Making this Thread Because Steam has a 1,000 Character Limit

The Blind Eternities forum

Posted on April 11, 2016, 10:18 p.m. by Femme_Fatale

One of the things I've noticed is that both the pyro and engineer have the potential to be the classes that Valve is trying for them to be, but are just not there yet and require more push in those directions. This thread presents theoretical ideas to satisfy the potential these two classes have. The TL;DR is really just a link to a pastebin that shows only the stats. At the very bottom is a list of edits.

(Probably the biggest reference point for the distances displayed here is that in 2-Fort, the hammer unit distance of "no-mans land" is approximately 2,300 long and 1,030 wide. The second biggest is the damage fall-off and ramp-up graph.)

The Pyro:

My goal for the Pyro is at first to give a general all around buff to it, letting it stand more of a chance against the many more powerful classes. Next, it is to allow newer players an alternative style of play. Currently, the skill level of both backburner+detonator pyro and airblast+flare gun pyro is much too high for newer players to get into, and thus those that wish to play Pyro are stuck with doing W+M1 tactics since that is the most effective method that their skills allow. By providing alternatives that don't require as much skill I'm able to teach newer players the different aspects of the pyro while still providing a much needed buff to the class.

There are a few general stat changes I feel that would give the pyro a general buff in terms of both damage, range and mobility. First, the afterburn debuff should deal 6 damage per tick for 5 seconds instead of 3 damage per tick for 10 seconds. Total damage output is the same (60), but it is faster. However it still isn't enough for classes like the scout to worry about it before reaching a point of water or health, but still allows the pyro an increased damage output per second over-all. It also doesn't frustrate players as much, because being on fire longer is apparently more frustrating. (Also ends up buffing cowmangler and huo-long heater.)

All flame particles should have the physics generated on them by the pyro's momentum increase by 25%, and the momentum applied on to the pyro via flare jumping should increase by 25%. This allows for more effective use of combo combat like detonator jumping to axtinguish an opponent.



Pyro's Primaries:

Phlogistinator (changes):

  • 10% increased damage.
  • Build 'Mmmph' by dealing damage.
  • Alt-Fire on full "Mmmph': Taunt to gain full health and 3 second invulnerability.
  • Invulnerable while 'Mmmph' taunting.
  • No random critical hits.
  • No airblast

Really, who thought the controlled crits were a good idea?


Napalm Launcher (new primary):

  • Stats same as stock flamethrower.
  • No airblast.
  • Alt-fire: Launch a milk/jarate physics based projectile that shatters on contact with a surface or enemy player unleashing napalm surrounding an a circular area with a diamater of 600 hammer units for 75 ammo.
  • Napalm deals 15 damage per second, lasts for 10 seconds and applies afterburn status.
  • Napalm damage doesn't stack and has a 30 second cooldown across all weapons.


The main idea for this is to give pyros a use against groups of enemies, control points and payload carts without all of the sudden being subjected to a large amount of fire that would instantly kill them. While in pubs a W+M1 pyro can do some work, any team with coordination will kill pyros before they can do anything. The pyro then resorts to being a 1v1 wanderer that stalks the outlines of maps for weakened players, flanking behind others, and picking off classes that generally don't want to be on the point. The napalm being unable to stack damage is an important aspect primarily for pubs to prevent a group of pyros crouching around a dispenser and just spamming the point or cart or intel with napalm. You may be allowed to cover lots of ground, but at no point should you be allowed to stack 60 damage per second over for how ever long those pyros stay alive for.


Smoke Screener (new primary):

  • Stats same as stock flamethrower.
  • No airblast.
  • Alt-Fire: Launches a blast of smoke directly in front of the player that has a diameter of 400 Hu. Deals no damage but enemy players cannot see through it.
  • Hit detection noises are negated for enemy ranged attacks that come in contact with the smoke.
  • Smoke dissipates immediately if airblasted.
  • Smoke has a 30 second cooldown across all weapons, costs 25 ammo and lasts for 10 seconds.
  • Smoke reaches maximum volume within 1 second of alt-fire, stays at max for 6 seconds, and dissipates from max volume to 0 within 3 seconds.


