Mtg: suff about family and sexuality
The Blind Eternities forum
Posted on April 14, 2015, 2 p.m. by DERPLINGSUPREME
So, I got about ankle-deep into a conversation about MTG being a family game, or not, or whatever, so I moved it.
Let me fill you in. We were talking about how people have alternate art land of almost-naked anime girls. This turned into some stuff about sexuality in MTG, so may I ask:
how do you feel about this?
How do you feel about sexuality in MTG? do you think it should be a family game? How about MTG porn? okay or not? thought, issues, questions, Ideas?
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #3
Oh, I subscribed as soon as I saw this. Entertainment is coming our way. Also linking Femme_Fatale since she seems to know a lot about this subject (I think?).
April 14, 2015 2:03 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #4
I'll get to this after class. I feel like I'll want to see what Femme_Fatale has to say here.
And I'd like to say that whoever is saying whatever about this, be sure to be respectful of others, specifically people who disagree with you.
April 14, 2015 2:07 p.m.
ZooGambler says... #5
I think that it's not that is SHOULD or SHOULDN'T, but it IS a family game and should be kept that way. I think the sexualized art on cards like Liliana of the Veil is okay because that's who she is as a character. I think that the guys over at Riot Games (The people who made League of Legends) are taking the correct approach and moving away from sexualized female characters if that's not their lore. This is also pretty objectifying of women and offensive in my eyes. Would you want to see someone with a naked man on their basics with a huge **** clearly bulging out of his underwear? No. Thank. You. Keep it PG-13. If you're into that kind of thing keep it private.
April 14, 2015 2:07 p.m.
slovakattack says... #6
There's a big difference between slapping naked anime girls on the cards/sleeves you play with at home or with friends, and bringing them to an LGS environment.
If that's your thing, then shrug, but bringing them to an LGS event is not okay.
Magic may not always be a family environment, but most LGS worth their salt are.
April 14, 2015 2:08 p.m.
Um. I personally think sexuality ect shouldnt be in Magic. Like I don't want to infringe on anyone's right but really? I don't think Magic is the right place for that.
That being said, I flipping love when people build decks around themes or references. Creativity in making your game unique is awesome. Hell, My playmat is a My little Pony mat, and I have an altered commander to look like a Changeling oc. While it's not sexual, it's about altering and personalizing your play experience.
my point is, there should be creativity and alters are cool and all, but there's a point where it distracts or is distasteful for other players.
April 14, 2015 2:09 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #8
Just going to link Derp's deck about sexual-looking MTG cards, because it seems on-topic. Here we go.
April 14, 2015 2:11 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #9
The story is based on war, and violence. To me that is an adult theme. That said kids do play, and if you want to run that kind of stuff just make sure you are in the right company. If everyone is an adult, that is fine. If someone complains about it, just switch them out for regular lands.
To me it is important that people communicate. If something offends you speak up nicely about it. If someone is offended by something you do, try to accommodate them if possible. I know personal interaction is not always the easiest for everyone, but being social is give n' take.
April 14, 2015 2:14 p.m.
Why not sexuality? You have severed heads, blood and gore. Why should titties (drawn ones, thats also covered, referring to OPs reference) uppset anyone?
Guns, gore, murder, rape, death, brutality. Most things are OK in our media, but never anything sexual, because thats... bad?
April 14, 2015 2:15 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #11
slovakattack just making sure you know, I am NOT into this.
ZooGambler I like what you're saying. I didnt mean this as in "should there be nude pictures on mtg cards?", I meant it just as a thing where people shared how they felt about this. I like it when wizards puts a sexy/hot/cute girl on mtg cards, but not BECAUSE they're sexy/hot/cute. I like it b/c it shows that MTG is still a place where some people are sexualized just b/c they ARE, not to sell more products, or make people want to join more, or anything similar to vanguard (if you dont know the tcg, look it up). as long as wizards isn't overexualizing these cards, its okay. "that is how those characters dress. just deal with it." kind of thing going on.
I forgot where I was going with this, hopefully femme or someone else has that answer while I'm/I was typing this.
April 14, 2015 2:17 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #12
FAMOUSWATERMELON oh yeah... :3
smackjack I see what you're saying, and you make a great point. I haven't a clue of a counteragrument for that. It makes sense...
April 14, 2015 2:19 p.m.
smackjack You make a very good point and I think this is one of those thinks that ends up being about how much sexuality families should be exposed to.
It's based a lot in morals.
April 14, 2015 2:24 p.m.
ZooGambler says... #14
Sexuality is generally a one way street. Do you see sexualized male characters? Generally not. You see strong male characters that are winning war through strength, cunning, sacrifice, generally noble causes. Whereas females can do the same along with seduction, seduction always seems to find its way into anything without context. In a family friendly environment, kids will see these pictures and say wow, boobies. But what else? Wow. Boobies. What else does this girl have that you're interested in? What traits does she portray? Large busty boobies. Which isn't okay.
