I love it, because unlike a normal troll, who comes in and curses a bunch, or like a sour person who gives a bunch of BS reasons, he just gets straight to the point.

I mean, it is so dang classy... I am going to have to honor this great user, Kiyomei the Saint.

Overall I think that this list is quite useful, however I would provide some feedback.

I don't think it's as clean cut as just choosing your archetype and then choosing your win condition from that. In magic, regardless of the format (with some exceptions), you will always have the triangle of Aggro, Combo and Control. Ultimately there are two ways of winning a game in Magic, either beatdown or combo (short of a few "I win" cards which can still be classified as combo I guess). So the triangle becomes Aggro, Combo and Control:Aggro/Combo.

Stax and Control are two different categories, you're correct, however they both fall under the overarching Control parent category. They are both permission based in that they try to take permissions away from a player. In the case of stereotypical control, it's a reactive strategy where you counter/remove threats and in the case of stax, it's just proactive control - trying to starve your opponent of resources before they can play them/threats.

But saying that Aggro is not an archetype is incorrect. It may be under-represented, however it still exists.

There are definitely some blurred lines here, but it's important to represent the category. You can have a deck which runs counterspells, but is still fundamentally a combo deck, not a control deck. you can have a control deck that runs aggro as it's win condition. Sure, it's not typically going to be very good, but you can still do it. Control Voltron decks are a thing after all. While not as optimised as Doomsday Zur, you can and do see control/Stax Zur beatdown lists. And decks like Edric, Spymaster of Trest are legitimate aggro decks. Yes they run counterspells, but it's in the same way that a Yidris Storm deck runs them - to help protect the deck's strategy.

On top of this, with a decent chunk of stax decks, the primary win condition is actually beatdown. This is because they prey on the fact that most cEDH decks are not very creature heavy (dorks aside) and so are designed to punish "spell" heavy decks. Asymmetric cards like Linvala, Keeper of Silence definitely help, but most stax decks will rely on creatures to do most of the work.

The other piece of feedback that I would provide is that it's important that you don't turn this into a "List of Staple cEDH Cards". You have some really good advice about card selection and while you can provide some examples, I would recommend actually keeping these to a minimum. The reason for this is that you're better off talking about the why and then letting people decide for themselves if a card is a good fit. Harmonize can be really decent draw in a mono green deck when you can cast it turn two with no issues. Hell, I run Eidolon of Blossoms in my Saffi Eriksdotter deck and while no, it's not the most comeptitive list it still does pretty well. And Eidolon at fist glimpse might seem bad, but is actually a powerhouse. We see cards like Sire Of Insanity at the top end of Blood Pod lists. Definitively saying a card is or isn't cEDH worth stifles creatively and leads to stagnant lists, which flies completely in the face of what this primer is about. I really think for lists like this it's worth applying the "teach a man to fish" strategy. I get that sometimes it's more work to write as you have to explain the why, but it yields much better results.

On the whole though, the primer is good and I hope my advice helps.

Yes, the true terms for the control I specified are "Permission" and "Stax", the reason I separate them is because the point of this isn't to delve into the technical theory behind gameplay, instead I want to be able to build a base for any player trying to make a cEDH deck. I can build up a deck with extreme ease if I know three things:

• The Colors of the deck (The Commander)

• The Base to use (The Archetype)

• The Win Condition (The Combo)

I can build up any commander deck using those 3 things in mind, and I built up plenty of examples for them. I went over cEDH staples because I wanted to show the type of cards you should be interested in, though there are tons more than I said.

You mention countermagic in combo decks, but I suggested that if you look at "So, How do I Build Combo?", so I don't think I ever disagreed there. I also wen't over beatdown in stax, it was in the "Pick a Win Condition!" strategy where I mention blood pod being a beatdown strategy. This isn't to say they don't run Karmic Guide/Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Felidar Guardian/Birthing Pod combo as a finisher separate to beatdown.

You say you run Eidolon of Blossoms in your Saffi Eriksdotter, which I assume means you can sac Saffi, then the Eidolon to draw a card, but then wouldn't you rather Elvish Visionary? Harmonize is actually a card I greatly suggest against for most people. Green decks are mostly creature-based strategies, and would rather a tutor like Summoner's Pact, Chord of Calling, Green Sun's Zenith, Worldly Tutor, Birthing Pod, or Sylvan Tutor or they would rather a better draw spell like Lead the Stampede. Harmonize rarely is useful in cEDH, it is simply too clunky.

