Censorship
The Blind Eternities forum
Posted on Aug. 22, 2021, 5:23 p.m. by Oof_Magic
Where is the line beyond which we can deprive someone there freedom of speech? I always was under the understanding that that line was at violence and not offense. I recently posted a thread that got pulled down for being offensive to someone. Now I personally find that to be an offensive action. Because someone took their hurt feelings up with someone else rather than voicing their opinion with me, I got my digital mouth stapled shut. I’ve had my opinions, which don’t target any particular group, shut down and had insults personally leveled against me. I’ve been called dismissive and then been dismissed. I’ve been called a troll and then had healthy debate closed down without dialogue. I’ve been told to conform my speech to be more inclusive or face being excluded.
What is the line of acceptable speech? I’m of the belief that allowing speech, even if ugly, allows those who see your speech or hear it to see you for what you think and make their own conclusions about you. It gives people a door to engage in your ideas and either agree or attempt to change your mind. Instead of putting me on blast, I’ve been swept under a rug. Has anyone else run into an issue where an opinion was deemed unacceptable by the powers that be?
If you’ve had your opinion stomped out or suppressed, get back to me and let me know how you handle it. It’s a scary world when a legally acceptable opinion is quashed for the sake of what is socially popular.
Note: I haven’t reiterated my so called ‘unacceptable opinion’ here so if this thread is blocked or suppressed or pulled down, it is a personal assault on me rather than protecting people from my ‘unacceptable opinion.’
You were guilty of wrong think, and that's a no no nowadays. You MUST conform or else.
August 23, 2021 9:53 a.m.
RiotRunner789 says... #3
"I'm with the OP on this one and almost left the site entirely a few months back.
I've had posts deleted because I was being an "asshole" by calling out rude ungrateful people... an action I'll take EVERY time.
I personally hate it when someone posts advice, gets no response (or cards added etc.), and then the OP continues to deckcycle or makes additional posts/changes. I understand if you're not around, but it's easy to spot the difference and it's fucking rude to ignore someone else volunteering their time/knowledge to help." -Last Laugh
You did swear you were leaving and never coming back. That lasted all of two weeks.
Again, people don't have to respond to your comments within hours before you begin to spam their deck lists with insults. Then they delete your insulting comments and you go nuts. Then you continue to spam and be abusive and yeaGO deleted your comments. Seems fair.
And, let's be honest. Your feedback is less about being helpful than it is about promoting your own deck lists.
August 23, 2021 10:28 a.m.
Last_Laugh says... #4
RiotRunner789 Keep my name outta your mouth until you know wtf you're talking about.
"Respond within hours"... are you fucking serious?!? It'd been over a week and that user continued to post, make changes, and cycle their deck EVERY DAY THAT WEEK. All I did was call that out as being rude and this user goes off and runs his mouth talking shit at which point I barked BACK (sound familiar... I'm guessing it was you with the way you came at me!). Also, I post my list whenever I'm posting help to the same commander for a helpful REFERENCE... who the fuck are you to question my motives?
August 23, 2021 10:51 a.m.
I'd like to take a second to mention something about free speech. Since I live in the USA, I'll use that as my reference.
Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech...
To the best of my knowledge, none of the admins here represent or claim to represent the US Congress or any equivalent body. They also have the right to restrict service as they see fit--private businesses often have a sign along the lines of "We reserve the right to refuse service to any person at any time for any reason." So claiming that they're unfairly restricting somebody is likely preventing them from expressing their rights--the claimant is doing exactly what they accuse others of doing.
Oof_Magic, I have a pretty direct question for you, and again, this is a face-value question, not looking for a specific answer. Do you ever identify with or feel represented by a character in any media? I don't mean that you respect a character, or think they're well-written or anything. Have you had any of the following reactions?
"This character has had a lot of unfair struggles in their life. I hope they succeed."
"I know exactly what that character went through, so seeing them come out on top feels rewarding."
"Something bad happened to a friend of mine, and this character parallels that. I think I get what they're going through."
