Censorship
The Blind Eternities forum
Posted on Aug. 22, 2021, 5:23 p.m. by Oof_Magic
Where is the line beyond which we can deprive someone there freedom of speech? I always was under the understanding that that line was at violence and not offense. I recently posted a thread that got pulled down for being offensive to someone. Now I personally find that to be an offensive action. Because someone took their hurt feelings up with someone else rather than voicing their opinion with me, I got my digital mouth stapled shut. I’ve had my opinions, which don’t target any particular group, shut down and had insults personally leveled against me. I’ve been called dismissive and then been dismissed. I’ve been called a troll and then had healthy debate closed down without dialogue. I’ve been told to conform my speech to be more inclusive or face being excluded.
What is the line of acceptable speech? I’m of the belief that allowing speech, even if ugly, allows those who see your speech or hear it to see you for what you think and make their own conclusions about you. It gives people a door to engage in your ideas and either agree or attempt to change your mind. Instead of putting me on blast, I’ve been swept under a rug. Has anyone else run into an issue where an opinion was deemed unacceptable by the powers that be?
If you’ve had your opinion stomped out or suppressed, get back to me and let me know how you handle it. It’s a scary world when a legally acceptable opinion is quashed for the sake of what is socially popular.
Note: I haven’t reiterated my so called ‘unacceptable opinion’ here so if this thread is blocked or suppressed or pulled down, it is a personal assault on me rather than protecting people from my ‘unacceptable opinion.’
Wendithewendigo "She would have never been in the situation with the raven man to begin with if not for her being a woman"
What do you mean?
August 23, 2021 7:24 p.m.
Wendithewendigo Where are you going with that question on fingers? I’m trying to be open to those with different numbers of fingers by saying I don’t judge one way or the other. Same with any characteristic. Do you want to know how many men I know? Green people? Non-binary? Red haired? It doesn’t matter to me. Does it matter to you?
August 23, 2021 7:44 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #4
It was a joke because most people have 10 fingers unless they've lost one in an accident or something
August 23, 2021 8:14 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #5
Also Icbrgr I mean she would have never been gathering the herbs like she was when she met him
August 23, 2021 8:15 p.m.
Wendithewendigo Not sure where that’s supposed to go. By statistics, most people don’t identify as non-binary so I suppose that means we can generally categorize humans as a ten-fingered, binary species? I was trying to stay away from generalizations as that’s typically where basing things on characteristics leads you. But I’ll take the joke, laugh, and move on.
August 23, 2021 8:18 p.m. Edited.
Im confused... Liliana's origin story (streamlined as I understood it anyway) Is shes a royal/priestess who dabbles in black magic...brother falls sick... raven man offers/encourages black magic solution to save her brother... brother becomes zombie...the trauma from the experience ignites her spark as a planswalker... cue the rest of the story.
like...are you saying all of this because she is a woman or because she happens to be a woman?
August 23, 2021 8:35 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #8
She starts dabbling in black magic because of an all woman school of healing. They send her to gather herbs for a potion to heal her brother. When she goes to harvest the herbs all the herbs are dead. Raven man comes and offers to revive the plants but poisons the herbs as well making her brother get poisoned and go insane (though he is cured of his previous curse)
August 23, 2021 8:43 p.m.
Wendithewendigo The impact of the the story arc would be the same if you flipped everyone’s gender. Or even if man Liliana’s sibling was a brother. Her gender just means she went to an all girls school but if she were a man and was written to go to an all boys school, the story would, generally speaking, be just as cohesive. Writers could have written it a number of ways in which a characteristic of her’s was changed and written in with accommodation.
August 23, 2021 8:56 p.m. Edited.
Wendithewendigo says... #10
Which leads us back to why representation is important. You could say that same thing about making every character a cishet white able bodied nerotypical male. Which now that I think of it lilliana falls into all of those but male
August 23, 2021 10:38 p.m.
Wendithewendigo I not only don’t see the connection you just attempted to make but what are you even saying?
August 23, 2021 10:44 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #12
If you did make all characters male like you say would make no difference it plummets representation. (I had poor wording there)
August 23, 2021 10:47 p.m.
Wendithewendigo If, then statement. Again, I don’t understand what you’re saying.