April 14, 2015 2:25 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #15
I have a counter to you smackjack I just need to wait like 15 more minutes to be able to type it all out.
April 14, 2015 2:25 p.m.
For the record, I'm also excited for Femme_Fatale's answer. She tends to be level-headed and knows her shit. It will be a learning experience for me, I'm sure.
April 14, 2015 2:28 p.m.
smackjack There really isn't a good answer besides hypocrisy. We don't want kids seeing sex for fear that they'll try to do it in real life, but we assume they'll know enough not to bring a butcher knife to school because they saw it on TV.
Its all societal views really. We happen to live in a society where sex, nudity and body image are something to be ashamed of and this is emphasized in adverts, movies, books, and even by parents and schools. We live in a place where anyone can complain about anything based on their personal moral objections and succeed in censoring it.
As for the altered cards in question, I personally don't like them, because I'm kinda skeeved out by the idea of playing against someone who basically takes their favorite porn and shows it off to everyone at the table.
April 14, 2015 2:35 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #18
ChiefBell and i have had this argument before. I've argued enough this week so i really have nothing to say here (mostly since my buddy slovs nailed it) so I'll leave it to him and femme
April 14, 2015 2:35 p.m.
FinchFalcon says... #19
smackjack, the problem I have is not the sexuality itself- it's the way that sexuality is portrayed. More often than not, it's objectifying and degrading to women. When talking about sexuality, it's easy to assume that sex=good, and sexual freedom=good, and sexual expression=good, therefore portrayals of these things are good. While that's all fine, the problem is that when we're talking about drawn art work on pieces of cardboard, most of that sexualizatuon is not healthy pro-positive sex, it's "Hey look at this mostly naked woman" sex. Honestly, I don't see a way in which magic cards could be altered to produce healthy sexualization.
April 14, 2015 2:37 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #20
I think its not a question of "why not boobs?" Bring 'em on. It's "why so many boobs?" Liliana is the poster child for this, but everyone ignores Elspeth's modesty. Magic can be modest just as much as it can be sexual, and as has already been said, chooses to do so flavorfully. I think many artists push the amount of skin shown on their subjects (Rakish Heir) but our culture has already normalized that. In the end, the boosters say 13+. If you choose to let your 9 year old watch Total Recall, that's your decision. I won't censor myself. (That being said I find naked anime lands, sleeves and playmats unnecessary.)
April 14, 2015 2:43 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #21
There's a lot of bashing of male sexuality I've noticed in these posts. I'm not even sure if it's intentionally done or not. Like i don't even really want to argue it but what exactly is wrong with being attracted to the female form? If it's such a detrimental thing to females everywhere, why do so many of them choose to make a hobby/career of modeling these characters, especially the overly sexualized ones, in cosplay?
Maybe instead of placing restrictions on what males find attractive and publicly shaming dudes who like these things, we should be focusing on what sort of sexualized guys women would like to see.
April 14, 2015 2:47 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #22
I think I might know why sexuality is usualy put all over women and not men.
Normally, it is percieved that men think of sex more than women (and I say percieved b/c I dont know if this is true or not. I'm pretty sure it is, but not sure). b/c it is percieved this way, men tend to get more of wnat they "want" (huge tits, revealing clothing, a big ass, ect), while women, who are percieved to not think about it as much and are usually not catered to as much as men are these days in terms of games, are not given this. It really just comes down to the fact that sise the begining of time, men were thought of as stroinger, smarter, braver, ect, but now that this is changing, things like this are becoming more of an issue.
honestly, If I were a man, I'd think of this all the same way (I think).
If I were a woman, I would still think of this all as normal. women are sexualized, so what? thats just how things are.
And its really up to you guys to decide what gender I am. I'm not giving it away, or at least, I'll try not to.
April 14, 2015 2:52 p.m.
hammerhead300 says... #23
I don't think anybody is bashing male sexuality, so much as just questioning how much of it is okay to expose to the general public, as opposed to keeping it private. I'll be honest, there's a lot of artwork I enjoy that is decidedly "NSFW", but I keep that stuff out of the public eye.
April 14, 2015 2:56 p.m.
FinchFalcon says... #24
VampireArmy, I'm not sure I see your point. Where is male sexuality beind bashed? Thus far, from what I see, the conversation hasn't mentioned male sexuality as a bad thing, nor has anyone suggested restricting it or shaming men for liking women. I'd appreciate the enlightenment. :)
April 14, 2015 3:01 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #25
Yeah i see that that points a good one though honestly kids nowadays are exposed to much worse than nude artwork in this day and age everywhere else anyways. I'm just seeing a lot of arguments based on how it makes female players feel. Just wondering if my counter example is holding water here. Like I've known far too many girls who enjoy this sort of stuff just as much as if not more than the guys.
