Not Magic Retlated
The Blind Eternities forum
Posted on Sept. 4, 2014, 11:39 a.m. by VampireArmy
So yesterday during our Women of MTG thread, I admitted I was against Feminism and it seemed to have a level of backlash. That's expected but they type of backlash I got was rather confusing. I understand it to a degree I guess.
The idea tends to be "If you're against Feminism, you're against women's equality and women's rights" and this is not true. I'm not a Men's rights activist either by the way. I follow an ideology of Egalitarianism which by definition means :
1: a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic affairs2: a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people
I really don't have the patience at this moment (lack of focus can be a bitch sometimes) but I wanted to highlight that the reason I'm against Feminism is it seeks to higher women no matter what. This is a vast, vast world and there are places (many places) where women are ahead in privilege and safety of rights but feminism will not address those things. I have here the most well known and probably the best equipped anti-feminist karen straughan It was a mix of her videos and debates coupled with Jessica's page that opened my eyes to the world and showed me a new way of seeing things.
Additionally This Facebook is a waypoint from Tumblr where women all over the world including third world countries (yes they have technology in some places there) are standing against feminism because of it's lack of equality in it's politics.
*Disclaimer about Women Against Fem. : Some of the people there have very illegitimate reasons to stand against feminism but the page is all inclusive and chooses to support all reasons to be against Feminism.
*Other disclaimer : I have yet to meet one feminist who has shown me one piece of proof that Feminism will balance it out where men are disenfranchised. Instead we see that they choose to simply ignore where men are held lesser than women.
Very honestly, I wish the whole world would accept a few truths.
Humans sexualize each other : It's how we exist as a species.
Men and Women are built differently : It's how we've existed as a society.
There are ALWAYS exceptions to those 2 rules : It's how we've evolved as a people
You, sir, are a wise nerd. I pretty much feel the same, I've just never done any thorough research into the topic.
September 4, 2014 11:45 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #4
I'm not pro or anti woman....i'm simply Pro human race....
September 4, 2014 11:47 a.m.
Nononononono. You're missing what feminism is about. Fair enough, you're taking what modern society has seen of feminism and taking it as it is, which is wrong, but not so bad. Feminism is, at it's core, about equality in an in-equal world. It's trying to get women up to the same level as men, at as basic a level as thought. Instead of seeing a woman, just seeing a person. Personally I reckon it's hopeless, human beings aren't built that way and plus, humans are dicks. But it's a noble goal none the less. I don't know how much of an inequality there currently is, but the goal is to stamp out that inequality where it still does exist. And there is somewhere it exists, just like there's still racism and homophobia.
And just before someone get's on my back, I'm a 17 year old guy. I've seen enough people commenting on social issues getting told "You're just saying that because you're a __". No favourtism either way, just want to make sure people know what it is.
September 4, 2014 11:53 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #6
awphutt : I'm only 20. Age doesn't have much to do with what you know in this subject. Anyone with an internet connection can have access to enough information to debate. I'm not going to insult your intelligence as this is a respectful forum. Now i will say that I understand what people think feminism started as, Read This
September 4, 2014 11:57 a.m.
Firstly, thanks for the open mindedness.
But I'm a little confused as to what that was.... There was no mention of feminism, or of anything really. It was a passage from a novel, which someone posted on facebook. I'm unsure as to what you're taking from this that I'm missing.
September 4, 2014 12:02 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #8
Ah yes forgot to mention. The book is "The Pankhursts: The History of One Radical Family" additionally These show a bit more of the history of feminism not commonly told in schools
September 4, 2014 12:06 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #9
The way I see it, Feminism is a lot like being Muslim in today's society. Most of them are totally cool, doing their thing without bothering anyone about it and doing things the "right" way, and then there's extremists that push their beliefs so far down your throat that you're shitting them out before you can even taste it. These are the ones that are doing it wrong, however, these are also the ones that are getting the most attention.