Again, in this list I have made no claims of any card not being cEDH worthy or anything, there is a use for most cards in mtg, not all, Eager Cadet will have to sit this one out, but Eidolon of Blossoms could be in an enchantress deck, and I guess a dredge deck could use the Harmonize to great ability, I never claim a card can't work.

Okay, this next one is the hardest... Edric, Spymaster of Trest and aggro. Yes, it is a deck that wins by dealing combat damage, yes it is a creature based deck that wins... "fast." No, it isn't aggro. Here is my argument, the deck is an extra turns deck, that has a draw engine based on dealing combat damage. This means that it isn't an aggro deck for two reasons, The goal of the normal Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck isn't to win as fast as possible by setting your opponents' life totals to 0, it is a deck based around being able to draw enough cards in a turn to chain effectively infinite turns together, which wins through use of combat damage as a finisher.

I would claim it is a combo deck, no, it doesn't set up a combo like Time Vault + Voltaic Key + Storm Crow to win a game, but it does effectively the same thing, in the same way a storm deck isn't technically a combo deck, nothing it does goes infinite or does something that was an unintended side effect of two or more cards in conjunction, a storm deck simply uses a lot of cards that synergize well, yet they are considered combo because they play the game with a mindset based on winning as fast as possible (while being protected from interaction) without the use of normal creature swings or general burn.

If you were wondering, I will come back to this primer and revamp it, give me a week though, because I have been working on making a primer for all of EDH... and that will take time.

I'm not saying you need to delve into lots of technical theory, my concern is that there is a certain vibe of "You can either win with a combo deck or... You know what, just play combo." Hell, your words are: "Well, though some decks (normally stax decks) can pull this off, I don't recommend it". I get that it's not as strong as combo when played as just pure aggro, but in the context of stax it can be incredibly effective.

Again, I get that beatdown isn't as represented in cEDH and that most beatdown decks will have a combo line out, however the fundamental design of the deck is not a combo deck. And yes, in the case of Edric you're chaining extra turn spells, but I still wouldn't call it combo. The problem with labelling everything which isn't "turn sideways, pass turn and hope you get to do it again" as combo both dilutes what actual combo is and can cause a lot of confusion. After all, Edric decks are usually digging for their Notorious Throng to close games out.

Storm however I would consider to be a combo deck. While it's not your classic "I generate infinite mana and then wreck you with Comet Storm" type deal, the look and feel of the deck is that of combo. You are daisy chaining plenty of spells which are generally netting you a lot of mana, only to power some sort of finisher.

But looking at macro, my issue is that your primer is glossing over the concept of aggro from a fundamentals point of view. I know it's under-represented because raw aggro is not as strong, but it's still a thing. Please don't get me wrong, I do think that for the most part what you're saying is fine and I think that there's some really good stuff in there. I just think it's worth talking about the combo/aggro/control triangle because it is the fundamentals of how MtG works.

As a side note with Eidolon of Blossoms, I run it alongside Elvish Visionary. Eidolon can fulfil the same kind of roles, however it also generates extra value with any other enchantment in the deck, but especially Gift of Immortality. And with Lead the Stampede vs Harmonize, it depends on what you're digging for. If it's a creature, sure. But of you're looking for an enchantment or artifact (Like Blasting Station, the staple win condition for a Saffi Eriksdotter deck), Harmonize is the better choice. Don't get me wrong, I don't personally run either however it's not a bad include, depending on build style.

Oh Wow, I forgot to post this like 3 days ago... this is late. I've been busy with All About EDH if you wanted to know.

enpc Well, I have found there are enough sacrifice outlets like Altar of Dementia and tutors like Enlightened Tutor you should normally get an outlet before Harmonize needs to be run, however I don't know your build, so am mostly in the dark as to what should or should not be played. I also want to thank you for taking the time to write out these well-thought responses.

Yes, I do under represent aggro, as it does exist (in minor ways in comparison to the other archetypes) in cEDH. This is not a primer for all of cEDH, it is an intro to deck-building for competitive environments. The major point of this was to prove bad commanders could be competitive, hence the name "Why Every Commander is Competitive." Aggro requires in nearly all forms a very specific deck, with a specifically good commander, like Tymna the Weaver and Edric, Spymaster of Trest giving great colors for aggro and great card draw capabilities. In this way, I could not make an easy archetypal base for a cEDH aggro deck.

I could make a fully colorless 99 card stax deck and toss on any commander in the game. Though I have yet to do this for combo or control, I can set up a mono-colored varient all of them, so one base for each of the five colors for combo and control, leaving only colorless control/combo. I can't even make a 5 color 99 base for a cEDH aggro deck unless I know the commander. Not even close yet, and I have tried. Aggro relies too heavily on its commander to be viable as a base in this way. Simply put, if you can make a true 99 card aggro deck, I will Retract all statements on this list as to aggro/beatdown and give you credit.