April 14, 2015 3:02 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #26
FinchFalcon this whole discussion (once you get to the root of it) is about negative male sexuality. The over sexulization of women yes?
April 14, 2015 3:05 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #27
well, this has been a DAMN good conversation. I'll be leaving soon, but I'm sure there'll be more when I'm back. also, be sure to check out the deck that watermelon mentioned. MTG controvercy plz look at it, it must be spread.
anyway, as I may or may not have implied, do..... nevermind, I really shouldnt say this. Its... very odd.
April 14, 2015 3:05 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #28
VampireArmy there is no problem with being attracted to the female form. The problem is when the imagery is so pervasive and purporting an increasingly fantastical and impossible ideal. The sociological implication becomes is that if you're a woman, how close you come to this ideal perpetuated by a male fantasy is how society values you. If you don't meet that ideal, then you are not valued.
April 14, 2015 3:06 p.m.
On the issue of your own sleeves etc slovakattack nailed it.
On the issue of sexual art in general: it's not ok because this, this, this.
Essentially drawings take away agency, and promote objectification, Objectification leads to low self esteem and body pressures. This leads to eating disorders and depression. There are different pressures on men and women (read Moradi and Hunag, 2008). Essentially the problem comes when we encourage men to be attracted to boobs as objects instead of boobs as things attached to a living breathing person that you know, has a life. This is why there's a difference between an adult performer that chooses a career and a piece of cardboard that doesn't go beyond a drawing.
I'm not really going to bother arguing or responding to this in any more depth. I don't care about your opinion because it's just that - an opinion. I've presented measurable outcomes that go further than saying 'I think' or 'I believe'. This is testable and predictable, measured science. If you want to argue with that then go ahead, but I won't waste my time on you.
April 14, 2015 3:06 p.m.
I don't believe MtG as it exists today should include overtly sexual references or images. It's audience ranges too young for such a practice to be acceptable. However, if Wizards creates a 'spin-off' card game, much like Kaijudo, they could get away with designing and marketing it from the ground up to be targeted at a more mature demographic. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean it should feature graphic sexual content, but it could be more 'realistic' in a sense to include sexual elements.
April 14, 2015 3:07 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #31
smackjack this is a game about conflict, as such wars and battles are justifiable and normal parts of the story. magic is a game designed to portray conflict, and it does so in a way that avoids excessively showing brutality unless it is acknowledged that it is portraying something specifically brutal, like many black cards.
sexual images, however, are not an expected or necessary part of a game dedicated to conflict that tries to cater itself to a family environment. Basically, it's different than violence because magic is dedicated to conflict and violence, and media dedicated to sexual imagery should be seperate from that. I'm not talking about liliana cards where she's a character who in the story users her sexuality, I'm talking about adding barely clothed imagery of females (or males) to entirely non sexual things.
I have to urge a question of why people are trying to put sexual imagery into their games of magic. What are you trying to express by doing this and why do you want to show it to other people?
April 14, 2015 3:08 p.m.
For clarity - nothing wrong with men's sexuality towards WOMEN. Very wrong with men's sexuality towards PARTS of women.
April 14, 2015 3:08 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #33
I just don't get people and evidently either does the people I've known all my life.
Like who looks like jace, garruk, ajani, sorin? Ideal forms are....ideal? No one I've ever met ever has derived their value based on a fictional character. Not the females or males
April 14, 2015 3:10 p.m.
FinchFalcon says... #34
VampireArmy, Sure but is that the same thing as bashing male sexuality? I mean, you phrase it as "negative" male sexuality, which seems to suggest you think there's an issue to be had. I don't think anyone is suggesting that men not be free to like women. I think the problem is, when women are portrayed as static images of sexiness, it becomes easy to forget that real women have personalities behind them.
April 14, 2015 3:11 p.m.
I don't understand people, who says that there is too much "sexual stuff" in MTG. It's is only very few card pieces, which is portrayed with some "sexual stuff". And on those pieces, it is only a small amount of "sexual stuff".
And, what is the problem with it? People wanting the ideal impossible body? We live in the 21'st century. I really hope, that people don't think, that real life is like some fantasy art.
Oh, and yea, of course there is a lot more pictures of women than men. How many men plays MTG compared to women? A lot.