I'm not really looking for an answer, since this is a very personal question. Maybe just a little reflection.
August 23, 2021 10:54 a.m.
RiotRunner789 says... #6
"RiotRunner789 Keep my name outta your mouth until you know wtf you're talking about.
"Respond within hours"... are you fucking serious?!? It'd been over a week and that user continued to post, make changes, and cycle their deck EVERY DAY THAT WEEK. All I did was call that out as being rude and this user goes off and runs his mouth talking shit at which point I barked BACK (sound familiar... I'm guessing it was you with the way you came at me!). Also, I post my list whenever I'm posting help to the same commander for a helpful REFERENCE... who the fuck are you to question my motives?" -LastLaugh
I guess let's break this down.
On the 'shutting up because I don't know what I'm talking about.' You then assume it was me, therefore by your own logic, I do know what I'm talking about. In actuality I am referring to an incident over a year ago. But glad to know your the same "asshole" that requires your self worth to be validated by others responding to your deck comments. (Which by the way, backs up my point that the comments are not about being helpful).
Second, what's wrong with questioning motives?
How's arickideck or wherever it was that you decided to go to? Or not go to?
August 23, 2021 11:07 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #7
So let me get this straight. You posted advice on somebody’s deck list. Instead of responding to you, they made some changes and cycled the deck to the front page every day for a week?
That sounds so rude. That’s probably the most rude thing I think I’ve ever seen. This user didn’t acknowledge your presence and respond to you? How dare he! Doesn’t he know who you are!! You are LAST_LAUGH!! You are like, a god or something on this site. To not respond to you for over a week is tantamount to blasphemy and heresy! He should be burned at the stake!!
You sound ridiculous. You’re crying because somebody didn’t respond to your advice? Get over it, dude. Seriously. That’s super petty.
August 23, 2021 11:19 a.m.
Daveslab2022 I didn’t know much of anything about Liliana’s origin and I didn’t need to to already believe she had a compelling character arc. I respect that she acts as a woman, was treated as a woman, and uses being a woman to gain ends, but she doesn’t do anything for the sake of validating herself as a woman. At least not as far as I know. And if that isn’t the case, it surely didn’t factor into my opinion of her as a compelling character.
legendofa I never claimed I should be protected. Perhaps it was wrong of me to appeal to freedom of speech. Admins certainly have a right to do with my account what they will just like they have a right to call me this or that. If I don’t like it, I will leave. I just sought to see where the line is.
And upon reflection, no. Those are not thoughts I’ve had when analyzing a character. I look for cohesion, consistency, and comprehensibility. Otherwise, I’d only be looking at the heroes to validate the laws and rules of the world in which they operate.
August 23, 2021 12:19 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #9
So you have never had the experience on identifying with a character and yet you tell others that it's meaningless? You try to discorage others from something you have no experience with, dismissing it as meaningless just because you yourself have never felt those feelings?
August 23, 2021 12:23 p.m.
Wendithewendigo I think that’s misguided perspective. I’ve never experienced murder but have opinions on it. I think you can have opinions on things you haven’t experienced.
August 23, 2021 12:31 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #11
What does it mean to validated as a woman? Could you give me an example of something Lilliana could do to “validate herself as a woman?”
August 23, 2021 12:38 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #12
Murder is something you can perform, as opposed to an emotion or something you feel. It would be the same as telling a Trans person dysphoria isn't a problem, or a person struggling with depression just to be happy. Also lilliana doesn't need to validate herself as a woman because she is one.
August 23, 2021 12:47 p.m.
Wendithewendigo Insulting someone is an action as well. It is separate from being insulted. You do one and feel another. As someone who’s been on the depression end, that’s exactly what I was told. At least when I wasn’t being given drugs to bury it under. And that last sentence is my whole point exactly. You don’t need to validate what you are because you are it. And what is representation designed to do?