One thing I would like to make clear, is that though this is an intro to deckbuilding in cEDH, specifically on an archetypal level, it isn't the same thing for MtG. I could talk about the historic nature of archetypes in every format of MtG, talk about midrange too, or hybrid decks, but it simply applies too little to the topic I wanted to cover, however I do very much want to say that I will keep all of this in mind for my 'all of EDH primer' that will take a couple weeks to set up.

Hello there Synergybuild. I like what you are doing. This will help new players to build edh decks easily.

Yes Shiroi87, however most players will find All About EDH to be more important, since this is more specialized for competitive EDH.

Couple quibbles here and there: First off, I think you should be a little bit more clear about what you mean by "competitive". I think a more apt title is "Every commander can be built competitively", which I think is a great message about the mindsets and guidelines for building commander competitively, and you do a really good job of breaking that down and providing an introductory guide, particularly for the people who think either A)Pubstompy decks like Rafiq and Kaalia are what cEDH is or B) cEDH is just everyone playing hermit druid combo decks and games always end by turn 3.

Where you lose me a little is that it seems like you really need to qualify that commonly seen cEDH generals are common for a reason. Sure, you can take a consultation Kess list and swap the commander, but at the helm here, Kess > Sedris > Sol'Kanar. This doesn't mean that Sol' Kanar will never win, but if you deny that the deck is better under Kess, you are fooling yourself.

I would also disagree that Najeela is run for her colours. If you think about it, people ran Scion for colours, then partners were printed, and everyone swapped to Thrasios+Tymna for Hermit Druid lists (With some representation in Sultai), and now people are running Najeela, but I don't see much hermit druid in Najeela lists. Her combos are MUCH stronger than Scion's, as they are 1 slot each, and don't require you to cast a WUBRG general and then connect with it to kill.

Apart from those, it's a great guide for people looking to dip their toes in the format, good job!

Ah... Kess Consult is based on Kess, if you built Sedris Twin to be built more using its ability, you can make one that is less than a percent of difference in average winrate.

I never denied anywhere in this lsit that some commanders aren't worse than others, but many people fool themselves in thinking that some commanders are unplayable, or saying that all Sol'Kanar lists are casual or something.

Also, najeela's combos are better than Hermit Druid xDDDD wut.

Yes, Druids' Repository is a nice backup to Pod/Breakfast Hulk/Druid dependent on the build, but they are second almost every time, good under stax and bad early on.

Wait, are you saying Sedris Twin is less than a 1% difference in winrate from Kess Twin? Or Consultation Kess? Because if it's the second one, I'm... skeptical.

I never said you denied it, but I was pointing out that you should specify what you mean by "competitive". Ramirez DePietro at the helm of a Doomtide list will be better than many decks, but it will not hold its own at a table full of competitive decks with good commanders. If you think it won't, you are fooling yourself.

Only an idiot would say Najeela's combos are better than Hermit Druid. Luckily I didn't say that, have never said that and will never say that.

I said SCION combos were worse than najeelas. As in Scion for Moltensteel into scion for Skythyrix or whatever weird things people did. My point was: Scion combos were bad, people ran it for colours. Then Partners came out, and hermit druid players largely switched to partner decks, usually Thrasios Tymna, but some people play UBRG Lightning Druid variants.

Now, it seems people aren't really jumping at the chance to switch back to 5c to play Hermit Druid. Some people do, but from what I've seen, Najeela lends herself more to a tempo/hatebear deck, and hermit druid players are tending to stick with partners.

I stand by my point that Najeela is run because she is gross, not because she is 5c. If she is just run for the colours, why was there almost no 5c druid between partners being printed and Najeela being printed?

EDIT: I said consultation kess because I thought the Grixis Combo list you had was consultation. I think my point is equally valid for Doomsday as it is for Consultation, Kess > Sedris > Sol' Kanar

Yeah, On average, there is a 27% winrate at a tier 1-2 field of decks at a table for Kess Consultation, and Sedris Twin has 26%, so while it could be called a 1% or 4% difference, it depends.

Yeah, Ramirez is a competitive deck. It wins games, reasonably consistently, against the best decks.

Oh, and I am sorry for misunderstanding your arguement for Najeela.

Also, Najeela is only gross because she is 5 color, if it was mono-red no one would run it as is.

