Maybe you could also add a one of Boseiju, Who Shelters All to have uncounted able win-cons.
November 12, 2015 9:11 p.m.
Boseiju, Who Shelters All was a card I tested, but once added it forces me to start running Tolaria West due to the high number of situationally powerful lands which I run. Once I run Tolaria West though, the deck slows down considerably. Boseiju also REALLY hurts to use for anything other than an un-counterable win-con. I suppose I could test its usefulness against that of Alchemist's Refuge... But I definitely would not main deck the card.
As to the Snapcaster Mage vs Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip argument, while snappy does allow instant speed recovery of spells from the yard, jace tends to stick to the board for a while and is here to cover the fact that this deck lacks high value cards and recovery mechanics when it starts to fall behind. In control match-ups at least, I want to have at least 2 of him in the deck. That said, snappy is better against Aggro decks and does provide instant speed spell recovery... I might replace the two main board jaces with snappies as they are slightly more... Sneaky, for lack of a better word. Surprise matters game 1. I'll test it out. Thank you for the suggestions!
November 12, 2015 10:10 p.m. Edited.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #4
Shouldn't there be a Plan B? As it stands, all I have to do is cast Slaughter Games or any other effect of that type and I auto-win. I would add some beaters (goyf, tasigur, there are a ton of options in your colors) in case you can't get the combo off.
November 18, 2015 4:11 p.m.
I understand that I could just get blown out by Slaughter Games, but the deck
A: runs counter spells. While these don't work against Slaughter Games they will work against Surgical Extraction which is usually picked over Slaughter Games.
B: can combo off before turn 4 a reasonable amount of the time.
C: has negative synergy with delve cards like Tasigur, the Golden Fang and will NEVER run goyf. Not that goyf or tasigur are necessarily bad suggestions, but rather once I add them I might as well just go all the way to Sultai control.
D: if I were to run a back-up infinite combo to play around Slaughter Games I would get dead draws far too often.
I understand it sucks to get blown out, but most decks get blown out by some card or another. Slaughter Games and Surgical Extraction will just have to be my kryptonite.
November 18, 2015 4:20 p.m.
Programmer_112 says... #6
Wait how does Tasigur, the Golden Fang have negative synergy? Sure, you don't want to exile your combo, but you DEFINITELY want to exile the crappy cards off of Grisly Salvage, the transmuters, and the cantrips, which should be more than enough to avoid exiling your combo.
November 18, 2015 7:04 p.m.
The deck does not put enough cards into the yard to make good use of Tasigur, the Golden Fang. The negative synergy comes from the fact that often times, both creatures and spells are things i want to keep in the yard should they prove useful when combined with Snapcaster Mage or Jace, Telepath Unbound
Flip. This means the only thing which I can reliably delve away are land cards, and this deck doesn't pitch its own cards often enough to get that many lands into the yard reliably. Granted, I could probably delve away any duplicate cards that end up in the yard, but then Tasigur, the Golden Fang becomes a situational and arguably less useful version of Spellskite.
Given that he would become this deck's only big beater of a minion, he likely also would not present that large of a lethal threat to my opponents, making him only useful as a blocker. If I needed blockers, I might just run Drift of Phantasms over Perplex.
November 18, 2015 7:09 p.m.
theClokkwork says... #8
Another uncounterable win con could be Banefire, if you wanted an alternative to the Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, since it doesn't rely on the combat step.
November 18, 2015 7:16 p.m.
I considered Banefire but the reasoning behind Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is that he not only helps against mill/discard decks, but also cannot be Ricochet Trapped, which Banefire can be.
November 18, 2015 7:18 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #10
If you actually want to all-in, then you should definitely add some more counters, protection, as you currently have very little to save your combo from removal. I would add 1-2 Dispel in main, probably a full playset of Remand, and a Cryptic Command or two can't hurt either. I would drop some of the removal and some draw spells, since you already run a LOT of tutors (-1 Abrupt Decay, -2-3 Grisly Salvage, -1 Serum Visions?).
November 18, 2015 7:21 p.m.
theClokkwork says... #11
You could easily use Pact of Negation to protect the combo, since once you go off you are trying to win that turn.
November 18, 2015 7:33 p.m.