August 23, 2021 12:56 p.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #14
Oof_Magic Representation makes characters more relatable to a larger audience. An often overlooked aspect of good character design is relatability. It makes characters feel more real and personal. Even when a character's sexual orientation or gender has nothing to do with plot, it is a significant detail that makes the character more relatable to different groups. As I said earlier, you just don't get it because you are neither a minority nor do you care to put yourself in their shoes.
August 23, 2021 1:06 p.m.
EleshNornsFs I would refrain from assuming my characteristic status. That’s a dangerous line of reasoning.
I see that shared characteristics give people something to relate to. I just see that as a misguided perspective to hold. I can understand someone’s desire for revenge over mistreatment even if I think forgiveness is a better route.
August 23, 2021 1:14 p.m. Edited.
Daveslab2022 says... #16
Oof_Magic Dude now you’re talking in circles.
Lilliana has never done anything to validate herself as a woman
You in comment #8 on page 2.
Now you say
You don’t need to validate what you are because you are it.
It can’t be both. Either she needs to validate herself or she doesn’t. You have two conflicting arguments here
August 23, 2021 1:24 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #17
Why do you see relating to a character as misguided? Characters need to be relatable to the audience to give the world some grounding in reality. And beyond being relatable it can help show minorities in a casual context so that when people do interact with those minorities they act appropriately and without prejudice.
August 23, 2021 1:26 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #18
Freedom of speech doesn't exist everywhere and in places it does exist it's not free from repercussions. If mods/admins/site owners feel that something is against their terms or service which is agreed to before an account is made - they have every right to pull a post they feel may be detrimental to the community; this is meant to be a friendly deck building site and often times people would rather avoid confrontation. Sure, it would be nice if everything could be settled in a civil conversation either through private message or on the thread itself but sometimes it just devolves into an argument that cannot be salvaged and it's better for the thread to be locked.
August 23, 2021 1:39 p.m.
Daveslab2022 Liliana doesn’t do anything to validate herself as a woman because she doesn’t need to because she is one. It’s self validating (hence the circle) and doesn’t need action or to be spelled out in writing.
Wendithewendigo I see it as misguided because I see both villains and heroes who share characteristics with myself but because they each have wildly different motivations, I don’t relate using characteristics. I could be the good guy or the bad guy. Why would I relate to opposite ends of the spectrum simultaneously?
August 23, 2021 1:42 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #20
…. Oof_magic
But you’re the one who said Lilliana has never validated herself as a woman… Now you’re changing your argument….
August 23, 2021 1:45 p.m.
RNR_Gaming I disagree that a thread should be locked. Those who wish to remove themselves from a conversation are free to do so as are those who engage. It’s hard to agree with something as nebulous as ‘polite.’
August 23, 2021 1:46 p.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #23
Oof_Magic What you would refrain from and what I would refrain from are vastly different things, and I fail to see danger in my assumption. The only risk to me is looking like an ass to some internet strangers, something both you and I are no stranger to. If you wanted to tell me to not make assumptions about you, simply do so. Trying to sound tough and vague about it makes you sound quite silly.
August 23, 2021 1:48 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #24
Oof_Magic I already explained how you changed your argument but okay I guess I’ll explain it again.
You said Lilliana never validated herself as a woman. Then you said she doesn’t have too validate herself as a woman because she is a woman.
These two sentences are conflicting each other.
Why would you waste time saying that she’s never validated herself if she doesn’t have too? What purpose does that statement provide to the conversation?
August 23, 2021 1:52 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #25
A good villan is relatable. A you should be able to see their motivations and understand why they do the things they do. A great villain does the right thing for themselves and their experiences. The best Villains make you question why they are the Villains and if the hero is doing the right thing. A good hero is human and makes mistakes. A good hero makes questionable choices that some people may not be able to agree with. Being able to relate to both sides shows depth of character and the ability to place yourself in other people's shoes. Your argument would be correct if there was no difference in experiences between minorities and majorities but that is not the case. The backstory and experiences of a character are what shape the choices they make and having queer characters that have those backstories makes them relatable. The difference between a token character and a well constructed character is the backstory of the character. I'm using queer people and characters because that is what I can personally relate to and I don't want to speak over racial minorities, nerodivergent people, disabled people and all the other minorities, but I think I can say that most would feel the same way about backstories separating token characters from inclusive ones
August 23, 2021 1:58 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #26
Oof_Magic at this point I'm not sure if you're trolling or just hard headed - there are rules for engaging on this site. Think outside of yourself and what your comfort zone is. There are people behind the usernames and the goal of the site admins/owner is to make a fun, exclusive and safe environment for their users. If multiple users issue complaints about a thread or it's just outright egregious it'll more than likely be locked; chances are the users who issued the complaint probably blocked you after they reported it so they'll no longer interact with you.
