The rulings challenge
Challenges and Articles forum
Posted on April 28, 2015, 7:38 p.m. by Bijan_Guildmage
This challenge is quite simple: Create the situation where you think the exact rulings would be the hardest to figure out (or at least get the closest to it). My personal submition is: You play mindslaver on your opponent. You go around the table, sit down and see that they have a gitaxian probe. You cast it and target yourself (your actual self not the one you're controlling). Would they get to see your hand?
That's not even really a complicated situation. Yes, they would see your hand, as they are the ones actually casting Gitaxian Probe. You aren't playing the turn for them, you are just controlling them.
April 28, 2015 7:52 p.m.
Um,, pretty much any EDH game ever.
Let's see, as far as rulings are concerned, I always get confused with control-changing effects, whether it be Mind Control vs. Mind Control, or Mind Control vs. Act of Treason.
Anything with layers also leaves me at a loss for words.
April 28, 2015 7:59 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #7
So, I cast a Magus of the Moon with Humility in play. What happens?
I actually know how this works due to a Legacy ruling while I was playing Miracles.
April 28, 2015 8:17 p.m.
During RTR Standard when I was playing my Izzet deck, I had to have a judge come over multiple times each FNM. Due to layering, Mizzium Skin makes Fluxcharger a 6/1 instead of a 5/2, even though his ability usually resolves first. That's because P/T switches always happen last, regardless of timestamp.
Then there was Nivmagus Elemental with doublestrike with Hidden Strings cyphered on...
April 28, 2015 8:21 p.m.
@fluffybunnypants: What happens is that you just paid 2R for a 1/1 dude.
April 28, 2015 8:26 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #10
@ Yananas
That's half of it. Due to layers, all lands are still Mountains despite Magus being a 1/1 now.
April 28, 2015 8:28 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #12
fluffybunnypants pretty simple, your magus becomes a 1/1 with no abilities, lands stay as they naturally are.
April 28, 2015 8:31 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #15
When you break Magic down far enough you get to layers. I've had judge friends explain it to me multiple times, I'll attempt to explain it the best I can in terms of how it applies.
Here's Magic rule/errata/whatever 418.5a which is a subset of Continuous Effects rulings.
She's a beauty.
"The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, "Copying Objects"); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-changing effects (which includes effects that change an object's card type, subtype, and/or supertype); (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first, then all other effects in timestamp order. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (6a) effects from characteristic-defining abilities; (6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e; (6c) changes from counters; (6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and (6e) effects that switch a creature's power and toughness. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer or sublayer. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b-418.5g)."
This means that Magus of the Moon's effect, occurs in Layer 4, changing all non-basic lands to Mountains, then Humility takes over in layers 5 and 6. Thus, you have a bunch of Mountains and a 1/1.
April 28, 2015 9:11 p.m.
HolyFalcon says... #16
fluffybunnypants: WOAH. This is why we have judges. Seems quite simple once you think about it, but if my opponent played that, I wouldn't think that Magus of the Moon with Humility on field works, but...
April 28, 2015 9:15 p.m.
PostalService says... #17
Say I control Decree of Silence, and my opponent casts Obliterate. What do you think happens :)
April 28, 2015 9:17 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #18
So you control 2 Furnace of Rath, 2 Repercussion, 1 Grollub, and 1 Pariah enchanting your opponent's Grollub. Your opponent controls 2 Benevolent Unicorn, 1 Grollub, and 1 Pariah enchanting your Grollub. So it's your turn and you cast Lightning Bolt on one of your opponent's Benevolent Unicorns.
Also another good one. I have out two Opalescence and a Humility, timestamped in that order. I then play Heartless Summoning. What happens?
April 28, 2015 9:48 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #19
That gives me a headache just to think about...
April 28, 2015 9:54 p.m.
PostalService says... #20
lemmingllama To your second question, because math is hard. Wouldnt Heartless summoning come into play as a 2/2, it would resolve, then Humility would trigger along with the heartless summoning effect destroying everything? Im only just becoming a rules adviser so this stuff is fun :)
April 28, 2015 10:03 p.m.
