantments, so I think you will have to fight fire with fire, as they say.

Good artifact/ permanent removal comes in the form of a Lux Cannon, Spine of Ish Sah, Nevinyrral's Disk.

If you want to do a Voltron thing, Argentum Armor is an option.

Otherwise, you can use Bounce like Into the Roil, Capsize, Clutch of the Undercity (flavor win and tutor).

Being that I mainly play in multiplayer pods, and that often people are playing other colors, I find that I don't actually have to run answers to every single thing. I can play the ploitical game and make some trades. Offer my cheap creature removal to a white player and let them kill that enchantment for me. Win win.

In a duel environment, which i seldom (practically never) play, I guess the answer would be to run some of the options above. However, i suspect that If I were to pack enough removal to succeed with this deck in a very competitive environment, then I wouldn't be able to run even half of the cards that I like to play with for flavor or for fun reasons. Things like Mimic Vat, Mirko, and Nemesis, Rise of the Dark Realms, etc would have to be cut for more answers, which is why I prefer to play with less intention of 'winning' in the traditional sense. The philosophy of this deck is that you are winning as long as you are roleplaying as a Dimir agent, politicking, and planning elaborate schemes then you don't have to come out number one, and I often don't. For that end, so long as you are just kind of skulking about, not seeming overly threatening, then the really bad artifacts won't be pointed at you. However, this assumes that you are willing to play a political game in addition to your cards. The fun part about decks like this is that a lot of the 'deck' isn't i the cards. Many of your best tricksaren't built into the list above, and will consist of convincing or bribing another player to spare you or redirect.

In sum, I think my my answer to your question is this: In a multiplayer environment, don't feel obligated to run ALL of the answers. Those answers can be spread out over three or four decks. In a duel environment, a UB deck will want to run more colorless 'destroy target permanent' options and bounce/ discard. Since most good destruction options available to UB are either expensive or slow, you'll have to be judicious in your use of them.

Thanks for your question. I hope you have fun playing Magic!

Isn't Hinder useless now? Because Cancel has the same cost, however it procs Lazav's ability with creature spells.

Nah, it still tucks a load of other troublesome stuff, so I'll keep it for now.

May use Dissipate eventually. Or a Disdainful Stroke.

On the topic of artifacts, as long as you've got token producers online, Gate to Phyrexia can do a little work

I'd take out Hinder and Dimir Charm for better counterspells.

Also, I think Control Magic can be replaced with Corrupted Conscience. Aside from stealing creatures, it can double as a "surprise" win con if you can get Lazav big enough.

Btw, i've been playtesting the deck several times now. It is pretty fun and strong but you can really make it better/faster by improving your mana base.

Awesome deck. I cannot think of a card that is better than one you already have. For its play-style, this deck looks pretty thought out. Great job, +1!

With all the thought you have put in, cards are seldom overlooked. That said, what are your thoughts on Evil Twin or Undercity Informer?

If you can, please look over my deck Phenax, God of Super Mill(Fs) and post and suggestions you may have. I am trying to get a fun Dimir deck going. Thanks!

Hey all, thanks for the comments and suggestions.

@Silverf1sh, Gate to Phyrexia seems really good. For now my meta seems toned down on the artifacts, and i don't have a lot of token generators. I think I only have the Alchemist, the Sword, and Mimic Vat. A lot of the other creatures I prefer to keep around as blockers for a combat heavy meta, or to utilize their abilities. I can't deny that artifact removal would be useful. So I may eventually cut wither the Vat or the Hexmage for Lux Cannon or the Gate you mentioned. The Lux Cannon is slow, but it also hits enchants. Thanks!

@ Megalomania. I'm glad you playtested and enjoyed the deck. As for land, I have some better lands in my acquire board, but i have been lacking the budget to get those last few. Whenever i can make it to a place to trade, i may try and get a Polluted Delta or a Watery Grave. I like Control Magic because it keeps my curve low. Corrupted Conscience paints a target on me, and I have to wait a full turn to attack with the creature. As for the counters, I still like Dimir Charm because of Flavor reasons. I probably won't ever cut it for that reason alone, it is one of the original thematic cards in the deck, and i have a promo of it. As for Hinder, I will still play with it for now but if i end up not liking it, I will use Dissipate. I haven't really got the budget for a FoW or Mana Drain. I really appreciate the advice, although at this point improving the deck beyond it's current state (especially the counters and mana base) will cost a fair amount.