The ability to negate vision is something that has never been explored in TF2. While cloaking is something similar, the complete negation of information from a certain angle is certainly an interesting concept to explore. This would require heightened communication from the team to discern where and what the enemy is. The biggest benefit however would be to allow the pyro to disorient the enemy so they can properly run up and flank them, allowing for tactical use of the flamethrower. The hit detection negation is to prevent enemy players from tracking players with the hit detection, which would render the smoke useless. It also prevents the sniper from having a line of sight to your teammates.



Pyro's secondaries:

The shotgun and reserve shooter I don't want to touch. Nor do I want to touch the switching speed or any switch speed bonuses. These are all solid at the current moment and satisfy different gameplays (shotgun in particular for pyro vs pyro and pyro vs scout). Instead, I want to focus primarily on the flare gun and alternatives.


Flare Gun (changes):

  • 35 base damage.
  • 50% damage ramp-up maxing at 1024 hammer units.
  • 100% mini-crits versus stationary players.
  • 100% critical hit versus burning players.


The damage ramp-up and stationary targets promote the use of the support use of this weapon. Putting pressure on long distance enemies is a tactic that the pyro normally cannot due, but is pivotal to the role of a support class. The flare gun's hard to aim nature tied with this allows the pyro to focus on long distance enemies that are focusing on an objective or harassing the enemy team themselves, like the sniper or an engineer in his nest.


Detonator (changes):

  • 30 base damage.
  • 18-32 flare detonation.
  • 25-30 flare explosion.
  • 100% mini-crits versus burning players.
  • 15% damage increase per additional player hit.


I did not put any ramp-up or stationary increase for this one due to the detonation making it easier to hit at longer range than the flare gun. The damage increase per player hit is the one stat that that can easily be modified, though 10% I think is the lowest I would go. I wouldn't go any higher than 20% either.


Scorch Shot (changes):

  • 25 base damage.
  • Flare knocks back enemies on hit.
  • 50% damage ramp-up maxing at 1024 hammer units.
  • 100% critical hit versus all players under the effects of a non-healing buff or debuff.


For the Scorch Shot, I removed the automatic explosion once it hit a ground. This just encouraged players to not get good at aiming with the Flare Gun or even the proper timing with The Detonator. Removing that entire function and focusing it on more of the support role the pyro is where I wanted to go.


Mannmelter (changes):

  • 40 base damage.
  • +50% Projectile speed.
  • Does not require ammo.
  • All players connected via medic gun beams are hit.
  • Alt-Fire: Remove a negative status effect from a teammate to gain guaranteed critical hits and 20 health.
  • No random critical hits.


I honestly forgot about the Mannmelter. I never see anyone use it and I never use it myself, so it just paced by unnoticed. However, it was brought to my attention, and yes, it does need a buff. I wanted to focus on the extinguishing trait, but instead had it apply to anything. Milk, jarate, bleeding, on fire, marked for death (not due to equip) and other like effects are potential negative status effects one can remove. Then, one can launch the critical hit on a medic and his pocket (a trait I originally intended for the Scorch Shot). Do note that the controlled crit nature means that the crits on burning enemies and random crits cannot occur.


Napalm Flare (new secondary):

  • Same as Detonator.
  • Alt-Fire: Projectile detonates, launching napalm on the ground in a circular area of diameter 200 hammer units. Detonation deals no damage.
  • Napalm deals 15 damage per second, lasts for 5 seconds and applies afterburn status.
  • Napalm damage does not stack, and has a 15 second cooldown.
  • Still deals damage to self, can flare jump.


