Descisions... Descisions... New Gates... or should I just decide myself...

DrukenReaps says... #2

Since you are looking to try cEDH with Boros you may want to take a look at some of the stuff DespairFaction has put together. He has a number of Aurelia videos where the deck is quite strong and not stax.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26APorB7uBs&list=PLS9c_g3g1ETd8gXPrP08n91owK_PYOrYR

I will say that winning a cEDH game seems to always come down to one of two things, combo or a game lock. If you figure out one of those things in these colors that can happen on turn 3-ish you should have something that works competitively.

August 27, 2018 2:18 p.m.

DrukenReaps says... #3

Also just looking through [List - Multiplayer] EDH Generals by Tier the following are all tier 3 already Depala, Pilot Exemplar, Aurelia, the Warleader, Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. I don't know how much of a push these need to go up a tier but any of them seem like the best places to start.

August 27, 2018 2:28 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #4

I’m firmly with Suns_Champion in this one, as, I believe, is the majority of the cEDH community.

Tutors: Nothing you listed compares to Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, or Imperial Seal. Three mana is a bit much for a competitive tutor, and the others are a tad on the situational side.
Card Draw: Again, compare your options to Black (Necropotence) or Blue (too many options to list). Investigating is decent, but you’re still paying 2 mana for a single card. Cards that say “draw a card” or cycle merely replace themselves, without providinfvanh actual advantage. Faithless Looting helps you find the card you need, but you’re burning three cards to find two. Wheel of Fortune is a pretty good card, so I will grant you that one.
Ramp: Land Tax is a solid card. Some of your “good” ramp cards cost 4+ mana, which is far too much for ramp - ramp should be efficient, turn 1-2 plays, not your turn 3-4 plays. Mana Flare helps your opponents, and if you’ve tapped out to play it, your opponents are benefiting before you do. Further, putting lands in your hand, rather than on the battlefield, isn’t actually ramp - it does not accelerate your mana, it just ensures you can hit your land drops.
Counterspells: Most of these are highly situational, lose use in the later game, or cost too much mana.
Combos: Yes, some good R/W combos exist. Most of these would be better in a R/W/B or R/W/U deck, where you have the support the other colour provides.
Recursion: You’ve listed a large number cards that are too slow for cEDH or too situational. Compare to Black and Green, which have solid graveyard-to-battlefield resurrection or the ability to return any type of permanent to your hand.

With the current selection of mediocre commanders, there’s really no reason to run R/W, when you could add Blue and/or Black for a vastly better, more consistent, deck.

August 27, 2018 2:30 p.m. Edited.

BMHKain says... #5

Point noted, cdkime. Although I was thinking of some stuff with Protection from Dimir basically (& Green to a degree...)

Any ideas anyone else? I'm guessing I'll stick with Aurelia, the Warleader for now...

August 27, 2018 5:15 p.m.

Suns_Champion says... #6

I don't want to be misconstrued here BMHKain. I never said those things have no value in Boros, just that for cEDH, the other three colors are superior.

As probably one of the biggest fans of Boros EDH, so I am well aware of all of the available ramp, draw, tutor & etc available in the colors.

What I'm saying is that for all of these categories, there is the one, two or sometimes all three colors that do it better, meaning R/W will (almost) always be out-paced, out-drawn, out-ramped, countered, and out-comboed in your average cEDH game.

I am in no way denying that red and white have some great individual cards(Enlightened Tutor, Wheel of Fortune, and Land Tax stand out), it's just that overall, in any of the categories, I could find 5 or 6 cards in one of the other colors that are on par or better.

Let's take draw for example. This is most important IMO.

Given all the cards you've listed, here are some others to look at:

Black: Ad Nauseam, Necropotence, Tainted Pact all seem to have more raw power at a different cost.
Blue: Cantrips like Preordain, Ponder, Brainstorm and Gitaxian Probe(among others), Mystic Remora, Timetwister(direct comparison to red's best draw spell), Gush, all are either way, waaayyyyy better or simply more relevant in cEDH.
Green: Sylvan Library, Life's Legacy, Greater Good, + other 'draw cards equal to a creatures power' or 'equal to the number of creatures you have' type cards.