I might drop Gitaxian Probes before I drop Serum Visions. I do still appreciate the power of Remand... It's something to consider.
With regard to Cryptic Command, that card often just costs too much mana. This deck is brutal on its own life total, having to fetch into shock quite often, so it doesn't tend to last long beyond turn 8-10. Given its high cost, Cryptic Command would likely not see all that much use in this deck prior to me going infinite on mana. I suppose if I were to slow this deck down enough to effectively become a combo deck that was highly similar to splinter twin in terms of its speed, that could be an option. At that point I would definitely replace Perplex with Drift of Phantasms though just to be a meat wall in aggro match-ups.
As to Dispels in the mainboard... I don't like the idea simply because Dispel isn't going to hit much more than cantrips/discard spells in the majority of match-ups, which means I would rather just run my own cantrips instead so I can kill my opponent faster. They are useful in control match-ups granted but they feel like dead cards more often than I would like. Pact of Negation suffers similar issues, but suffers because it is only useful as a counter spell the turn that I try to go off, rather than only being useful in certain match-ups. This means that Pact will also be a dead card in my hand more often than I would like.
Aside from this, yes the infinite combo in this deck is somewhat weak to removal. However, it is very hard to stop this deck from going off by using removal. If Pili-Pala is killed before Grand Architect is played then I always have Postmortem Lunge to pull him back around turn 5-6 when I play Grand Architect. Granted some control decks could just counter this, but the majority of decks which one plays against will not be able to reliably remove pili and then counter the Postmortem Lunge to boot. If removal is used on Grand Architect or Pili-Pala while both are on the field, I can always just a pay one blue mana to activate Grand Architect and turn Pili-Pala blue. This means that as long as both are on the field, Grand Architect effectively provides me with as many Dispels as my mana base can support. As for countering win-cons, I have Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Boseiju, Who Shelters All in the sidebaord for just such occasions.
What this means for me is that mainboarding in Dispel is often completely un-necessary unless I plan to be fighting large counter wars, which I would only do against control decks. Cryptic Command is often too slow or too difficult to cast for the deck, as I try to make my mana as flexible across all three colors it runs, which hurts my ability to generate three mana of any one color reliably. If it were easier to cast, I might replace Maelstrom Pulse with it even, as the two perform much of the same functions (acting as single target removal which can be used on everything but lands or as a sweeper of creatures) with cryptic being a bit more expensive but far more versatile when it is not needed as either of the aforementioned.
Remand I might be able to use over some number of Gitaxian Probes/Grisly Salvages because it is both faster and easier to cast than Cryptic Command and is usable in all match-ups unlike Dispel. That is something I will have to test. But for the most part the Grand Architect
+
Pili-Pala
combo is actually a lot harder to disrupt than it would appear at first glance.
November 18, 2015 7:47 p.m. Edited.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #13
The problem I'm seeing is, this deck just sort of seems to fold to basically any form of disruption. Path to Exile currently pretty much ends the game on the spot if not countered. Discard hurts this build. Both creatures are in bolt range and are hit by more or less any form of removal out there. A solid 95% of the meta has some form of removal in it, save Infect, Boggles and maybe Bloom Titan, and all of those decks can outrace you easily. I would either go the control route with a heavy counterspell emphasis, or put in some beaters for a secondary plan, or at the very least to put some pressure on your opponent, because as is, I can't really see this build beating any competitive deck out there. Postmortem Lunge is decent, but it definitely won't be enough to save you most of the time.
November 18, 2015 7:59 p.m.
You're right about Path to Exile. That card is vicious against this deck.
I won't take the bloom Titan comment lying down. Against faster combo decks, I can hold my transmute components to use as counter magics. That means 7 counter magics main board game 1, alongside 6 removal spells. This doesn't mean I am dismissing your point that I could use more counter magics main board. It just means my deck is capable of going fast or slow based on what the opponent is playing even in game 1.
This all said, what are your thoughts on switching 3xGitaxian Probe + 1xGrisly Salvage over to 4xRemand? Are there other cards you would suggest swapping.