I think in the Grollub case there is infinite like gain by both players and a draw because of an unbreakable loop?
April 28, 2015 10:51 p.m.
fluffybunnypants a friend of mine has been working on being a judge and he was telling me how Humility interactions are used a lot in the testing because it's so complicated. I wanna say the example he used involved it and Mishra's Factory
April 28, 2015 11:13 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #23
@PostalService Actually no. Humility is applied in layer 6, and Heartless Summoning isn't applied until layer 7c. As such, it wouldn't kill anything due to the fact that it's abilities would already be removed.
@Gale7 It isn't infinite because the Grollubs would die from the damage. They would be removed as a state based action and so it wouldn't be infinite. Basically you would take no damage and your opponent would take lots of damage, depending on how each person layered Furnace of Rath, Repercussion, and Benevolent Unicorn. Basically your opponent takes between 256 and 640 damage in the end, and should die because those numbers are higher than the typical amount of life.
April 29, 2015 7:07 a.m.
@lemmingllama right, I may have missread Pariahs wording XD
April 29, 2015 8:30 a.m.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but does lemming's situation not go as follows?
Lightning Bolt to Benevolent Unicorn
First Furnace of Rath doubles the damage
Second Furnace of Rath doubles the doubled damage
Lightning Bolt now should be set to deal 12 damage toBenevolent Unicorn
First Benevolent Unicorn Reduces the damage by 1
Second Benevolent Unicorn Reduces the damage by 1
Lightning Bolt should be set to deal 10 damage to Benevolent Unicorn
Benevolent Unicorn takes 10 damage, killing it.
Both Repercussions see the damage dealt to Benevolent Unicorn
First Repercussion sets to deal 10 damage to your opponent
First Furnace of Rath doubles the damage
Second Furnace of Rath doubles the doubled damage
First Repercussion set to deal 40 damage to your opponent
Second Repercussion sets to deal 10 damage to your opponent
First Furnace of Rath doubles the damage
Second Furnace of Rath doubles the doubled damage
SecondRepercussion set to deal 40 damage to your opponent
Both the trigger from First and Second Repercussion are on the stack
One of the Repercussions resolves (We'll assume the Second, if the First Repercussion went on the stack first)
Your Grollub takes 40 damage due to opponent's Pariah, causing your opponent to gain 40 health.
Your Grollub dies.
The next Repercussion resolves (First Repercussion)
Your opponent takes 40 damage (no more Pariah'd creatures for him)
End Result: 1 dead opponent's Benevolent Unicorn, 1 dead your Grollub, no net life gain or loss.
This is all assuming I have not misread any of the scenarios. The wording on Benevolent Unicorn appears to be a triggered event that should only happen for Lightning Bolt, since Repercussion is a permanent and not a spell. Furnace of Rath appears to be a replacement effect, and the rulings from Gatherer state "If you have two of these on the battlefield, the damage is multiplied by 4."
May 2, 2015 11:11 p.m.
Forgive me, I missed the additional bit of repercussion dealing damage to you, and thus to an opponent's creature, and thus to the opponent. I understand now where your math is coming from.
40 damage to your Grollub
160 damage to you from each Repercussion
160 damage to opponent's Grollub
No net life loss or gain for you (160 to opponent's grollub, 160 to you, 160 life gain and 160 life loss = 0 net life gain)
Both Repercussions see damage to opponent's Grollub
640 damage to your opponent from each Repercussion (due to quadrupling from Furnace of Raths)
Your opponent takes 1280 damage (If I have done math correctly this time).
May 2, 2015 11:16 p.m.
Bijan_Guildmage says... #27
Pariah on my opponent's Stuffy Doll, where does it go? They aren't both continuous effects like flying. One of them gets triggered the other is continuous.