August 23, 2021 10:55 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #14
Oof_Magic You not caring is something different from it not mattering though. Going to a club with a female friend will result in your friend being treated differently by other clubgoers than if she'd been male. Someone with a hook for a hand will get lots of looks and questions, even though you don't care he lost the hand in an accident. It will severely shape the way he experiences the world, and react to it. Stories and motivations develop even outside your care, individuals are shaped by everything that exerts an influence on them, even things as small as a compliment about how you look. Mundane details may not always be part of character arcs, but they are part of the story that's being told, and you not seeing use for them, doesn't mean there is none.
Your cold analysis of how you don't care for those things, then extrapolated to the lengths of how they aren't worthy of mentioning in storytelling, even ruining the magic in Magic: the Gathering for you... It invalidates anyone whose experiences were shaped by being treated differently just for showing characteristics you mention you don't care for, and found support by reading stories about it. In a post-#MeToo and -BLM society, I find that an astounding amount of detachment from reality, blindfolding yourself from the very real problems existing still today, caused by discrimination based on nothing but the characteristics you mention, dismissing them as meaningless flavor. You only seem to care about the hero template, not the individual that lives the adventure. Yes, you could write an equally enticing story about power-hungry demon soul-selling revolving around an overweight black man with blonde hair and crab-claws for hands. But it would not be Liliana, and the fact that you don't think that matters, or even is true, is something we will apparently disagree on forever.
August 23, 2021 11:49 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #16
I keep getting updates and decided to see how and why this thread is still going.
Oof_Magic, I am going to ask you an unbelievably direct question: Do you have Asperger's?
The reason I am asking is because not just one, but two of my friends have Asperger's. One friend can not feel any emotion. He knows what it means to laugh, and he is smart enough to know when he probably should laugh, but he doesn't feel happiness or joy or pleasure. He also doesn't feel sorrow or sadness or pain. When someone tells him a joke, he knows he should probably laugh, so he forces out this absurd and fake laugh. When something incredibly tragic happens, like when my dad died and I needed a friend to turn to, his response was a very melodramatic, mono-toned "that sucks."
My other friend, who also has Asperger's, is also the exact same way. But he isn't just unable to feel emotions, but pain and taste and smell. His entire world is bland and dull. He experiences life in perpetual gray areas.
The reason I am asking is because, reading your level of detachment and unwillingness to even try to view life through another lens, honestly it reminds me of both of my friends. Being literally unable to comprehend something outside of your own view of the world. Unable to react. Unable to feel.
Maybe I am projecting, but I am 32 and both of these guys I've known since high school, so from 2003 - 2007. I've known them for half my life, and merely reading your questions and replies is astonishingly similar to both of them.
You don't need to reply. You don't need to answer.
But maybe, if you have never been tested, you should consider it. The world is a dark and lonely place as it is. There's no reason to make it even darker, my friend <3
August 24, 2021 2:39 a.m.
TypicalTimmy I’ve never been given a diagnosis for Asperger’s. I gave it a brief overread. Would it make others feel better to believe I can’t feel emotions?
August 24, 2021 2:57 a.m.
I think it's a little uncouth to ask people if they have a mental illness/disorder or history of such things when observing essentially "unstoppable force meeting immovable object" discussions online.
Following it up with "you dont have to answer" is like saying "with all due respect" and then saying whatever you want.
August 24, 2021 10:08 a.m.
Grubbernaut says... #19
The inclusion crowd jumping to "you might have mental illness if you disagree" is not a good look.
This thread is terrible.
August 24, 2021 10:41 a.m.
i don't know about crowds... but it is true that this is a deck building website not really a diagnosis center
August 24, 2021 11:06 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #21
Who cares right? It would be a meaningless characteristic that couldn't impact the story anyway, and in no way, shape or form could sculpt motivations and worldviews or drive conflict, so why mention it at all?
/sarcasm
August 24, 2021 11:13 a.m.
plakjekaas Thanks for your insightful and thought out response.
August 24, 2021 11:20 a.m.
Following this thread the best way I can summarize what's happened so far is there is an angle stating that writing is shallow when a characters emotional problems, sexual orientation, physical attributes define a character/becomes their personality. Another angle stating inclusiveness is important for opening a bridge for more consumers/readers of Magic the gathering to relate to.
I think both angles are correct especially from a capitalism angle.... increasing/growing or targeting specific audiences can generate more interest and sales. WOTC is pretty good at making money; and knows when and where said demographics can be targeted I.E. China vs USA.... I think this is why Chandra and Nissa are a contentious topic because rumor has is that lore was retconned for the sake of marketability in various regions.