If this weapon were to be implemented in the game on its own, I would be against it mainly due to the controlled crit state the phlogistinator is currently in. But if the phlog were to change towards full health only on taunt, I would gladly enjoy playing both together, and be fine with enemies playing it. Other than that, having it be a smaller effect as the Napalm Launcher I thought would be important as it is not the main aspect of the pyro should the player choose it as the secondary. It serves as more of a supporting role to whatever the pyro is playing. It is also smaller as it is the primary function of this weapon, and thus the player should be allowed to use it more frequently. The flare jumping aspect is something I feel that benefits the pyro greatly in order to properly flank, and more weapons to allow for flare jumping the better. The lack of mobility the pyro has for needing to get within very close range I feel is very restricting of the class's ability to function.


Smoke Piston (new secondary):


- Same as Detonator.- Alt-Fire: Projectile detonates, launching a smoke at point of detonation that has a diameter of 400 Hu. Deals no damage but enemy players cannot see through it.- Hit detection noises are negated for enemy ranged attacks that come in contact with the smoke.- Smoke dissipates immediately if airblasted.- Smoke has a 30 second cooldown across all weapons and lasts for 10 seconds.- Smoke reaches maximum volume within 3 seconds of alt-fire, stays at max for 5 seconds, and dissipates from max volume to zero within 2 seconds.- Still deals damage to self, can flare jump.


The only real differences between this and the Smoke Screener in terms of the smoke itself is that this is more useful as a utility tool to help the team out instead of yourself. You can more effectively smoke out snipers with this without much fear of getting sniped, and you can set up your advances and flanking without already having to be up in their face. To compensate for this, it the smoke takes longer to spread out to max volume, and dissipates faster. The cooldown across all weapons is due to preventing smoke spam, which would be an irritance and not fun to play against. You can still cover the same area or a large area with smoke with more pyros, but it isn't very effective.



The Engineer:

For the engineer, my goal is allowing different styles of play beyond just camping at the nest or roaming the outskirts of the map plucking off players. Like with the pyro, I'm going to achieve this goal by focusing on the engineer's secondary. Or lack there-of. This, along with the PDA, is probably the most bland aspect of the engineer, there are very limited options available and consequently, restricts players in how they play the class.

While Valve never really intended for the engineer to be mobile, new weapon introductions, different class stats and all that jazz meant that what originally applied for the engineer wasn't very applicable anymore. As such, applications like moving your buildings and the Gunslinger allowed for the engineer to be mobile and increase interactivity and responsiveness the engineer has to the environment. The bulk of the secondaries (and PDA) are meant to focus on this shift in thinking, allowing the engineer to have an increasingly varied style of play to match whatever his environment is.



Discus (new secondary):

  • Fires a projectile (speed of a baseball) that travels 250 hammer units before disintegrating.
  • Projectile goes perfectly straight and horizontal. Does not fall nor can it be launched upward or downward.
  • Once the projectile lands/stops/disintegrates, the engineer teleports to its location. If it hits a wall, building or enemy player, right behind the projectile. If it hits a floor or stops mid air, right above it.
  • Can fire once every 20 seconds.
  • No telefrags.


The discus I want to use to give the engineer a sort of "get away" option. The discus isn't meant to do anything extravagant, but can be the life or death in simply getting around a corner to get away and reach that health pack. While I understand there's the Eureka Effect, and if you reduce the animation time by 1 second it'd become more viable; there's a difference between these two in that you aren't left vulnerable for a short period of time with the Discus, but in contrast it is not a guaranteed get away.


The Toolbox (new secondary):

  • +30 max health and metal.
  • 10% decreased ammo and metal pick-up from ammo crates and buildings.


This focuses on the really heavy combat engineer. The additional metal is balanced out by the decreased ammo gain. I feel that although Widowmaker engies probably will not like this, stock shotgun engies do. The biggest concern I have is if 30 is too powerful in that stock sentry and dispenser can be built without resupplying at once. If so, then debuff it to 25.


Scavenger (new pistol secondary):


  • 10 base damage.
  • 50% decreased clip size.
  • On hit: Gain 5 metal.


Now this, in contrast to The Toolbox, is definitely for the Widowmaker, allowing the engineer to gain an additional shot, potentially 2, for the Widowmaker.


Scrap Heap (new secondary):

  • 175 max metal.
  • Regenerates 2 metal per second.