If you look into the Feminism videos on YouTube, there's a couple of rare cases of the first type of feminist that are just looking to promote a general awareness of their cause, and accepting differing viewpoints when they are offered. However, most of the time you're going to see those extremists that like to do one of a few things. They can be seen picking apart society in attempt to showcase all of the ways that Women are "degraded" in society (a common example is female armor in video games), then throw around the words "Misogynistic" and "Tropes" Because keywords influence thought patterns. They can also be seen actively protesting (like, Westboro Baptist Church style protest) movies, games, and any other type of media that they consider to be offensive, which is pretty much 100% of things today. There's any number of different styles of Feminist Extremist, and they're all pretty terrible in my opinion.
From what i've seen (havent seen the original thread, basically), OP here is only really hating on the second type of Feminist, which is totally fine, because this second type is typically made up of 100% asshole. Here's a prime example of this second type of Feminist Extremist, who basically just uses enhanced vocabulary to make it seem like she knows what she's talking about, but takes everything out of context and morphs what she's presenting to fit her case.
September 4, 2014 12:09 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #10
I don't hate on any individual Fem inst ThatBlueMage I disagree with the Ideology of Feminism in it's whole and prefer to advocate for Egalitarianism
September 4, 2014 12:11 p.m.
What you're showing me is extremists, the very same as if you were showing me pictures of suicide bombings in a conversation about Muslims. There are always people who are there to cause trouble, not help the cause. Or people who are misguided and think that's what needs to be done. You can't pick those people as examples of modern day feminism, especially considering that all of that is from the early 1900's...
September 4, 2014 12:11 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #12
From Wiki :Emmeline Pankhurst (born Goulden; 15 July 1858 14 June 1928) was a British political activist and leader of the British suffragette movement who helped women win the right to vote. In 1999 Time named Pankhurst as one of the 100 Most Important People of the 20th Century, stating: "she shaped an idea of women for our time; she shook society into a new pattern from which there could be no going back."[1] She was widely criticised for her militant tactics, and historians disagree about their effectiveness, but her work is recognised as a crucial element in achieving women's suffrage in Britain.[2][3]
She was a terrorist and people celebrate her...She was not a random one either. She was a leader
September 4, 2014 12:13 p.m.
So was Micheal Collins in Ireland, and he was twice as bad as she was. History is written by the victor, you can't proclaim that you're against the ideology because of the extremists, it's just wrong.
September 4, 2014 12:20 p.m.
I'm also of the mind that you're missing the point of feminism. Yes, it's goal is almost always to higher women, but I'm pretty sure that's because women are, at this point and for a very long time, have been at a much lower level in many regards than men have.
Like, bad metaphor inbound that doesn't encapsulate every nuance, but if you're in charge of giving two young kids cake, and they get half a cake each, but one kid's eaten 5 slices and one kid's had one slice, you probably should give the one-slice kid more cake before the five-slice kid.
There's also something here that irks me, and I don't want to get into a big argument about it, but the whole "men are behind women in certain areas, you should care about that as well" thing just kinda... falls flat with me. Like, yes, it's true, and people who care about equal rights for all should care about the intersection of these areas and how feminism can help, but any given person simply cannot care about every terrible thing in the world with equal passion and focus, and building off of that, feminists are focusing and being passionate about areas where women are behind men and ways to raise up women in those areas. While one should not be cold and compassion-less toward other areas, there are other groups full of passion for these issues that are actively working toward true equality without tearing down certain groups.
September 4, 2014 12:23 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #15
I'm not for his cause either. Look at this way. Do we praise Malcolm X or do we praise Martin Luther King Jr. Think to yourself. Why do we praise MLK with a holiday and not Malcolm X. I'ts because MLK advocated for peace and did everything in his power to get his rights peacefully. I relate the women's suffrage movement in kind with Malcolm X. They both wanted something but wanted it violently. I didn't show an extremist, she was a Feminist leader. One of the most well renowned at that. Women's sufferage is tricky though. Different countries have different histories on it. I know for a solid face and this chart agrees women of higher class could indeed vote before the 19th amendment.
September 4, 2014 12:25 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #16
The problem is that the extremists are the ones leading the movement on a large scale. Day to day most people who associate with feminism aren't radical in ideology or method of spreading it, but they follow those who are.
