How can I bring Superfriends to cEDH?
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on March 9, 2018, 1:46 p.m. by BMHKain
I'd also like to know what staples would be great for this deck; since the site is down. Also, I'd like to know which Planeswalkers would fit in a deck like this; I mean, I need card draw, mana ramp, tokens, even ultimates that are considered quick t get to. I'm even getting rid of my Mogis deck for this.
Any suggestions? & No; "Superfriends in cEDH is impossible" does not count... >_>
Boros' last chance to shine with success...
The deck is completed, kinda? Anyways, I have two new projects after this one:
Jeleva Expensive Storm (However those decks work somehow...), & Kresh Aggro Control. Thoughts? Doubt either will be cEDH competitive...
Unless you want to help me there as well, but you must be sick of helping after this crappy epic... Sorry.
March 30, 2018 8:58 a.m.
Boros' last chance to shine with success...
One cut left. I have 101. What would be the best bet to remove? From there, I'm already working on a Jeleva deck from here, then an Aggro-Control Kresh deck.
Ideas for the final cut?
March 30, 2018 11:33 a.m.
Actually, does this deck require Self-Hexproof, and/or Indestructibility for my creatures, & if so, what? BTW PookandPie, I still need one more cut anyway...
March 30, 2018 1:54 p.m.
Strike that. 3 cuts. Wondering of your thoughts on Boros Charm + Isochron Scepter , & if Lifelink occurs when striking a Creature/Walker. I just want to shut down a player FAST. Keep that in mind, PookandPie...
March 30, 2018 2:04 p.m.
PookandPie says... #6
Lifelink would work when dealing damage to a creature and a Planeswalker. It only cares that something is being dealt damage.
Boros Charm and Scepter is okay. I'd be worried about the few number of reasonable targets for the Scepter since WR is a poor color combination for card drawing so you may get a dead Scepter in hand a fair amount of the time.
March 30, 2018 6:09 p.m.
I see. One more thing: Browbeat seems like secret tech for this. With Firesong and Sunspeaker, either you gain life, or legit card draw. Opinions, PookandPie?
March 30, 2018 7:32 p.m.
Also, any alts in Boros for Anger of the Gods? I don't primarily want to blaze an opponent to hell. So now I Ask for your thoughts on Browbeat & if any alternatives for the aforementioned card. I'd like to target at least a player. Or maybe Insult / Injury PookandPie?
March 30, 2018 8:37 p.m.
NVM. Just replaced it with Faith's Reward + Oblivion Stone combo. Opinions?
March 30, 2018 9:41 p.m.
One more comment. About Chant of Vitu-Ghazi, how does it do an infinite loop with Firesong and Sunspeaker? Does all damage get negated and each one life equals 3 damage to an opponent? Doesn't sound like a loop to me... :/
Explanations? Also added Deserted Temple for Land loops, & infinite Mana. Opinions?
March 30, 2018 11:11 p.m.
PookandPie says... #11
Browbeat can be... okay. Generally speaking, it's bad to give your opponents a choice, but you'd be more apt to decide on whether or not to play that card based on your playgroup. Taking 5 (or even 8) damage is usually chump change in comparison to denying someone three cards that could potentially do more damage or enable an infinite combo, after all.
Anger of the Gods has several cards of similar function. Slagstorm, Flamebreak, Steam Blast, things like that.
Faith's Reward is a reasonable card, and Oblivion Stone is solid. If you happen to draw both, they're phenomenal, but only if you have 9 mana. That seems a little bit tough to reach, to me.
To explain Chant of Vitu-Ghazi:
You cast it (probably convoking a few mana off of its cost to boot), and then perform damage with a creature-- you can freely swing Firesong and Sunspeaker for example. The damage gets prevented, which means you gain life. This triggers FaS's second ability. The damage from the second ability gets prevented and you gain 3 life. This triggers FaS's second ability again. Rinse and repeat.