I thought that the engineer having a portable metal regeneration box would be an interesting idea. An engineer would no longer have to rely on picking up metal boxes or camp at a dispenser all the time, however at the same time, the engineer can not rely on this alone as it doesn't generate metal fast enough. Same thing can be said for combat engies too.



The PDA

My idea for the PDA is not any stat changes, but rather complete building changes.

The problem with changing the engineer with the ideas I have set up is that it is incredibly hard to balance the engineer's buildings. New buildings generate a drastically different play-style that can change the environment in ways unprecedented. In this, much of what I've suggested are just mechanical replacements, in that their functional ideas are what is necessary. Their stats can, and most definitely should, be more balanced when it comes to testing.

This PDA is designed for an engineer who wants to get more into the thick and thin, doesn't have to rely on having a singular nest, and can hide their buildings in difficult to notice locations while not reducing their value to the team.

For most of these buildings, their health, build cost, build speed, upgrade rate and repair rate are all the same as the default, unless specified. I find that these are a little harder to properly balance without extensive in-game testing, which obviously cannot be done with an idea only on paper.



The Advanced Plan (new PDA):

Teleporter (building #3):

  • Costs 150 metal to build.
  • 25 second build time.
  • No exit teleporter.
  • 25% slower recharge rate.
  • Teleports player to the engineer's position (or where he was 1 second ago).
  • Teleports the engineer to building #2.
  • Recharge rate independent of active status.
  • Displays distance engineer is from teleporter to those looking at it.
  • No Telefrags.

Lvl 1:

  • Only active when engineer is alive and within 2,000 hammer units of building #3 or within 750 hammer units of building #2.

Lvl 2:

  • Only active when engineer is alive and within 2,750 hammer units of building #3 or within 1,000 hammer units of building #2.

Lvl 3:

  • Only active when engineer is alive and within 3,500 hammer units of building #3 or within 1,500 hammer units of building #2.


Now, this teleporter is, once again, mainly for the combat engineer in mind. However, it is one that is designed to work with the rest of the buildings, as you'll see later. The engineer is required to keep an active mind about his own buildings, but not as much as a nest. With no exact exit, the teleporter is only functional for as long as the engineer is alive, and as long as engineer is within a moderately safe distance.

It is especially useful for combat engineers, as all of the sudden they now have reinforcements on their side if they are in the middle of combat. The teleported player will be facing the direction the engineer was. Also, the engineer will be able to see his distance from his own buildings.

This is balanced in a way that killing the engineer removes the ability for the team to teleport, but it is not entirely easy to kill the engineer because of the team being able to teleport to the engineer.

If you are wondering about one-hit kill instances when you teleport ... is that any different from having the teleporter camped? I would say it is better as the enemy isn't prepared for you to appear out of thin air.

The active status distance I feel is the stat that can easily change to balance this teleporter out.



Beacon (building #2):

  • 16 second build speed.
  • Whenever this beacon is hit by a pulse of another friendly beacon, reduce the percentage of recovery/regeneration of the next pulse by 25%.

Lvl 1:

  • Fires a spherical pulse every 10 seconds that travels 750 hammer units in 3 seconds.
  • Friendly players hit by this pulse recover/regenerate 14% health, ammo, metal and cloak. Removes negative status effects.

Lvl 2:

  • Fires a spherical pulse every 8 seconds that travels 1,000 hammer units in 3 seconds.
  • Friendly players hit by this pulse recover/regenerate 17% health, ammo, metal and cloak. Removes negative status effects.

Lvl 3:

  • Fires a spherical pulse every 6 seconds that travels 1,250 hammer units in 3 seconds.
  • Friendly players hit by this pulse recover/regenerate 20% health, ammo, metal and cloak. Removes negative status effects.


The beacon I really like. Instead of a player huddling around a dispenser which is usually easily to surprise attack around the corner, the team is in the midst of the enemy getting a general boost to overcome and survive. It is not meant to replenish the team fully like a dispenser, but give them a better chance at survival in defending or capping a point. Your team will still have to hunt out for medic packs and ammo kits if they are low as they are vulnerable for a much longer time if they rely on this.