September 4, 2014 12:26 p.m.
slovakattack says... #17
ThatBlueMage: Oh man, Anita Sarkisian. Not touching that one with a ten-foot pole :P
September 4, 2014 12:29 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #18
The problem with what you're saying erabel is that day to day, on this page i link over and over, we have proven the women and men never suffered worse than the other, just in different ways. NO i am not saying seism does not exist, i am not saying some women did not have it worse than some men. I'm saying that this wasn't the result of a patriarchy but instead an abuse of power held by the elite which in some cases WERE WOMEN as well.
September 4, 2014 12:30 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #19
The problem is that some people use "feminism" to mean the original "womens' rights activism" with egalitarian roots and others use it to mean "misandry". If the two people on either side of a conversation about "feminism" aren't talking about the same thing then the discussion is completely meaningless.
September 4, 2014 12:31 p.m.
One more thing: Equal rights for everyone in every aspect is a group effort. Being for equality for every group is a noble goal, but being against feminists because they focus on bringing up women seems unfair. Not in the whole "you should respect all ideas equally" sense. I mean like, In a group project for school, if someone steps up and says "hey, I'm good at and care about art, and there's a significant art portion of this project that needs to be done, let me focus on that and y'all split up the rest", you shouldn't get mad at them for not also helping with every other aspect, or worse, actively be hateful toward the art they create needlessly. They took their skills and their passion and furthered the project, which was the point.
September 4, 2014 12:31 p.m.
You're very much talking about the past here, you're talking about what happened. What happened doesn't matter, the only things an idea like Feminism cares about is the present and the future.
September 4, 2014 12:32 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #22
awphutt the phrase "check your privilege" is based around acknowledging that because of your past you have a better chance in the present. Unless that wasn't sprung out of the new wave of feminism I feel that's just not true.
September 4, 2014 12:35 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #23
awphutt So if al queda decided to be pro freedom, i should forget the things they did? Oh if you want to talk present, the entire feminism structure has literally been infested with extremists. They FAR outweigh the non extremists at this point
September 4, 2014 12:36 p.m.
A Spanish philosopher no one's ever heard of said "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." You've probably heard his famous quote though.
September 4, 2014 12:38 p.m.
You're comparing events that happened a little over a decade ago, and are still happening, that were perpetrated by an organisation, to an idea that you're judging on things that happened almost a century ago.
Feminist structure? What on earth are you talking about? Feminism doesn't have a structure, feminism isn't an organisation. Feminism is an idea about equality. And you're making this wild statement (that doesn't make sense), where's your proof? What proof do you have that:
(a) Feminism is an organisation with structure, that to call yourself a feminist you must be part of this organisation, and
(b) That this organisation is about 60-70%+ extremists.
September 4, 2014 12:41 p.m.
And for those who are talking about the past, re-read what I said. I never said Feminism is ignoring history. I said that it doesn't care what happened, the only thing a Feminist should want, by someone who is going by what feminism actually is, is equality, as soon as it can be achieved.
September 4, 2014 12:43 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #27
A) Feminism is a movement. Movements have structure...if they don't then they have failed miserably.
B) Google "Feminist" . Compare how many extremists you find opposed to non
September 4, 2014 12:44 p.m.
(A) Feminism is an idea. What people do with that idea doesn't reflect the idea.
(B) That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. As if a google search can comprehensively prove anything other than what get's the most attention.
September 4, 2014 12:46 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #30
Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
My google search agrees with VampireArmy.
September 4, 2014 12:48 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #31
awphutt See now you've become just become plain insulting. Have a good day
September 4, 2014 12:48 p.m.
slovakattack says... #32
I remember when Magic was about having fun. Aaaah, those were the days....
September 4, 2014 12:49 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #33
Telling someone to "Google X" to settle anything more complicated than a yes/no question is insulting.
September 4, 2014 12:51 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #34
slovakattack trust me, this will be the only thread i do on the subject. I have no desire to open it up further. I come here to play mtg and talk to you guys about magic foremost. This subject has just come up too many times for my comfort so i felt i should defend the other side of the spectrum.
September 4, 2014 12:51 p.m.
You're very much misinterpreting the point of 3rd/4th wave feminism.