May 3, 2015 8:44 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #28
The damage goes to Stuffy Doll. Then it triggers and deals damage to itself. Then it triggers and deals damage to itself. Then it triggers and deals damage to itself. Then the game ends in a draw because it's stuck in a loop of mandatory actions (unless someone takes an action to stop it).
May 3, 2015 9:45 a.m.
Anything in Judgebreaker, and some weird effects with Brago, King Eternal and Oblivion Ring/Fiend Hunter. Later today I might see if I can find some weird combos
May 7, 2015 12:11 p.m.
The most confusing judge answer I can think of is an upkeep Brainstorm with a Sylvan Library on the field if you mix up your hand.
There was a page with a lot of these, which I'll try to find.
May 11, 2015 8:42 p.m.
PremiumCola says... #31
Okay guys here's a nice one,
- Let's say I have a pretty little Platinum Angel out.
- I have a Murderous Betrayal out
- my life total is -10.
Assuming I have the mana and a valid target, can I use Murderous Betrayal's ability? and if so, what would happen to my life total ?
June 2, 2015 9 p.m.
Your life is not tracked below 0, I'm pretty sure. Half of zero is zero. Therefore, nothing would happen.
June 2, 2015 9:02 p.m.
Correctuon: it does not say anything about the tracking of life below zero, so the normal numeric system still applies. Since it does not specific losing life in the card, only paying life (you can pay positive things), therefore you would gain 5 life.
Now if it said "lose" in the card, that would be a smallish conundrum.
June 2, 2015 9:08 p.m.
It is tracked below zero. It's how the ad nauseam deck in modern works.
PremiumCola What would happen is it would probably turn your life total to -15 and act as normal
June 2, 2015 9:08 p.m.
Braid of Fire is an example of positive pay, so no, I would have to disagree dan8080. It would cause him to gain life.
June 2, 2015 9:13 p.m.
HolyFalcon says... #36
You can't pay with life you don't have. So, if you're at -10, and you want to use Murderous Betrayal, you cannot.
June 2, 2015 9:41 p.m.
Nevermind, you're right. I allowed consequentialism to get in the way of logic.
June 2, 2015 9:43 p.m.
PremiumCola says... #38
Rules relevant :
118.4. - If a cost or effect allows a player to pay an amount of life greater than 0, the player may do so only if his or her life total is greater than or equal to the amount of the payment. If a player pays life, the payment is subtracted from his or her life total; in other words, the player loses that much life. (Players can always pay 0 life.)
107.1b Most of the time, the Magic game uses only positive numbers and zero. You cant choose a negative number, deal negative damage, gain negative life, and so on. However, its possible for a game value, such as a creatures power, to be less than zero. If a calculation or comparison needs to use a negative value, it does so. If a calculation that would determine the result of an effect yields a negative number, zero is used instead, unless that effect sets a players life total to a specific value, doubles a players life total, sets a creatures power or toughness to a specific value, or otherwise modifies a creatures power or toughness.Example: Viridian Joiner is a 1/2 creature with the ability T: Add to your mana pool an amount of G equal to Viridian Joiners power. An effect gives it -2/-0, then its ability is activated. The ability adds no mana to your mana pool
118.4 - says you can't pay life as a cost if you don't have the life to pay. But you can always pay 0 life
107.1b - says The game can use negative numbers in some cases. But when you're calculating costs, you can't use a negative number, instead you use 0. You can't pay negative life, so in this case, it would cost 0 life to the murderous betrayal ability.
Since Murderous Betrayal uses a calculation, the cost is 0. Although my life is less than 0, 118.4 says players can always pay 0 life, thus I can activate the ability and my life wont change.
I cannot use an ability to pay a set value of life though, think Erebos, God of the Dead. 118.4 says I can only pay I cost if my life is greater than the cost. Erebos tries to pay 2, I don't have 2 life to pay so I can't use the ability. Think of it as trying to use mana that you don't have.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #2
Are you asking for the most complicated interactions we can come up with, basically?
April 28, 2015 7:43 p.m.