Not all of these are used that much in cEDH, but having a quick look at a list of draw cards in EDH will give you a good idea on why boros has no cEDH presence. You can do this for the other categories and see similar trends.

Also, it seems you have this strange notion of "making a commander tier 2.5" when that isn't exactly how it works. Commanders are placed in their tiers due to their colors and abilities and how the stack up against other decks.

"This is the middle tier. They can't usually compete against tier 1 decks, but might do fine with tier 2 decks. They usually have "the Aggro Problem," or they are wildly inconsistent. Most of the "pubstomp" decks that dominate casual meta go in here. They may have a bad reputation, but that doesn't make them tier 1." From general tier ranking

Basically, Gisela for example, is Tier three because she will never be able to consistently beat Zur the Enchanter who is tier 1, and she'll sometimes beat T2, and be able to hold her own against 2.5 but not win the majority of games. No amount of deck building will change that, thus she's at T3. Basically, you can't just build a T2 deck and stick a commander on top, the commander is part of the tier ranking.

So, in conclusion, Boros just doesn't really have the generals or other cards to help it compete in a cEDH game. It's not that it doesn't have great cards, it's just the other colors do cEDH better due to how the format actually plays.

This was a lot of words. And probably redundent after what cdkime said. Sorry. Again, I don't play cEDH, so take all this as opinion, not fact. Good luck with your deck.

August 27, 2018 5:49 p.m. Edited.

goblinguiderevealpls says... #7

im pretty sure boros and cedh are not synonymous subjects.. boros is well known for being the absolute worst colors in edh and so trying to compete in cedh while always having the worst possible color disadvantages is kind of mission impossible.. i have not once seen boros come close to victory at cedh tables, even tajic's Jokulhaups tribal is nothing more than cute in a cedh pod and tajic land destruction is probably the closest boros can get to competitive..

but tajic and aurelia are the only boros generals anyone takes remotely seriously

August 27, 2018 8:34 p.m.

enpc says... #8

Im just going to leave this here:

Bed Hair: cEDH Edition

Commander / EDH* enpc

72 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER

As I said to you a while ago, you have to play into the strength of each of the commanders, especially in Boros. I think that Aurelia can work quite nicely as a combo commadner, but as others have said, she, like all Boros commanders, are quite hit and miss.

August 27, 2018 11:16 p.m.

DrukenReaps says... #9

While we are on the subject do you guys think a single card could push boros into competitive? If so what might that card look like and would it need to be the commander?

August 27, 2018 11:49 p.m.

enpc says... #10

4-5 CMC Commander that has some form of card advantage, even if it was based on combat damage like Sword of Fire and Ice. Or even a "Discard 1, draw 2" mechanic.

August 27, 2018 11:54 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #11

I do not think that will be enough enpc. It isn’t just enough to be able to loot - after all, there are better draw engines, why would you pick a mediocre one in bad colours?

To be competitive, it would have to do something completely new. Red and White have some effects that might be interesting to use. Some that could be good off the top of my head:

Grand Melee effects from Red, particularly if combined with either a Ghostly Prison effect or soldier-generating Tyrant of the Cliffs effect. This could make for a decent Stax Commander.
Mass token generation, a la Assemble the Legion or goblins, perhaps alongside indestructible.
Banding, and the ability to confer same to others, as well as more cards that support this style. It’s a powerful ability that lacks the support needed to shine, and could easily find a home in Boros. This would likely require an entire precon themed around Banding.

August 28, 2018 2:08 a.m. Edited.

enpc says... #12

cdkime: There's a big difference between looting and net gaining on a draw. Plus white has an ok (albeit more expensive than black, but what are you going to do) reanimation package. If you were generating actual card advantage in conjunction with reanimating things (or even just returning to hand with stuff like Sword of Light and Shadow), that would make for a pretty solid deck.

August 28, 2018 3:21 a.m.

BMHKain says... #13

0_o|||

...