The lifegain traces back to the white instant, which is why FaS's ability triggers in this case, but not in the case of Spiritualize (which was a delayed trigger, not the spell itself). Note that a new ruling may very well change this as Dominaria's still a ways away.
Anyway, the big thing about Chant of Vitu-Ghazi is that, if you control AEtherflux Reservoir, you can turn the infinite life you gain into arbitrarily large amounts of damage.
To explain the Hallow combo, you cast FaS, and with them on the stack, cast Hallow targeting them. Even after FaS resolves, Hallow will continue to affect FaS until end of turn. The relevant rule here is 400.7b, which reads:
"400.7b Prevention effects that apply to damage from a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to damage from the permanent that spell becomes."
Hallow functions the same way as FaS do, except it's not as safe to just outright attack with FaS as it is with Chant of Vitu-Ghazi (as the latter prevents all damage from all creatures, and Hallow just prevents the damage from your own).
Deserted Temple is good, but in order to generate infinite mana from it, you need a land that produces multiple mana at a time and a way to either untap it, or copy the untap of the Temple (like Rings of Brighthearth). Boros isn't so great in the realms of lands that tap for multiple mana: You have access to Serra's Sanctum and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, but I don't think you run enough colored permanents or enchantments to make those work. You can run Deserted Temple, but I don't think you'll get infinite mana out of it in Boros colors that easily. It's pretty awesome with Maze of Ith, though, if you want to try running that.
March 31, 2018 2:53 a.m.
Fair enough. Deserted Temple gets the chop, & I'll see about Slagstorm...
Also might be removing Browbeat for Faith's Reward, & Rings of Brighthearth for the Stone...
I think that should do it for the deck. Objections?
March 31, 2018 7:07 a.m.
BTW, How is Star of Extinction useful when it targets Firesong and Sunspeaker to the point of Commander tax? Sure, you can wipe an important land out; but how to recur that? If only Boros had options for recurring Instants & sorceries... >>
March 31, 2018 8:40 a.m.
Actually, Mai Baad. XP. Opinion on Repercussion + Star of Extinction ? Does it trigger Firesong and Sunspeaker from the commander before self slaughter from Repercussion? How does the user survive the combo without killing themselves? Tickle me interested, PookandPie...
March 31, 2018 8:58 a.m.
PookandPie says... #15
Your red sorceries have life link, so you gain the life at the same time damage is dealt. So if you have 2 creatures out, and you cast Star of Extinction, you'll gain 40 life and lose 40 life at the same time, keeping your life total the same before state based effects are checked.
You'll gain an absolute boatload of life off of killing everyone else's creatures, though, and your opponents will most likely be dead (because they won't be gaining 20 life per creature and player dealt damage like you lol).
March 31, 2018 12:02 p.m.
Your red sorceries have life link, so you gain the life at the same time damage is dealt. So if you have 2 creatures out, and you cast Star of Extinction, you'll gain 40 life and lose 40 life at the same time, keeping your life total the same before state based effects are checked.
So basically everything happens at once? Got it. Also, didn't think Firesong and Sunspeaker would survive until resolution. Final question before I have to request a close on this topic: Does the Commander in question die from their effect, thus the decision on grave or command zone, & if we're dealing with a deck with seldom creatures, how is Star of Extinction going to have use otherwise? Planeswalkers are rare as well. Finally, what potential tier for the deck would you give, anw what to improve it to Tier ~2.5? Final Questions PookandPie. I'll assemble the deck soon, & potentially make a Vivien cBrawl deck if that's possible; given if she's real...
March 31, 2018 1:19 p.m.
PookandPie says... #17
Yeah, with Lifelink, all of the damage and lifegain is performed before state based actions are checked (so it's essentially all at once). And yes, casting Star of Extinction with just Repercussion and Firesong and Sunspeaker out will kill FaS and you'll probably put him into the Command Zone unless you have Faith's Reward or something in hand. If you do have Repercussion + FaS out when you cast Star of Extinction, however, any opponent with 2 or more creatures will be dead upon the spell resolving, so re-casting FaS is less of a worry (beyond that, gaining 200+ life for casting a spell and boardwiping is worth FaS costing 8 mana next time).