The best part of the beacon? Hiding it. Since players don't need to be right next to it as the pulse can go through walls, you can put it in hidden locations. In this, I would like the beacon to appear about the height of a dispenser, but just a small rod with a circular platform in front of it (the teleporter location for the engineer, also a good spot to put the sapper). Also, the pulse could be invisible to the enemy team, this is up for debate. Additionally, when building a beacon, the engineer can see the max range of their lvl 3 beacon as the same blue sphere that occurs when building a sentry. They can also see the ranges of other beacons while building their own, but they show up as red. There would also be a marker on the Hud next to the beacon lvl showing how many other beacons are within its range.

Finally, there's the diminishing returns with these. For each additional beacon within the range of another, their regeneration and recovery output is decreased. What this turns out to be is that for 2 and 3 beacons each within the same range, the volume that all of them cover will have a 50% increased recovery/regeneration, but the areas where only one of them are occupying, their recovery is decreased by 25% for each Bbacon. For 2 beacons, their combined area is 150% but individual is 75%. For 3 beacons, their combined area is 150% but individual is 50%. For 4 beacons, their combined area is 100%, but individual is 25%. For 5 beacons, well, anything above 4 means that the beacons give out nothing at all.



Now I come to the bulk of the engineer's upgrades: The Sentry Gun.

There have been many players who have had this idea. The biggest problem with it is that it is probably one of the hardest things to implement and balance for Valve. I'm talking about the Mecha Sentry Gun.

Basically this is a sentry gun that, at all 3 levels, becomes equipped to the engineer, and changes his stats slightly, all the while shooting at the enemy. How these are built are that they are placed on the ground like a normal sentry, but are inactive for as long as they are on the ground. When you pick them up, you do the equip animation which takes 3, 4 or 5 seconds per level respectively. The same is applied for when you put them down.

I thought about separating the sentry and the engineer and thought that might make things too complicated. So for all instances, the engineer and sentry gun equipment, are considered as one entity. If you kill the engineer, the sentry gun gets destroyed. In this, you cannot repair the sentry as it has no health for as long as it is equipped. You also cannot equip a sentry unless it has full health. A spy cannot sap the sentry when it is equipped, but he can still backstab you and destroy the sentry that way. The sentry has its own ammo supply which can be replenished by picking up ammo boxes.

(As an aside, is the default sentry gun's range 1024 Hu or 1100 Hu? I found two different sources. Wiki says 1100 but the Mapper's Reference says 1024.)


Sentry Gun:

Lvl 1:

  • Becomes attached to the engineer's head when equipped.
  • +25 health on equip.
  • 10% decreased move speed on equip.
  • 512 hammer units targeting range (50% of default sentry range).
  • 180 degrees targeting angle [(can't target behind the engineer).
  • 75% faster sentry rotation speed.
  • 6 base damage per bullet.
  • 6 shots per second.
  • 12 shots per second wrangled.
  • When using wrangler, engineer becomes shielded, can't move and has 450 health.

Lvl 2:

  • Engineer can't use Primary when equipped.
  • Engineer rides the sentry when equipped.
  • +65 health on equip.
  • 15% decreased move speed on equip.
  • 718 hammer units targeting range (75% of default sentry range).
  • 180 degrees targeting angle (can't target behind the engineer).
  • 50% faster sentry rotation speed.
  • 8 base damage per bullet.
  • 8 shots per second.
  • 20 shots per second wrangled.
  • When using wrangler, engineer becomes shielded, can't move and has 600 health.

Lvl 3:

  • Engineer can't use any weapon when equipped.
  • Engineer rides the sentry inside when equipped.
  • Engineer fully controls sentry (sentry does not auto-target nor auto-shoot).
  • +100 health on equip.
  • 35% decreased move speed on equip.
  • 10% slower engineer rotation speed.
  • 8 base damage per bullet.
  • 8 shots per second.
  • 50-150 damage for rockets, firing once every 3 seconds. Rocket damage is affected by fall-off.