Whoever the Bloody Demonic Tibalt allowed this debate to go on after I got some shuteye is nuts...

As for the "Persona" of such a kind; I was having more of a Okuyasu Nijimura of JoJo fame; even with MY OWN The Hand Stand as a result.

Yep, my ambition is making me more idiotic as a result. But even Nijimura-San & my Ambition is clearly even; if it weren't for Nijimura being a complete idiot.

Just stop the debate please. I've finally decided on a cEDH Boros Commander Anyway...

August 28, 2018 9:01 a.m.

Caerwyn says... #14

enpc

Not saying it wouldn't make a solid deck, just that I don't think it is enough on its own for a cEDH deck. Adding a recursion trigger would certainty help, but the trigger on combat damage would be a huge drawback. As of the current list, only one creature in tier 2.5+ has an ability that triggers on combat damage--Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder. Yidris has everything it needs to make that work--trample, an ability which gives you card advantage, and access to cEDH's best colours.

Making it an on attack ability would go a long way toward making a competitive creature, but, at that point, we're just recreating Alesha, Who Smiles at Death. While it would be possible to make a better version of Alesha justifying the lack of Black, the card would not be particularly exciting.

In all fairness, looking at my late-night rattling off of ideas, I do not think any of my suggestions would be enough on their own either. Given the prevalence of extremely swift combos, something more debilitating might be necessary. Since Red/White will never be as efficient at card draw/other aspects of the game, perhaps instead our hypothetical commander should take lessons from what Red and White does well. Placing either Blood Moon or Aven Mindcensor's ability on an aggressively costed commander would be a strong place to start. After all, if you can't beat your opponent's at their own game, you can always break their advantages.

August 28, 2018 9:15 a.m. Edited.

BMHKain says... #15

I'm trying to take note of all of what you superiors stated, but overnight heated debates can be too much on me. My apologies for such a notion...

BTW, anyone who still cares, how good would be with stuff like Blue Ward, Blue Scarab, Circle of Protection: Blue, & Rune of Protection: Blue for enemy players for instance? Not much? Also, any suggestions for stuff that are good for , & , but nothing else in other colors without needing to sac my stuff? Also wonder how good Jaya Ballard, Task Mage is...

August 28, 2018 10:29 a.m.

BMHKain says... #16

BTW: DrukenReaps, just finished the first vid on the Aurelia playlist. Holy geez, that's some good stuff that deck has; Bloodforged Battle-Axe? Bishop of Rebirth? Guess I no longer need Sun Titan, huh?

August 28, 2018 11:32 a.m.

BMHKain says... #17

Also, just in case one still cares for this...

I'm a Soldier meant to die; For all of cEDH Boros.

Commander / EDH* BMHKain

SCORE: 1 | 1 COMMENT | 34 VIEWS

I'll be adding combos later...

Apologies for the somber name for the deck... :(

August 28, 2018 12:19 p.m.

BMHKain says... #18

Revised the OP in case anyone wants to take a gander...

August 28, 2018 1:22 p.m.

BMHKain says... #19

BUMP

Any ideas for this deck?

August 29, 2018 3:48 p.m.

BMHKain says... #20

I understand Patience is a Virtue, & stuff, but I just want some ideas for stuff to add/cut. I dun suppose any of you have any suggestions before cuts?

August 30, 2018 8:49 a.m.

BMHKain says... #21

BUMPO'D!

Any suggestions for what to put in a "Tier 2.% or better" Boros Deck? Maybe one could use a Mild Stax Package this time? I wouldn't mind other Alt. Wincons, & other great cards...

September 1, 2018 7:40 a.m.

BMHKain says... #22

@ Enral & Megalomania: Maybe you can make some suggestions for this deck as well? I'm not getting enough support for this cause. I will allow a mild stax package if needed, but I'm also going to need stuff that can slow down the board until I get a Wincon ready. Hope you guys understand...

September 2, 2018 7:45 a.m.

enpc says... #23

BMHKain: Ok, you haven't got it in long enough so I will just say it; you NEED to calm down. You have been harrassing people for help with your decks for the last few weeks on the forums, you have been spamming people to help you and you have been expecting people to do all the work for you.