Lilliana Vess is a character who has been around for many years and has been in many adventures throughout magic the gatherings lore/history. Niko Aris is very new and hasnt had time/attenton to realy prove "thyself" (idk how to use the right pronoun forgive me) however has lots of potential to develop into a more beloved character. The same is true for any of the other new planswalkers we will meet in the infinite planes of the multiverse.
August 24, 2021 1:20 p.m.
wtf how did this explosion of conversation happen with out my big mouth and endless two cents!!! This is an easy one. first off i am a person and therefore i am speaking to people. i am not representing or putting down any groups or individuals. . Some people are not going to accept you. its best to come to terms with this early on because continuing to seek there approval will lead to a unhealthy mental state. Also some people will hate you. Often you may not even understand why, But again its best to come to terms with this.. . Now that the ugly part is out of the way, lets discuss what you can do about it.. You can control yourself, you can not control others.. You can control what you think, how you feel, how you will react, what you say, what you do.. you can not control what others think, how they feel, how they will react to you, what they say to you, or what they might do to you..... this is why we have boundaries because another thing you can control is your contact with others, how close you let others get to you, and you can remove yourself from any situation . see truth is everyone needs validation, they just don't need it from everyone.. this is why people surround them self's with like minded people while avoiding people with conflicting mind sets. when enough like minded people connect movements start and yes it is natural and normal for these movements to want advertisement, representation, & acceptance, in order to reach more like minded people. Its these movements that has/does/and will shape the society we live in. but here is the part were things get complicated. when you encounter these groups your options are to fit in or remove yourself. they have no right to change you, and you have no right to change them. because the harsh truth is even if its a hate group that hates you. its the same rights to think and feel the way they do that your using to think and feel the way you do.. . So with this knowledge if you are able to understand how websites like this one are successfully formed. you should also be able to understand your options.
August 24, 2021 1:35 p.m.
Thank you, Icbrgr and Ram for your balanced and detailed analyses.
Icbrgr: I believe that companies will use incentives that primarily aim to grow their revenue stream and secondarily increase their market reach. Those incentives can be aimed at reward and punishment. ‘This product will make your life easier,’ and ‘Don’t get caught without our product.’
Liliana and older characters are not necessarily better or more relatable than newer characters like Niko. They just have more depth by virtue of having their motivations challenged over years of development.
Ram: Thank you for advocating personal responsibility for one’s own emotions. One doesn’t have to accept what anyone says or thinks and that’s on them. Hopefully, we can attempt to be respectfully understanding, even with positions we don’t agree with.
August 24, 2021 2:29 p.m. Edited.
I agree that its not guaranteed for everyone to agree or like eachother. but suppression of conversations between peers discussing the changes and development of Magic the Gathering as a game/universe is questionable.
its perfectly fine to find yourself in a situation in which no progress is possible, especially because of disagreement; a deadlock... I wouldnt want to be in a "convert or die" environment personally.
August 24, 2021 2:36 p.m.
Icbrgr both good examples, in first example you do not have the authority to control if your opinions are suppressed. but you can control were and if you share them. If you feel your opinions are being suppressed then your in an unhealthy environment why fight to stay?
Actually it's the same answer for both your examples lol
August 24, 2021 3:24 p.m.
i dont; it was in regards to the original post and original and closed and copied threads.
August 24, 2021 3:30 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #31
I'm not sure all of that is entirely true, at least not always.
There are a ton of companies that make terrible decisions to promote a political ideal, lose a ton of money, and still defend the decision.
August 24, 2021 3:56 p.m.
Truth ain't always pretty and I have no right to speak on behalf of the owner or mods of this website
But if I was to speculate I would say that it isn't that deep. I would think the owner and mods just do this for the love of magic. I bet it's alot of hard work and that any post regardless of the topic,right,wrong,indifferent if it disturbs the peace and takes focus off of magic would be shutdown and out. Much like when your in the middle of a game and someone asks you to take the trash out
August 24, 2021 4:08 p.m.
Grubbernaut I think that the intention holds true but isn’t always a success in execution. If you’re pushing something you know is wrong, you’re banking on it being popular. If you’re banking on something you know isn’t popular, you’re banking on it being right. If you defend your stance after losing money, I think that (right or wrong) means you believe in what you believe. That’s an oversimplification but I think it generally holds true.
August 24, 2021 4:23 p.m. Edited.