If the Mecha Sentry Gun is too powerful, there are very simple methods to debuffing it.

  • Sentry gun cannot fire if engineer has not come into contact with a beacon pulse within the past 10 seconds.
  • Engineer receives reduced healing (scaling higher per level). 5%, 15%, 30% per level respectively.


Do note that the engineer can still move around with the sentry equipped and still gains its stat changes with the beacon pulse debuff idea above, the sentry just simply cannot fire. Additionally, it promotes cooperation with other Advanced Plan engineers to cover more ground with the combined beacons.

Now, this is really different. Each level of sentry provides a different style of combat sentry play. You no longer have the area denial that is so signature to the engineer, and instead get increased damage. In fact, that is something that all these sentry levels have. They all have their area denial trait of them removed for more interaction from the player.

One can have a level 1 which is a much weaker mini-sentry that you can wear. It looks like a smaller version of the gunslinger and goes on your head. This focuses on mobility and roaming. Excellent for combat engineer styles of play.

A level 2 sentry effectively works like a mobile heavy. It doesn't deal as much damage, doesn't have as much health, but moves faster, and doesn't have damage fall-off nor inaccuracy. Excellent for wrangler sentry styles of play.

A level 3 sentry is much more powerful at damage output than a heavy because of rockets, but is significantly less mobile. Also really easy to backstab. Excellent at defensive styles of play.

But one thing I'm uncertain of: should the engineer be able to jump at levels 2 and 3 sentry? Level 1 for sure, but don't know about the other two.



Spy

Hacker (new sapper):

  • 50% decreased sapping speed.
  • Once fully sapped, building changes team, belongs to the spy that successfully sapped it, and has 50% less health.
  • Can't sap teleporters.


Because I can and I think it would be cool. (Alternatively you can have it sap the teleporter, but never destroy it. Just disable it till an engineer comes and destroys the sapper.)



The Heavy:

Sandvich (changes):

Upon throwing Sandvich on the ground, the Heavy says one of these quotes at random.

  • You! Eat Sandvich now!
  • Sandvich for you!
  • Sandvich very delicious, you enjoy.
  • Dropping Sandvich!


The biggest reason for this is due to just how easy it is for a player to completely miss a heavy throwing a sandvich at them when they are on fire or bleeding or being shot at. At many times in pubs it would take a heavy 10 seconds to try and get the player's attention to get the sandvich on the ground, at which point it may already be too late. Having voiced alerts when dropping the sandvich allows for better communication and can save many many lives.



The Medic:

Quick Fix (changes):

  • 2.5% ubercharge build rate per second.
  • Having no targets during an uber slows its depletion rate by 50%.
  • Increases the speed and blast jump momentum of the patient during an uber by 15%, then mirrors it.
  • While healing (not just during an uberc), the medic and the patient are immune to movement impairing effects.
  • 150% overheal maximum.
  • -50% overheal build rate.


The biggest challenge for the quick-fix was to first identify the main reasons for its ban in 6v6 and 4v4, and then balance it to make it still useful in various other matches. The two biggest things about the quick-fix for its ban in the smaller player count competitive matches are A) the faster ubercharge and B) the faster movement speed. Removing these two positives and then compensating it by still keeping some of its identifiable traits were the goals for making this balanced.


Crusader's Crossbow (changes):

  • No ubercharge build rate.
  • Upon firing a syringe, the Crusader's Crossbow will heal all allies for 20 health within a sphere of a radius of 150 Hu around the medic.


This isn't for comp, but rather for pubs. While I don't know what will happen without the potential to build up 4%-9% ubercharge on a successful heal, I do feel that it doesn't really generate any benefit in terms of play in pubs. The healing circle is there so that medics who are attempting to heal long distance targets are not neglecting those that need healing right next to them. It also helps to mitigate the negative effects of those medics who try and heal patients with the crossbow when really, they should be using the medi-gun.