Not only that but you can't seem to sit still and keep wanting help on different decks.

I'm guessing the reason that nobody has posted anything here is because anybody who has provided some help has then been harassed nonstop until they just stop responding.

If you want help, slow down, stop asking help with a new deck every two days, try to figure out some of the stuff on your own and ask specific questions. And when people give you an answer, read it and try to take it on board, rather than just wildly flying off on the next tangent you think up.

Remember, 99.99% of people who are here on this forum are here to relax and build magic decks, so any help they give is out of the goodness of their heart, not out of obligation.

September 2, 2018 10:43 a.m.

Caerwyn says... #24

I can here to write a similar message to enpc, whose post I agree fully with. There’s a couple additional points I would like to make (that I’ve made in the past, but, unfortunately, feel the need to reiterate). I know this will hurt your rather fragile sensibilities, and for that I apologise in advance.

First Point: Related to the above, you take every piece of constructive criticism as a personal attack. You apologise when others try to give you feedback, and say that you’re “stupid.” When people want to give you help, they are met with you making them feel guilty.

Know that it’s not that you’re unwelcome in the TappedOut community - we are, after all, quite open here - but rather that many of us are frustrated with how you keep conducting yourself. Look at how much effort I and others have put into helping you as a deck builder and a forum user - if we did not genuinely want to help you, none of us would waste our time.

Second point: You are constantly asking for help, but never offer any in exchange. If you look at your profile, you have spammed your way up to the 6th spot on the TappedOut ranking, while your helper rank remains “None Yet”. Your “recently viewed” decks are exclusively your own decks, help tools (such as a list of pillowfort cards), or other users decks with the same Commander. It’s clear you are only using this site for your own edification, and expect us all to play along. If you want people to be helpful to you, perhaps you should follow the Golden Rule and be helpful to others.

Third Point: I think everyone else here agrees your quest to have Boros hit Tier 2.5 is silly. We understand the tier system is completely arbitrary - your fascination with it reminds me of your fixation on the competitive meter. Second, none of us think it can be done with the current selection of Boros commanders available - there’s just no good reason to run Boros over any R/W/x general.

I understand you disagree, but, if you’ll pardon my legal analogy, the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. You’re alone in your crusade - we all think it can’t be done, so it is up to you to prove otherwise.

Fourth Point: You don’t listen to the advice that has been given. Sure, you might sometimes make the changes, but you never actually seem to understand what is being told to you. Rather than just follow advice other people say (or, as will me talked about in the next post, push back aggressively), you need to start thinking about why the advice was given. You keep getting explained the same tropes regarding deck building, without ever improving your skill.

Fifth Point: And this is probably the most important - you can be quite mean. You started the first version of this post by specifically calling out a player who disagreed with you, in a fairly obnoxious manner. This is a theme when you make new threads - you call out users who have disagreed with you in the past, in a way that seems like you want others to help you break down opposing viewpoints. That’s not cool - don’t drag other players’ into your discussions, particularly if it’s because you don’t want to debate your own case.

TL:DR

Take a deep breath and calm down - we are all trying to help you, so stop taking everything so personally and making others feel guilty.
Be helpful to others if you want help in return.
Fight your own battles, and stand up for your beliefs, rather than constantly asking others to do so for you.
Think about the advice you are given and try to internalise it.
Stop calling out those who disagree with you, or at least do so in a more respective manner.

Again, I know all this is going to offend you - that is not the intent. As stated herein, we’re trying to help you - sometimes help requires some strong words.

September 2, 2018 11:27 a.m.

BMHKain says... #25

...

Hmm... Maybe you guys are right. Maybe I am quite a monster with ambitions w/ little options.

(I'll... just deactivate the whole Boros thing; I do have another option in her stead anyway. I guess none of the Blossoms are up my alley anyway. But Buttercup # 1 might be...)