Also, Scion was a fun Worldgorger Dragon enabler, I never saw real Skittles-Infect combo.

Obviously no one would run Najeela if she was mono red. I guess we are talking past each other on what "playing for colours" means. In my view, "playing for colours" implies that you are accepting a commander you would rather not run to add colours. I don't believe anyone is running Najeela over either of Thras/Tymna or Tana/Tymna because they want whichever colour the partners deny. They are running it because it enables a different backup wincon. No one would play Najeela if she was mono red, but if she was pretty much any four-colour combination, I bet some people would.

Where are you sourcing your winrate for Sedris Twin? Because things like sample sizes and matchup experience matter. If Sedris Twin had a serious representation in a tracked meta, after players developed some experience playing against the deck, I sincerely doubt it would win its fair share of games.

I think Ramirez perfectly illustrates my point. You can build a competitive deck (UB Doomtide) and stick Ramirez at the helm. It will do alright. In my mind, that makes the deck competitive, not the commander. Otherwise any sort of tier ranking would essentially devolve into a colour ranking.

Well, red doesn't add a lot to Hermit druid, and Morselhoarder isn't really much better than Channeler Initiate, so I imagine even if color identity wasn't a problem, then red might rarely ever be run, it might stretch the landbase to a point where the increase of stability with Gamble or whatever is negated by the increase in chance to not hit colors.

Oh, and, really this list is saying a bad commander is still viable in competitive play, just as I can run Worn Powerstone over Mana Crypt and still win games even if the deck is a little worse because of it. I don't deny anywhere in the list that some commanders aren't better than others, but as the name of the list implies, it explains 'Why Every Commander Is (Viable In) Competitive.'

My source for the change in winrate for Sedris Twin was back when Sedris was the goto, and when Kess came out, what the builders for it thought would be the increase, after testing, I could find links, but am a little tired rn, and lazy!

(P.S. Thanks for the conversation, I'd love to hear more from you!)

I like your article a lot

This type of list would’ve helped me early on after getting back into the game a little over a year ago. Commander is the only reason I started playing this game again. Most of what I’ve learned during this time bout commander/edh has been by trial and error which isn’t necessarily a bad thing but it would’ve made things a tad easier to learn.

KayneMarco, I would imagine that All About EDH is more useful for generally getting into the format!

Love the list! Adding it to my pool of resources and deck building philosophy!

Suns_Champion's Well of Ideas

Commander / EDH* Suns_Champion

SCORE: 10 | 18 COMMENTS | 451 VIEWS | IN 4 FOLDERS

Suns_Champion, thank you, Elspeth, Sun's Champion! Your Duel deck against Kiora is the first product I bought coming back into the game last year, so I am glad to have helped you out in return.

But in all seriousness, I am happy to help you!

Hello, I looked over your removal list and I'd like to throw in some card suggestions.

Lightning Axe - Dismember but in red. Sometimes throwing away your least valuable card such as a land or mana rock is definitely worth it.

Wear / Tear - Any deck in these colors needs this.

Slaughter the Strong - Never under-estimate the power of a sac-wipe. It may spare your opponent's commander, but unlike Wrath of God it removes nasties like Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Void Winnower, Blightsteel Colossus as well as bypassing Gaddock Teeg.

Molten Vortex - Don't waste premium removal spells on hatebears. You can also remove nasty commanders and combo pieces like Gaddock Teeg, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Laboratory Maniac. The bonus is, its an activated ability so your opponent's counterspells can't bail them out either. Also helpful at delaying potential planeswalker ultimates as well.

Murderous Cut - A lot of blue decks will go out of their way to include Treasure Cruise, but they tend to forget this card exists. Unconditional spot removal at one mana is definitely worth a mention.

Assassin's Trophy - Path to Exile but in instant speed Vindicate form.

Snuff Out - Dismember's older sister.

Darksteel Mutation - Place it on their commander. It's like Pacifism but with the added bonus of surviving board wipes. This means unless they have a sac outlet or enchantment hate you've practically exiled their commander from the game for 2 mana because it "removes" the commander without being able to send it to the command zone. Can also be placed on your own creature for an A+ chump blocker.

StopShot Personally not a fan of Mutation or Axe, but both have their place. I find hard removal for commanders isn't as difficult. Often a two-mana creature removal spell has to be at least be at instant speed. Otherwise it is a much worse Gilded Drake , a card I find only semi-playable in specific slower blue decks.

I love the other suggestions!

I need to update this deck description as well as it's bigger sister, All About EDH

Nice list, just an FYI though, you still have Paradox Engine listed in your combo section.