Steel Resolve (new primary):

  • Stats the same as Crusader's Crossbow.
  • No longer heals friendly players on hit, instead replenishes 1/6th of maximum ammo to friendly players, and repairs 1/6th of damage to friendly buildings.
  • Ramp-up increases ammo replenishment and building damage repairment to 1/3rd.


The biggest direction for this crossbow is that the engineer has no other class that supports him beyond the pyro's one melee weapon. While he himself is a support class to his teammates, it becomes frustrating at times when you are frequently neglected by your team because they simply can't do anything for you. The crossbow I felt is the closest thing that can assist an engineer to some degree without changing how the class functions too heavily. Further, making it slightly more useful by being able to supply ammo makes it more of a viable choice.



The Sniper:

Darwin's Danger Shield (changes):

  • No longer has bullet resistance or explosive weakness.

    This is mainly to make the shield legal in competitive highlander. It is currently banned because it protects the sniper from quick-scoping, forcing the other sniper to run it. Removing the bullet resistance means that the sniper is no longer protected by quick-scoping. The explosive weakness was also pointless as the health gain negated that weakness.

Conclusion

The goals for the pyro were to give an over-all buff while encouraging and training newer players to utilize the pyro as a support/AoE/ambush class by giving alternative primaries that have alt-fire mechanics other than airblasting. This allows newer players to practice on the pyro class and the different styles of play it leads to without being confronted with the high skill barrier that the current pyro has with airblasting to those who only know how to W+M1.

The goals for the engineer were to diversify his potential playing styles by giving him much needed alternatives for the secondary and PDA. Much of the secondaries are focused on combat engineer styles of play, whereas The Advanced Plan PDA can be used for both defensively and offensively, even without the gunslinger.

All other classes focus on things that either are missing to provide interactive benefit between players, can allow for really interesting game states, or are focusing on fixing many issues with banned weapons.

Feel free to discuss on these changes and alternatives in a polite manner. A good analysis and portrayal of information are what is necessary to get these ideas off the ground.

Thank you for your time, and have a nice day.

List of Edits: Show

VampireArmy says... #2

You are an imaginative individual. These are cool ideas.

April 11, 2016 11:04 p.m.

DrFunk27 says... #3

Couldn't find the tl;dr so I read it all. lol I'm confused what we are talking about?

April 11, 2016 11:07 p.m.

Femme_Fatale says... #4

DrFunk27, this is for Team Fortress 2.

April 12, 2016 12:55 a.m.

Goody says... #5

A lot of your ideas don't apply well to higher forms of competition in TF2, mainly UGC since Highlander is the primary gamemode where Pyro is run full time. Some of your knowledge is inaccurate - Phlog has the same flame physics as every other flamethrower, it does not have an increased flame cone. To test this out just set Tf_Debug_flamethrower 1 in an Sv_Cheats 1 server (you can do this locally), and look at how the particles move for the flamethrowers. The only thing the Pyro changes would do is make competitive Pyro even more crippled, as their primary would be weakened and the small benefits to their secondaries would not compensate. The Beacon for engie would be used in every team in 6s and highlander because of the ubercharge gains.

April 12, 2016 1:01 a.m.

Femme_Fatale says... #6

Ubercharge regen is getting removed anyways, I'm just gathering more information on the steam thread before I make edits. The beacon will also be changed to have diminishing returns for each beacon within another's vicinity.

I'll remove the Phlog volume thing. I've heard differently from other players but now I'm getting conflicted answers when I ask again.

I'm also surprised that comp. pyro players hold down the fire button for more than 3 seconds before trying to airblast or switch weapons. The +25% initial cone volume should honestly just be more of a buff to them. The afterburn debuff is also twice as fast now, though still doing the same damage.

April 12, 2016 1:33 a.m.

Goody says... #7

There's a time and place for M1, especially after degreaser base damage got buffed. The stream of flame is consistent at close range and can hit multiple targets at once. Secondaries are usually better in a 1v1 but some situations ask for continuous flame damage.