Also, it's good to note you'll likely get a message if you try to interact with people that trying to contact them could result in a ban. Anyways, try to think outside of yourself and respect other users and perhaps be more open to other prospective.
August 23, 2021 3:10 p.m.
Daveslab2022 perhaps I missed the original point you were trying to make?
Wendithewendigo I think understanding a character and relating to a character are different but that difference in viewpoint may be where the conflict we are having arises. I can understand a character like Thanks but I do not relate to him, especially on characteristics. When you say that you should be able to recognize and understand a characters motivations leads me to believe that that is what makes a character well rounded. I’m glad we could bring it back to motivation. I’ve never said anything against characteristics. I’ve said that if you are going to relate to characters, motivations will encompass a broader audience.
August 23, 2021 3:14 p.m.
RNR_Gaming If we could leave it to a block then that would be great. I hope we can keep it to that and leave conversations we don’t like rather than call to shut them down. If I don’t like why someone is saying, I can leave. I would never seek to have someone shut down shy of having a threat issued towards me.
August 23, 2021 3:16 p.m.
Wendithewendigo Sorry. Thanos. Damn you, autocorrect!
August 23, 2021 3:17 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #31
thanos, I presume.
Oof_Magic the point I was trying to make was to refute your argument that a characters motivations, identity and characteristics DO move the story forward. More often than not. I did this using the example of the Hero’s Journey, which is the most common literary device used in all of story-telling. From the Odyssey, to the Hunger Games, to basically every story in MTG, the characters identity is what moves the story forward. The story doesn’t change until the main character(s) has some sort of revelation that changes something about themselves, their identity.
I refuted your example of “Lilianna would still make deals with demons if she were a man.” By explaining how, because she was a woman, that’s how she discovered necromancy. If she were a man, her entire storyline and identity would be entirely different.
August 23, 2021 3:23 p.m.
Daveslab2022 I see what you’re trying to say. I still have to disagree. Where you start does make up a part of the greater story arc. While I acknowledge Liliana may ended up making deals with demons because something about being a woman played a part in getting her there, I don’t think she would stand before those demons and say ‘I’m here because I’m a woman.’ Why does she make that bargain with demons and what drove her to do so? That rationale may stem from being a woman but being a woman is not in and of itself the rationale. At least I hope not.
August 23, 2021 3:54 p.m.
I don’t know anything about the original drama that took place before this thread was made, but when it comes to the issues regarding free speech, to me it seems like we’ve reached a point where we as humanity lost that right a long time ago. In the age of the internet its so easy to fall into an echo chamber and believe misinformation as gospel to the point it causes people to act in violent and destructive ways. You could say we should only punish those who act that way and not the people saying socially unacceptable things, but as a society I think many people feel it is preferable for violent and destructive things to not happen in the first place than hope that the threat of punishment will deter the unhinged. No one is saying any one thing you said is the direct cause of any one physically harmful action, but that’s the thing. Most of the cases where people are pushed to such means isn’t caused by any one particular comment online, but a constant and cumulative output of smaller comments that would be insignificant just on their own. This means cracking down on it has to come off as harsh and the problem isn’t so much the speech police, but the people who can’t contain themselves whenever they invest themselves into rhetoric that can inspire destructive tendencies. If everyone could be civilized even while consuming the most abhorrent of content then there would be no need for censorship, but that doesn’t happen in reality and its those who take vile actions just by words alone are the reason we can’t have nice things like true freedom of speech.