I appreciate the help, guys. but I'll have to think about this damn hard enough as a result. Maybe the Fantasy for a Tier 2.5 Boros deck is an impossibility, hopefully it's not against Selesnya...

The War is lost. I now reside for Sigarda, Host of Herons. Last question before anyone closes this: Is she a better Commander even at the same Tier as other Max Record Tier for Boros? She seems to be highly versatile in a way...

September 2, 2018 1:01 p.m.

BMHKain says... #26

Just started making such a Commander w/ Sigarda, Host of Herons. My decision is at default; It seems no matter what I try to do, cEDH Boros seems to just upset the entire community. Much less just here alone. Conjecture? I quit until I can find a Boros Commander worth of better than what Max Tier Boros cEDH Commander can do. That set in stone (Hopefully at least until the Second set in the 3rd Ravnica Block...), at least I have a WIP Asymmetrical Stax Deck for cEDH involving Aminatou, the Fateshifter in the works. Let's hope Sigarda can bring me better results... Though I do stand by at what I said sometime back; Even WotC are doing their best to give RW as a Color Identity options that can compete with the rest of the colors. That I can promise.

Shutting Down Project 2.5 Boros. Initiating All_Delete_exe...

September 2, 2018 2:38 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #27

Just so I am understanding this correctly, your response to multiple players letting you know (a) you ask too many questions, and (b) you need to focus on your current projects so you don’t have too many balls in the air is to (a) ask another question about (b) a new project?

This is what I was talking about, and why so many of us are frustrated. You keep saying you’re listening, but your actions show otherwise. Hopefully this illustration will help you some.

September 2, 2018 2:41 p.m. Edited.

BMHKain says... #28

I hope so. I'm trying to apologize for all this, but if I'm guessing why I'm not forgiven (Most likely this.). I must've been way more of a nuisance than ever before, & I regret this. Probably not to be believed either though. I'll have to at least have a new start in some way. Melira, Sylvok Outcast + Phyrexian Unlife w/ some stuff might mean an Anti-Lose Combo somehow... I guess it's a start?

September 2, 2018 3:05 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #29

Sigh. At this point, my lecturing is starting to make me look a bit like the bad guy, but your follow-up post has another error in need of correcting.

This is flat wrong:

“It seems no matter what I try to do, cEDH Boros seems to just upset the entire community.”

cEDH Boros does not upset the community on its face - in fact, it’s a fairly common topic of conversation. There have been numerous threads, articles, and entries in the card creation forum game discussing this particular issue.

What is, to use your word, “upsetting” is how you’ve conducted yourself. Again, I’m not trying to be mean, but you need to take full responsibility for your own actions, and not shove blame off on the topic.

September 2, 2018 3:07 p.m.

BMHKain says... #30

While it may not seem so, I do, indeed, full responsibility of such horseplay. Don't worry, cdkime, you're no villain as it is; I think that role might be on my behalf (Albeit not the stereotypical one.).

Hopefully trying to alleviate my own damage (Even though I don't deserve it.), wait.

Am I inadvertedly trying to make an already popular topic even moreso? Quite a shame I hate reddit though...

Maybe I'll delve into the topic again; sadly I would rather move on for awhile. Working on other things, & potentially updating my old Superfriends deck at a certain point...

(Trying to take the full responsibility in; though I might not be doing well...)

September 2, 2018 3:36 p.m.

BMHKain says... #31

Decided to quit on Boros. The Mentor Ability didn't look useful in my book, so I have many plans outside of this. So much, it just baffles my mind full of ideas... Maybe anyone could help? One is a Gate Deck. Another, Mono U, Pirate Tribal w/ more consistent options, the list goes on, and on... Guess this is what I get for Enter the Infinite...

September 11, 2018 1:49 p.m.

DrukenReaps says... #32

BMHKain consider posting your most fun or interesting deck idea in this forum

https://tappedout.net/mtg-forum/commander-deck-help/advertise-your-commander-deck/

Generally you will only get 3-5 card suggestions from a decent person but you can get a decent amount of ideas just using that forum about once a week, Just make sure you follow the rules and comment on the deck above yours :)