Flame particles are not cones or behave like a cone, they are large boxes (1 box for every 0.5 ammo) that travel forward and then upward at the end of their lifespan. They are affected by the Pyro's momentum at the time they are launched, sketchek made a lot of videos exploiting the physics for axtinguisher tricks. If you're falling your flames travel downward faster and upward slower, and vice versa. Also works side to side, you can flame around corners this way.

Frankly I didn't read the changes in depth but there's no way Valve would drastically change so many things about those classes at once. It's more realistic to expect gradual changes so that they can see how it affects the class as a whole.

April 12, 2016 2:53 p.m.

Femme_Fatale says... #8

I've made some edits with what you told me and what others have said.

April 12, 2016 4:46 p.m.

jandrobard says... #9

Your idea about the flare gun ("the crits stationary players" bit specifically) sounds good, your fix for the manmelter is as good as all other ones I've seen, and the phlog modification is interesting. What if the phlog got split into two weapons: an "invuln+heal" one and a "crits" one? Ethics of controlled critting aside, the original "burst damage vs consistency" relationship between the phlog and the stock worked well, and rewarded careful playing.

April 13, 2016 6:49 p.m.

Goody says... #10

So on a completely related note, this is a video of me playing Pyro in which I use M1 for extended periods of time even though I switch to the shotgun often. This is also NOT a plug for my newly released frag video. Nope.

April 14, 2016 3:34 p.m.

Femme_Fatale says... #11

I counted I think, 7 times in total in which you went beyond 3 seconds of using the flamethrower. All those times you were either A) right behind the opponent, B) spychecking, and C) already too far away for your flamethrower to be effective and you switched weapons shortly after.

April 14, 2016 4:21 p.m.

Goody says... #12

From behind it's easier to hit them with flames since I can't easily predict what their movement will be, since they're looking at something else. Also, it's often better to M1 when there's multiple opponents. Your change to the flame boxes would probably be fine tbh, but it would be another gimmicky thing about Pyro that isn't intuitive and would require more training with the class, training that doesn't really carry over to any other class. Pyro is already very messed up in general

April 14, 2016 8:51 p.m.

Femme_Fatale says... #13

I've had another idea that could work with Pyro. How about visual denial? I was thinking of him being able to throw a smoke bomb that obscures the line of sight for anyone but pyros.

There was also the suggestion of a Napalm Launcher. It'd basically launch a milk/jarate physics based projectile that when contact with a wall, floor, building or enemy, it would shatter and spew out Napalm in a small area that would stay for about 10 seconds before disappearing. Enemies coming into contact with the Napalm would take some amount of fire based damage and would become on fire.

April 15, 2016 2:45 a.m.

Goody says... #14

The fire damage for the napalm would have to be really strong for it to be worth it, or the recharge rate for the projectile would have to be pretty fast. Otherwise, something like the detonator is just always going to be better.

The smokescreen is interesting, but it would be a pretty big change to the game

April 15, 2016 12:05 p.m. Edited.

Femme_Fatale says... #15

Recharge rate wouldn't be a good idea, because otherwise you'd end up spamming a large area. Add two more pyros and you've got something that does point denial better than the demo that doesn't take skill.

The idea would be to launch the napalm in a singular choke point preventing the enemy from getting through that area for that period of time, or to defend the control point from afar.

The two ideas for it were for it to be a secondary weapon or an alt-fire to a new Flamethrower. For damage I was thinking the same as the Flamethrower does, plus afterburn. Also allowing the Pyro to walk on it unharmed.

The smokescreen effect could be secondary weapon. Perhaps an alternate detonator type weapon. It would basically have three stages. Stage 1, lasting 2 seconds, would be the smoke spreading to cover the max distance. Stage 2, lasting 4 seconds, would be the smoke just being there at max. Stage 3, lasting 3 seconds, would be the smoke dissipating. Smoke could be removed via airblast.

April 15, 2016 11:15 p.m.

Goody says... #16

So Napalm would deal 6 damage per second while you're standing on it, or it would deal the same amount of damage as being inside the stream of a flamethrower? The first would be pretty poor as choke denial, the second would be very powerful and would probably be worth running

April 16, 2016 2:58 a.m.

This discussion has been closed