And it should be said censorship isn’t convenient even for the people that advocate it either. I’m more for restrictions on problematic speech and symbols myself. That said, recently there was a character I really liked on a game called Azur Lane so much that I wanted to replicate their outfit on a character model in a different game. Azur Lane is developed in China and the character I liked was meant to personify a historical Chinese warship that was used in WWII. (China being on the side of the allies). The problem was the character who I liked had a red sash on her arm, no Swastika, just a red sash with a stylized white bunny logo and as I said the character had no intention of trying to draw any alikeness to Nazis. The character model I wanted to make couldn’t be created, because it violated the other game’s policies, that being just the red sash aspect of her clothes despite it overall being more aligned with traditional Chinese garb. While I would have really liked to use that outfit so much, I don’t blame or hate the game’s policy for taking that stance against me. I blame and hate the actual Nazis of today who are the reason that game’s policy had to be put up in the first place. I know the character I like isn’t a Nazi symbol, but the fact they could be seen that way tells me that Nazism is still a big problem today and if I want my character’s attire to be more socially acceptable then I should be mounting my frustrations at modern-day Nazism and not the anti-free-speech policies trying to combat it. Personally, I find taking that mindset helpful, don’t hate the free-speech restrictions and censorship, hate the root cause for why those restrictions had to be put up in the first place. If Nazis are restricting my self-expression or my free speech then screw Nazis. I’m going to use my character to take a stance against them rather than use my character to take a stance with them.
August 23, 2021 3:59 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #34
Okay so now we’re on the same page. Yes, you are correct that lilianna actively making deals with demons is not because she’s a woman. But she did get to the point of making deals with demons because she’s a woman. See how character traits move the story forward? Her being a woman helped her get to the position she is in.
The reason she makes deals with demons is because of another character trait that she possesses, which is her drive for power. She makes a deal with the demons after the mending, which is an event that caused Planeswalkers to lose a great deal of their power. She wanted that back. That’s why she makes deals with demons.
Again, her personality is what drives the story forward.
August 23, 2021 3:59 p.m.
Daveslab2022 I could do with being enlightened more deeply on her lore. What about her being a woman brought her to make deals with demons? You stated it was her desire for power. Nothing about her gender. So I don’t really see how characteristic traits moved her story when it was her personality traits. And even that could be seen as one dimensional and that’s what made her attempt to reclaim her soul so great. It showed a change in motivation. That desire for power that she has is a motivation that characters across characteristics share and could manifest if she was a man of rewritten to do so. Bolas shared her hunger for power, though shared little in the way of characteristics.
August 23, 2021 4:15 p.m. Edited.
Wendithewendigo says... #36
She joined a healers school thing for women, which lead to her driving her brother insane and starting to practice necromancy
August 23, 2021 4:28 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #37
This thread was moved to a more appropriate forum (auto-generated comment)
August 23, 2021 4:29 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #38
Which gave her the motivation to start doing more necromancy and eventually ignited her spark
August 23, 2021 4:29 p.m.
Wendithewendigo How did joining a healer’s school drive her brother insane? I do see how her gender plays a role in where her character starts but I don’t think it’s because she’s a woman that she decided to learn necromancy.
Femme_Fatale What does that mean?
August 23, 2021 4:44 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #40
Oof_Magic you’re missing the point again. She didn’t study necromancy because she’s a woman. She learned about necromancy because of the “healers school” (called the Clerics of the Forward Order). The healers school is only available to women. IE, she learned necromancy because she’s a woman. Just indirectly.
August 23, 2021 4:48 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #41
Liliana's father made her join a all woman order of healers. She started practicing necromancy to make her healing more powerful. Her brother was afflicted by a curse put on him by his father's enemies. She wasn't a very good student at the healers school so her mentor gave her the task of healing her brother to humble her. While she was gathering herbs the raven man (not important to the Discussion) convinced her to give her brother the wrong potion because it would cure him. It cured him but also poisoned him and made him go insane. She raised the victims of her brother's murder spree as zombies. Some point along the line her spark ignited and sent her to innistrad.