I dont think this post has anything more or less to do with Magic than this post but one was closed.... yet this post doesnt suffer any consequence for not focusing on magic.
having a one sided conversation or only one narrative allowed is kinda sketch.
August 24, 2021 4:45 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #35
Icbrgr that’s because the post you linked too that got closed was full of inflammatory statements.
This forum isn’t for just magic chatter only. The blind eternities forum has existed for a long time and contains basically 0 references to MTG.
The OP of the removed post was purposely being inflammatory and reposted the same thing word for word multiple times. Clearly either a troll, or someone who doesn’t care about rules in a civilized society. Free speech exists. But consequences of your speech also exist.
August 24, 2021 4:50 p.m.
Daveslab2022 What was inflammatory? I wasn’t trying to be inflammatory. Please don’t assume my motives.
I’ll keep the BE forum in mind for the future. I didn’t know what kind of topic that was supposed to be.
Consequences of speech are fine but I don’t get to punch someone for saying something inflammatory. I would never think to tell someone they can’t speak because they said something that made me feel uncomfortable but not threatened. Consequences should be dispensed with a level of conduct.
August 24, 2021 5:08 p.m. Edited.
Daveslab2022 says... #37
What was inflammatory? The fact that you’re even asking this proves you’re just trolling. But I’ll humor you.
You said you made the post in response to another thread in which users related to characters based on their personality or characters traits.
In the post you said it’s “a shallow exercise” to do so.
After literally just reading through an entire thread of people who said that they do so.
You were purposely trying to either start an argument, or create an echo chamber with only people who agree with you.
Why do you need to make a new thread about what that thread is literally already about? Your asking for people’s opinion but you had an ENTIRE thread full of people’s opinions on that topic. Why do you need to make a new one shitting on all of the people in that thread?
August 24, 2021 5:12 p.m.
Your right there are consequences to speech...and consequences for not speaking....perhaps one day when your posts are shut down you will understand.
August 24, 2021 5:20 p.m.
You're basing all of this off of YOUR perception of "uncomfortable but not threatening". I would argue that statements such as the ones you have made would be considered threatening to many individuals who consistently find themselves marginalized by society. Just try, for a moment, to imagine how they feel. Many of them have lived the majority of their lives either afraid to admit to the public or even themselves their true feelings for fear of lash back from the very communities they find themselves in or want to contribute to. Society is finally making a valid push to inclusion, while not perfect, substantially more people are trying to make our society not only safer, but happier for people who once felt oppressed. Mass media is making an effort (in good and bad ways admittedly) to bring these forms of representation to the public normalizing what was once considered taboo. Now along come your statements, and while polite in their phrasing, the meaning behind it is a harsh rejection of these newfound feelings of inclusion and for some, even happiness. They would perceive that as a threat, I know I would. A return to a time in which there is no representation would be semi-equivalent to a dark age for many individuals in our society now.
August 24, 2021 5:23 p.m.
Daveslab2022 You don’t think it’s at all possible that I was trying to engage with people who disagree? Or is that what you think of as trolling? I come in to an echo chamber and because I’m the one with a dissenting opinion, I’m a troll? Why would I be on a thread full of dissent if I was looking to make an echo chamber? I don’t know what’s wrong with the term shallow to refer to skin deep characteristics? Don’t you think the term troll could be seen as inflammatory? As you can see by my thread, I haven’t used it as a means of ‘shutting on those people’. I explicitly stated I wouldn’t link them because I wasn’t making the post as a board from which to launch personal attacks but to voice opinion.
Icbrgr I did have a post shut down. It didn’t help me to understand how ‘shallow’ as a reference of skin deep characteristics is a threat.
Scytec A threat has a clear objective definition. I made no action to physically hurt anyone. Clearly insults don’t qualify as a threat as I’ve seen a lot over the course of the discussion. I don’t seek retaliation for that. When ‘threat’ becomes subjective, everything becomes threatening. I’ve seen how seriously my feelings are taken on this platform. And that doesn’t bother me. It validated how seriously I take the feelings of others. As mentioned by Ram, it’s on individuals to be responsible for their feelings.
August 24, 2021 5:30 p.m.
Icbrgr the difference between the three links is one of them upset people enough to contact a mod
Oof_Magic can I ask whats so important about this? Your statement can still be publicly read it was closed not delted. I'm asking as someone who has pushed the envelope here and even butted heads with the same mod but at the end of the day there really not bad people, even the owner personally has given you there attention, and all of them have allowed this topic to grow to almost 4 pages. When is enough enough?