Additionally, what are your thoughts on Maelstrom Pulse vs Cryptic Command? I personally prefer the pulse as it comes out faster and easier which often makes it stronger against decks which are faster than I am. My play testing with this deck has so far reinforced this stance for me. What are your thoughts?
As to extra Dispels in the main board... Regardless of its usefulness, I'm putting my foot down on that and rejecting that idea. My deck my rules. Call me a baby, but I just don't want to take my deck that far into control territory where I could be running 13-15 counter spells main board game one (depending on whether or not I make the cryptic change).
November 18, 2015 9:18 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #15
That change seems fine. As for the Pulse VS Command, I would probably do a 1/1 split, keeping in mind that Snappy can use them both again. Also, maybe add a third copy of him?
November 18, 2015 10:17 p.m.
I'll make those changes then and drop one Abrupt Decay... I'm thinking to add one Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Flip to the mainboard over the third copy of Snapcaster Mage simply because of the higher degree of synergy with Postmortem Lunge.
The problem there is that I don't need a whole three Jace's in control match-ups which is where I board him in. Yeah nevermind, one more Snapcaster Mage it is.
November 19, 2015 1:43 a.m.
Adameus2012 says... #17
Have you ever considered Sudden Spoiling in sideboard? It stops twin, stops a lot of aggro decks (especially tribals who rely heavily on lord boosts and such), control has a hard time dealing with it as does combo. There are very few decks that this doesn't at least somewhat meaningfully interact with. Eldrazis can die, it can act as a one sided pseudo fog, can't be countered, and if you happen to play against hatebears or death and taxes it's twice as good. Just food for thought.
November 19, 2015 8:42 a.m.
It's not bad, but at that point I would probably just run another Cryptic Command as I could use it to tap down all of my opponent's creatures for the turn. Or AEtherize.
Sudden Spoiling isn't bad, but in a combo deck like this one, there simply isn't room. Any room there would be already gets beaten out by Cryptic Command anyway.
November 19, 2015 11:07 a.m.
Adameus2012 says... #19
True, it's really just the losing abilities part in conjunction with the split second that shines. Command is definitely more versatile, albeit; more mana intensive.
November 19, 2015 4:09 p.m.
I have reset the discussion for clutter purposes.
On a side note; I have been maintaining a sideboard swaps section for this deck to provide users with as much information as possible to help them succeed. However, I know there are users on tappedout who know more about other deck archetypes than I, and who could probably provide better sideboarding advice than I could against 1-2 archetypes per person. I am more than open to any and all feedback on my side boarding tips. What I want is to have the most accurate side boarding section I can.
I don't know what to expect from this request, as -to my knowledge- no-one has asked this of the tappedout community before. Regardless of the results, thank you guys in advance!
November 19, 2015 8:42 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #21
"The Watermelon Effect"
Hahahaha happy I was able to help you :)
November 19, 2015 8:51 p.m.
Commenting just to ping anyone who might be interested. I have updated the "Maybeboard Discussions" section of the deck with my thoughts on two potential changes: The addition of Golgari Charm to the side-board, and the removal of Cavern of Souls from the deck. Check it out and let me know what you guys think.
November 24, 2015 1:47 a.m.
Ok so the way I am currently leaning for deck changes is as follows:
3xPerplex --> 3xDrift of Phantasms
To help with Aggro match ups and because my mana base can handle the double U transmute rather well now.
1xBoseiju, Who Shelters All --> 1xPithing Needle
Because I do not like liliana and I don't have an unlimited supply of removal. Boseiju is a bit of a pipe dream anyway, and given that drift can take a lot of pressure off of me in control match-ups, I don't need a land that helps me win faster.
1xGrisly Salvage --> 1xJarad's Orders
For consistency at a manageable loss of speed.
Cavern of Souls stays in and Golgari Charm stays out.
Thoughts?
November 25, 2015 9:41 p.m.
I don't wanna assume I know better than you how to play your deck, but it looks like you could use some more outlets for your infinite mana. You've got a playset of Grand Architect and Pili-Pala, but only 1 each of Blue Sun's Zenith and Profane Command. Know what I mean? I guess you've got lots of tutors, but couldn't it make more sense to just increase the number of your x spells?
jesmister says... #1
Only instead of O Jace instead of jave
November 12, 2015 9:07 p.m.