August 23, 2021 5:07 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #42
After that she meets bolas, makes her pact, gets the chain veil and starts killing the demons
August 23, 2021 5:08 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #43
Also femme Fatale was just the cover for a bot comment
August 23, 2021 5:08 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #44
Oof_Magic. It's an auto generated comment that means that the thread was moved. Tappedout subsection of the forum was not the place for this thread.
August 23, 2021 5:09 p.m. Edited.
Daveslab2022 That last word it essentially everything I’m saying. Indirect or incidental.
Wendithewendigo I see that she is a woman. I see that she couldn’t be in an all girl school without being a woman. I see how that seeds her path going forward. I don’t see how that drives her path. It’s the vehicle but not the fuel.
Femme_Fatale Moved to where?
August 23, 2021 5:54 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #46
Moved to the blind eternities. The backstory is just as much of a fuel as anything else, because where we come from and who we are from that govern our choices
August 23, 2021 5:57 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #47
It’s everything you’re saying? You said that a characters personality doesn’t move the story forward. So I’m not sure how incidental or indirect applies to that. It either does or it doesn’t.
The vehicle is just as important as the fuel. Where a person comes from changes their identity and motivations.
August 23, 2021 6 p.m.
Daveslab2022 I said their characteristics don’t move a story forward. On the contrary I think I’ve stated that a character’s personality and motivations do more to shape a character’s story arc. And as a response to the original thread I was commenting on, I define characteristic as gender, race, sexuality, weight, hair color, number of fingers, etc.
You are perfectly at liberty to see characteristics and motivations as equal. I see how they have overlap in a Venn Diagram but that diagram is not a circle and I focus on one circle while acknowledging the existence of the other when assessing a character. I would not want to be the one saying, I don’t like this character because they are a man or I like this character because they are gay, or any permutation of that.
August 23, 2021 6:17 p.m.
Wendithewendigo I never knew all the intimate details of Liliana to find her story compelling enough. Those details certainly add to what I already believed and the depth of her struggles and the influence of the Raven Man definitely enrich her character. None of that gets to her characteristics. I disagree that where you start is part of how you move on from that starting point. She could have dealt with her brother’s death in a number of ways.
August 23, 2021 6:20 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #50
Just a quick question, how many fingers do the people you talk to have, and is this something that you see a lot of variance in?
Daveslab2022 says... #1
Oof_Magic
Yes Lilliana does have bigger things than being a woman on her plate.
Lilliana, if male, would not have made deals with demons or anything of the sort. Her entire story would be different, and actually does hinge on the fact that she’s a woman.
Firstly, her lore described her as a temptress. And he father was a lord. Meaning this was medieval age ish times. Lilliana was forced to join the Cleric of the Forward Order. We only know two members by name, Lilliana and Lady Ana. Both female. In Cleric of the Forward Order we see a female representative. It’s safe to say if Lilliana was a man, she would never have studied magic, or discovered necromancy.
She would’ve just been another warrior in her fathers Army.
So while Lilliana talking to demons and everything that took place after this doesn’t matter that she was a woman, her entire origin story does.
Also, to say that a characters characteristics don’t impact the story…. that’s just goofy… Have you heard of the myth of the “hero’s journey?” It’s the main storytelling device used throughout history.
From the Odyssey, an ancient epic poem, to the Hunger Games, a modern young adult dystopian novel, most stories revolve around the hero’s journey.
The hero’s journey cannot move forward until the hero learns something about themselves, or changes something about themselves. These things being the characteristics of that character. Odysseus just wanted to get back home to his wife but he learned many valuable lessons a long the way. Katniss just wanted to stay alive and protect her family, to wanted to destroy the capitol. The characteristics of these characters changes, and so do their motivations. To say that their motivations have nothing to do with their characteristics is just completely 100% wrong. Ive never read a story where the main characters personality traits aren’t a driving force in the narrative.
August 23, 2021 8:26 a.m.