April 14, 2015 3:13 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #36
I've dabbled into MtG with my 7yo daughter. When she sees a picture of Liliana she thinks it's pretty. When she sees a picture of Elspeth she thinks it's pretty. One of her favorite cards is Traveling Philosopher because she thinks the dress is pretty for god's sake. If you think putting visually aesthetic females in the card art hurts the game you couldn't be more wrong. Cards that could be considered crossing the line are few and far between, typically are from older sets, and aren't worth getting your panties in a bunch over. You're much more likely to find a bare chested man with a six pack and chiseled arms when browsing cards. Why does WotC depict men this way? Well because it's cooler and more fun to imagine things that way, ditto for females as well.
Also WotC is pretty clear MtG is intended for ages 13+.
April 14, 2015 3:16 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #37
Suggesting that males keep their preferences away from public interactions with people is not saying they need to stop being sexual. Criticizing how and where sexual interests are shown is not conflict someone's ability to babe sexual interests.
I feel like at all of this I have to ask why. Why portray something one looks at for sexual enjoyment in public? you're not drawing your favorite sexual art then taking a break to go get offin the bathroom. No one else is going to see your card and want to do that. People who enjoy that type of sexual imagery can look it up at their own convenience in private. Why are you bringing it into public where people won't be able to avoid the specific imagery they may find offensive or at least displeasing to see.
April 14, 2015 3:17 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #38
Also is like to specify I'm talking about adding alters of images that are implying or directly something sexual, not the arts wizards puts on their cards.
April 14, 2015 3:19 p.m.
Think naked/ or almost naked ladies are in bad taste...
Yeh aint takin my Voice of Resurgence tokens from meh though!!!
April 14, 2015 3:19 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #40
Ryotenchi why is that the type of art you feel like showing off I'm public? I'm legitimately curious as to why people use sexual artin a public (family) setting?
April 14, 2015 3:24 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #41
While it may be very showly, It isnt extremely sexualized unlike the lands we were talking about.
Personally though, I think it'd be better if it were a normal looking elemental but in a sexy pose with a bikini, now THAT would be awesome, and quite hilarious!
WHO AGREES?
April 14, 2015 3:25 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #42
VampireArmy I think you would be surprised. Look at how many young male teenagers these days are suddenly taking steroids and getting into working out because of how media has pushed out sexualized young males over the past few years. Its not about fictional characters persay, but about media and imagery influence our ideals as a whole.
Why to we as a society value things like six pack abs? Because imagery in media tells us we should, because they are desirable...that becomes the ideal. Now do individuals make less shallow decisions and well informed decisions? Sure. That doesn't change the fact that the pervasiveness of this imagery has made something valuable in society, and in so doing made that which is not...LESS desirable.
April 14, 2015 3:25 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #43
If it were being done to be funny normal elemental in a Bikini sounds hilarious.
Also I'm with derpling that that isn't particularly sexual, just showee. I would still encourage you to use something else of someone said it have them uncomfortable though.
13+is the age, it's illegal for 13 year olds to be looking up some of the things I've seen on playmats. Literally Against the law and sexual harassment against a minor. So. Maybe if it was 18+ you could make that argument.
April 14, 2015 3:29 p.m.
Sunspear Shikari Wild Nacatl Skyhunter Cub Auriok Champion Arm with AEther Viridian Betrayers
Not all that differentely dressed... Just cause their cats.. or champion running around in her panties/bathing suit which always made me feel awkward when I was a kid..
April 14, 2015 3:30 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #45
Wizards having done it in the past doesn't make it okay. Giving cat's boobs is weird.
If you're saying it used to make you feel awkward to see similar things why are you Putting others through that?
April 14, 2015 3:35 p.m.
K... If I cant play with adults at my lgs cause you say so.. Maybe I should just quit then.
April 14, 2015 3:37 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #47
I didn't say you can't play with adults or that you should Quit? I asked you why you use the art you use, and you got immediately defensive by saying similar arts used to make you uncomfortable so it's fine. You still haven't explained why you choose the art you've chosen
April 14, 2015 3:40 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #48
I did initially say I'm not here to argue it. Im out numbered anyways since the people that do agree with me don't use this site so 1 v 100 doesn't really sound appealing.
Just wanted to highlight stuff as talking points
Have a good one
April 14, 2015 3:42 p.m.
Explaining why I use art, is getting defense.. Getting angry is what I do when someone uses a bs reason to censer me. If kids exist therefore no tokens for me.. If not tokens.. why bother.. endless chain.
Im done here.
April 14, 2015 3:43 p.m.
Excuse me while I type a completely off topic comment here so that I may be able to watch this conversation as it continues.
grabs the popcorn
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #2
asasinater13 here ya go. why don't you start us off? if not, lets just wait for someone else. any how, FAMOUSWATERMELON, 6tennis, Didgeridooda, Ryotenchi, and Infer1or, cmere.
Infer1or, I linked you in b/c whenever I meet someone new I like, I talk with them for a while, casually, and see if they stick around.
April 14, 2015 2:02 p.m.