If you're going to be playing against decks with very few creatures, then I'm not sure I'd try to build FaS. The bread and butter of this deck seems to be, at least at this point, using damaging red spells to gain life and then kill opponents using your inflated life total. Creatures make real easy targets for this. So if nobody is playing creatures, you're pretty limited in what you can do. If you see few creatures, then definitely don't run Star of Extinction, because damage board wipes will do little good in that kind of a meta game. What are you expecting to play this against, if you don't mind my asking?
As for FaS tier... Probably 2.5 or 3? Tiers aren't everything, and they only really matter when a deck is optimized (including absolutely the best of every card. For example, Mox Diamond and Mana Crypt).
March 31, 2018 2:21 p.m.
Fair enough. Removing Star of Extinction for Kaervek's Torch. Has stack benefits, unless you know any other X burns that target each opponent... Just wondering... If you want to suggest for replacements you know. <<
March 31, 2018 2:45 p.m.
PookandPie says... #19
Some options for you that hit (or can hit) more than one player at a time:
Unless you need the spell to be more difficult to counter, I'd probably do Comet Storm/Fault Line over Kaervek's Torch if you're doing this for multiplayer.
March 31, 2018 3:15 p.m.
Actually, changed to Fault Line as instant speed burn. For who to play against, I'm trying to see how far this can go. I'll go ahead and replace one other X Burn for Kaervek's Torch & Lava Burst & Energy Bolt. Three my bad...
March 31, 2018 3:19 p.m.
NVM... Ninja'd. I'll forget the torch, but Comet Storm is stated by someone to be inneficient in this deck. Is this true? I'll also zip it about Lava burst. But Fireball seems intriguing. How useful? & yes, this is for multiplayer...
March 31, 2018 3:28 p.m.
PookandPie says... #22
X burn as a whole tends to be inefficient and not just in multiplayer, but Comet Storm is among the best of those kinds of spells (not the best but among the best). For example- with single target burn like Kaervek's Torch, and 9 available mana, you could deal 8 to one player.
If you had Comet Storm, you could deal 6 to two separate players, or 5 to three players. Instead of 8 damage, you'd deal 12 or even 15. The amount of damage to each player is lower but the amount of life you gain is higher (and Comet Storm is better at removing creatures since you could 6 to a creature and 6 to someone's face).
Fireball is a little different since it spreads the damage evenly and rounds down. In the case you could spend 9 mana but only deal 2 damage to each opponent (R + 2 for additional targets + 6 spent into the X = 9 mana), making Comet Storm more efficient since it's just X * Y, where Y is the number of times you pay the multikicker. As a single target burn, though, Fireball is more efficient than Comet Storm, though that shouldn't come up that often unless you're super low on mana.
March 31, 2018 5:11 p.m.
I see. I guess that one guy is wrong then... What to remove... & what other stuff besides X Burn...
March 31, 2018 6:12 p.m.
Wait, am I reading right? Do targets have to be different for the Multikicker for Comet Storm? If not, I can just choose differing opponents at a time? This would decide IF I should keep such Meteor Genocide... :p
March 31, 2018 6:17 p.m.
PookandPie says... #25
I think I get what you're asking, but I'll specify: The targets do need to be different for each time you pay the multikicker cost (because the text says, "Another"). This means you can't cast Comet Storm targeting the same player 3 times for 15 damage while at 9 mana, but you can deal 5 to two opponents and 5 more to a creature. For as many targets as you have (you can even target your own creatures or yourself if you'd want), you can kick Comet Storm that many times to deal X damage to each of them.
March 31, 2018 6:21 p.m.
Sou kaa... Now to find some alternatives for the X Burns... Ideas? Sorry for prolonging this. X\
March 31, 2018 6:56 p.m.