Even if there are exceptions to the rule, the exceptions are more shocking because they're generally rarer. Misogyny is far more common than misandrism, basically.
There probably are 'bad' feminists but to get annoyed about a whole political movement because some people are bad isn't very wise really.
September 4, 2014 12:52 p.m.
I've become insulting because you've decided to ignore my statement and decide that you know better than I do because you think you do.
Feminism is the idea that women are not equal, and they should be. That quote you gave is very nice, but utterly ridiculous when you realise that it talks about defending and establishing things. It's ridiculous because feminism isn't about actions, no idea is. It's about equality, because ideas don't demand action like you're claiming they do.
And like I said, google searches prove nothing but what is/was most in the public eye. Google does not represent what feminism is.
September 4, 2014 12:53 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #37
Rhadamanthus So be it then. Though I never directly insulted anyone with name calling and what not. It's a simple thing though. Search engines are the only true way you're going to get information. I've posted several links at this point to legitimate sources and i'm not sure people are even reading them or just skimming. I'm nit here to change anyone's mind. I'm here to defend my own beliefs.
September 4, 2014 12:54 p.m.
You should always assume that the majority of people are moderate and the minority are the vocal oppressors (in either direction). That's generally how life works. You can't assume that an entire belief structure IS preaching radical ideologies of any sense. That doesn't really make rational sense.
September 4, 2014 12:55 p.m.
VampireArmy - scientific journals are the only way to get information. Never rely on google or facebook or anything else. Ever. Ever.
September 4, 2014 12:56 p.m.
Search engines are in no way the only true way to get information.
September 4, 2014 12:56 p.m.
Nigeltastic says... #41
I just am not sure I even understand this argument at all... VampireArmy you are making an argumentative equivalent to this: "I want to give the creature 'society' +1/+1. Because of this, effects that give +1/+0 are unacceptable."
September 4, 2014 12:57 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #42
ChiefBell ah i'd wondered when you would show up. I do have a very good understanding of what Feminism is. I actually AGREE with definition of feminism. Women who need help should get it. I just also divide my focus to men to. Equality cannot be achieved by only focusing on one gender. There are a great deal of fuck-ups in the world today but throughout history i have found the feminist leaders in large (acknowledging that there a quite a few okay ones as well) have been severely anti-male and have attempted to sweep the issues of men under the rug to better focus on those of women
September 4, 2014 12:59 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #43
ChiefBell can I have a link to someone who is moderate and pushing for equality in 3rd/4th wave feminism? Be it Article or what have you?
September 4, 2014 1 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #44
Nigeltastic except that the effect of "+1/+0" calls itself equality where clearly that is not.
September 4, 2014 1:01 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #46
Search engines are the only true way you're going to get information.
Seriously? That's truly the dumbest thing I've heard all day, and this response is a factual statement, not a personal insult directed at you.
The internet is all well and good for information, socialization, the modern age, and all that stuff, but it's also the most miserable swamp full of idiots, malcontents, and barnyard animals you'll ever have the misfortune to visit. Anyone can put anything on the internet. Don't trust it.
September 4, 2014 1:05 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #47
Nigeltastic Then you believe that men are above women? That in itself is an example Misogyny
September 4, 2014 1:06 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #48
Rhadamanthus Implying that medical journals, Census, and a plethora of information does not also exist on the web.... seriously.
September 4, 2014 1:08 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #49
unlesss you have all of those handy in your home currently? no? okay...see now i'm annoyed
September 4, 2014 1:08 p.m.
Nigeltastic says... #50
What... So by suggesting that there currently exists an imbalance in equality, I have become a misogynist? Man I didn't even know I hated women until now, this changes everything...
slovakattack says... #2
My main issue with feminism (mainstream feminism, at least) is that instead of embracing the differences between the genders and celebrating the unique quirks of both male and female carbon-based life forms, they instead seek to create equality by making women more like men and creating a cessation of gender. This is where a lot of conflict happens, in my opinion, as women will never be like men, just like men will never equate to women in the way that feminists want it to.
Just my opinion.
September 4, 2014 11:45 a.m.