August 24, 2021 5:34 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #42
Again, we're just digging this hole further.
Saying "if you disagree with someone, they get to decide if that's a literal threat or not" is a dangerous precedent to set.
Can literally nothing exist without someone crying about oppression in the comments?
August 24, 2021 5:37 p.m.
Do you think mods have not been contacted about this thread? Or is this thread less inflammatory than before?
August 24, 2021 5:38 p.m.
Ramble
I think you’re right. I’ve made my point and I’m not serving anyone to repeat what I’ve already written. If they choose to see it a certain way, that’s on them. Thanks.
August 24, 2021 5:41 p.m.
The point I was trying to make is that threats do not have to be physical in nature. Assaulting some ones mental wellbeing can be just as bad as assaulting some one physically. Many things can exist without people screaming oppression in the comments, but when the topic you're discussing is a form of oppression in itself...it will probably come up. Every mod I know of has been in this thread at one point or another, this discussion is not being elevated to the same heightened emotions as the previous threads, calm minds are apt to allow discussion.
August 24, 2021 5:44 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #46
I’m going to respond to your comment in sections. The quotation marks are your quotes.
“You don’t think it’s at all possible that I was trying to engage with people who disagree?
No, it’s not at all possible. If that’s what you wanted, you would’ve just continued in the original thread. That seems pretty darn obvious.
“I come in to an echo chamber and because I’m the one with a dissenting opinion, I’m a troll?”
No, if you would’ve stayed in that thread with your opinion, that’s fine. But to make a post just to find people who agree with you, is pretty darn weird. We know that’s why you made the post, because a post stating the opposite was already made. You made a post about that post.
“Why would I be on a thread full of dissent if I was looking to make an echo chamber?”
You weren’t on a thread full of dissent. You made your own to create an echo chamber, and when it didn’t work you got defensive.
“I don’t know what’s wrong with the term shallow to refer to skin deep characteristics?”
If you think sexuality or personality traits are “skin-deep” then you don’t know what skin-deep means. Those are defining characteristics of the character. They are certainly not skin-deep, and I’ve already explained MULTIPLE TIMES with MULTIPLE EXAMPLES why that’s not true and you still don’t seem to understand.
“Don’t you think the term troll could be seen as inflammatory?”
Not in the context that I used it. I said there are multiple options, and that you being a troll is just one of them.
“As you can see by my thread, I haven’t used it as a means of ‘shutting on those people’.”
Yes you have. You’re still saying it’s shallow or that it doesn’t make sense to relate to a character based on their personality. The entire premise of this thread is to shit on those people. So the longer this thread lasts, the more you are attempting to shit on them.
“I explicitly stated I wouldn’t link them because I wasn’t making the post as a board from which to launch personal attacks but to voice opinion“
There already was a forum post for which to share your opinion.
It’s not proper or polite to make an entire post responding to someone else’s comments in a post. If you disagree, that’s fine. But to say that those people are shallow is rude.
August 24, 2021 6:14 p.m.
As a trans woman, I find these threads great. Not because the OP is making any good points, but because all the assholes come out of the woodwork to tell on themselves and I get to block a bunch of them and move on with more important things.
Instead of arguing with an asshole who thinks they have some enlightened point, just block them and move on. There is no point to us trying to win hearts and minds with these people who think that my gender is some kind of shallow trait, focus on the folks around you and supporting them.
August 24, 2021 6:27 p.m.
Daveslab2022 How do I enable a separate chat?
Thank you for making the free speech case, LeaPlath. I would think there is more to you than some characteristic(s) you have and I wish you all the best in your pursuits.
August 24, 2021 6:35 p.m.
Oh, no this isn't the free speech case. I am against free speech. Specifically yours. Infact, I believe the government should specifically intervene and hire a very large person with a meat tenderizer to hit your hands every time you post.
But what do I know. I'm a simple trans woman with no inner life with all the depth of a paddling pool.
August 24, 2021 6:49 p.m.
LeaPlath that was pretty incendiary and very much so goes along the ideas of assaulting some ones mental wellbeing can be just as bad as assaulting some one physically... to elevate your own status in the fashion that you have very much so undermines any championship of equality and acceptance.
Wendithewendigo says... #1
She would have never been in the situation with the raven man to begin with if not for her being a woman
August 23, 2021 6:41 p.m.