PookandPie says... #27
If you're only keeping the best of your X burn and dropping the rest, then here's some ideas:
Fiery Confluence- it's reasonable enough without FaS, but with them, you can choose the deal 2 damage to each opponent mode three times. 6 damage to each opponent for only 2RR, and you gain 18, which isn't awful (well, it's more damage than Comet Storm did in my explanation at 9 mana lol, but Comet Storm is better at taking out specific creatures I suppose).
Depending on what your opponents play, Deflecting Palm may be worth a look. If they win by attacking with creatures or by using AEtherflux Reservoir (I saw a Grixis Storm deck lose to a Naya pile because the Naya pile had Deflecting Palm when Storm paid 150 to kill everyone. It was really amusing to see, though that doesn't mean the card is good). If everyone wins via alternate win methods like Laboratory Maniac and the like, then you may not want to use Palm.
Lightning Helix is better than what I mentioned above, by the way. It deals 9 damage and gains 6 life. You gain life from both lifelink and from the spell gaining you 3 life, so you'll get two FaS triggers. I wasn't thinking too hard about it when I spelled it out earlier.
Breath of Darigaaz might be worthwhile. 3R to deal 4 damage to each player/creature without flying seems reasonable.
Chaos Warp is reasonable removal for your colors. Sometimes your opponents might win big off of it, but if you're playing against decks low on creatures, then odds are they will hit a fair number of instants/sorceries and you'll have tucked an annoying card with no repercussion. I think you used to run it but now it's gone for one reason or another lol.
With the sheer number of instants/sorceries you run, it may be worthwhile to try out Mizzix's Mastery. Not so great with the X spells, but it'd let you re-cast removal, burn, etc., from the graveyard.
March 31, 2018 8:41 p.m.
Any thoughts on the deck now, PookandPie? I'm guessing w/o burn, it's a hopeless case?
April 1, 2018 10:34 a.m.
PookandPie says... #30
I mean, you'll have to see if 12 spells that deal damage is enough to warrant use Firesong and Sunspeaker.
What I'm unsure of is how well FaS will do in a meta with very few creatures- lots of the best spread damage spells (Blasphemous Act, Star of Extinction, even the quakes) would do you the most benefit if the opponents have traditionally creature decks (decks with 25-40 creatures in them, like a lot on this site). If you're trying to do FaS as Boros CEDH, then I have no clue because you'll need a lot more hate and stax cards to get that running properly (not necessarily viably).
Like, if your meta game is full of low-creature tier 1-1.5 decks, then it may be worth trying to cram some kind of Kiki-Jiki combo in there as a happy accident you can assemble (which still wouldn't put Boros on the level of those decks as Boros is probably the third worst color combination in the entirety of the format, right after mono white). Losing that Spiritualize combo kind of hurt the 'competitive' prospects of Firesong and Sunspeaker, honestly.
(as for the Jeleva Storm deck you were talking about way earlier, I can provide more reasonable advice on that, though you can find lists and just work from there too)
April 1, 2018 2:23 p.m.
Hmph... Then in that case, quoting from "Downfall": "The war is lost..."
Though then again, Jeleva Storm sounds good, but I'll also have to find a new commander to use to rep DOMINARIA. :p
However, I need to break the mold by using more "Costly" instants & sorceries, but I may change my mind when a DOM commander intrigues me more. Just a fair warning. That & a Historic Commander sounds a lot better than I would believe...
PookandPie says... #1
Helix could be decent. It's early removal on a combo piece (lots tend to be 1/1s and 2/2s) or mana dork, and if you draw it after your Commander is out then you get 6 life and 6 damage out of it which makes it pretty reasonable removal.
Wildfire could be a good option. Losing 4 lands sucks for everybody, but it wouldn't kill your Commander and it would keep your ramping opponents in check (backbreaking versus Yisan, in my experience. A guy resolved that on t5 and completely wrecked my wife when she was going to win the following turn).
It's going to be hilarious to see you cast Star of Extinction with Repercussion on field. Good lord that will be funny against creature decks (which is what I'm assuming this will play against).
March 29, 2018 2:37 p.m.