@gobucks Undercity Informer is not great because you ahve to sacrifice a creature (of which i have few I'd be willing to part with), and that sacrifice usually buys you three cards milled against a single opponent. That makes it slow and costly, compared to my other engines. As for Evil Twin, I did run it for a long time, but I cut it for more card draw, as i just wasn't replenishing my threats fast enough. He is great for sniping a troublesome commander, though. Sure, I'll look at your deck.

Sooooo... you have all this draw power, and nothing in your deck to remove max hand size? That is disturbing.

Haha, thanks for the comment.. I wouldn't necessarily call the lack of draw power 'disturbing', since it stems from two factors, mainly. Firstly, My draw power is not really at the level of consistently drawing 4+ cards each turn. I get small bursts here and there in a long game, sometimes only a couple extra draws per game, (which may be an indication that I may want more draw eventually) but at this point the hand size restriction is never an issue. I rarely have to discard due to having too many cards. If I do, such as with a large Windfall or Minds Aglow, then I typically discard some lands, some cards that aren't relevant to the board state, or some fat creatures i can reanimate. I have purposefully implemented a lot of graveyard interaction to remedy these effects.

The second factor, the lack of a Reliquary Tower for example, is due to the fact that I don't want to pack the number of cards which provide the effect in such quantities that I am guaranteed it every game. By the time I add in Spellbook, the Tower, Library of Leng, etc. I have to take other cards out which I enjoy playing or make the deck run more smoothly than fixing hand size would. By its nature, this deck already has a lot of strings to pull, and another mechanic like hand size manipulation may spread it too thin. This is just the way of the world in multiplayer mill - There aren't a lot of efficient cards, so it takes the combined efforts of a couple strategies (e.g. mill and discard) to make a meaningful dent in 100-card decks. I don't want to dilute it further. Sure, I may cut an island for a Tower some day.

But, adding in any non-essential utility lands for a convenience adds other opportunities for inconvenience to manifest. Drawing a colorless land in my opening hand makes it harder to cast a UUBB general relably on turn 4. Nonbasic land hate like Blood Moon is more effective. So, i try to limit my use of colorless utility lands unless they really make a significant impact, and at this point, hand size is not relevant. You can playtest to see for yourself.

Thanks for the discussion, I always like to discuss my thought process for the decisions I make when deck building. It lets me become more effective in my reasoning and my construction, and people often have a way of showing me a different perspective or weight to the issue.

Also, think of how devastating to myself my Dreamborn Muse would be if i regularly had 10 card hands..

Even if I only add the Tower, my chance of seeing it each 14 turn game is only about 20%, so i can only depend on it one in five games. One in ten if i need it before turn 4. With those odds, I'd rather just not worry so much about it, and discard a few cards now and then. Most players never even use a quarter of their 100 cards in a given game, any way.

I personally think it was a silly suggestion. Unless your deck is built around the concept of drawing a lot of cards, you won't need a Reliquary Tower or any card of that sort. Especially cobsidering the cost of your commander.

I am curious about how Minds Aglow has been working for you. I have it in my maybe board because it has a tendency to do me more harm than good. I also fear I might end up to be the only one paying mana and everyone benefitting from it. Lol

Well, Minds Aglowis an interesting card... People obviously won't pay a lot when they're close to decking, so it's usually only good in the mid game - unless you pay for a huge cast on your own to draw a person out.

In the mid game, it is a good equalizer. Since some people can get nervous as you slowly develop more threatening guys, or if they begin to feel resentment a their library erodes away, then you may appease them with some draw (allowing you more time to scheme). It can be good to buy yourself some favor. If you or someone else is in topdeck mode, they can appreciate the boost, and may help you later.

The Dimir can also be devious, however. Ever seen a player invest heavy into your Minds Aglow to find their combo piece, then you follow up with a Windfall. Priceless. Just goes to show you that the Dimir are masters of exploiting greed.

So, all of that to say that I like it. It's versatile. It's political. It can lead to some fun, misleading play lines. But as with all mass draw spells, sometimes you accidentally help other people more than yourself.

Thanks. Although being the notorious combo player of the group, I honestly don't expect to be able to buy anyone with "favors". Lol.

The card has awesome potential and I could really use cheap draw spells. I'm just not sure if I can risk letting my opponent's draw that many cards (the number of removals and disruption in my playgroup is quite large) especially since it is a sorcery. Damn it. Well thanks. Will need to think about it more.

Btw, I just saw someone with a Lazav deck use Sakashima the Impostor to essentially have 2 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre in play. You might want to try it.

Huh, maybe it was just me. I was just perusing the list and seemed like there were a lot of draw effects to me. It was just a suggestion, but if it's not problem, then it doesn't need to be fixed.

Dark Depths? since you already have Vampire Hexmage and Thespian's Stage