Ban Sol Ring?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Feb. 8, 2016, 7:57 p.m. by Dredge4life
I'm thinking of proposing that we ban Sol Ring in my EDH group. It's a very good card, but the person that gets turn one ring almost certainly wins the game. It's almost like an I win card in most scenarios. The whole idea of having a battle of wits between opponents is thrown out the window. I've brought up the idea before, and there's one person strongly against it and one person who just doesn't care. I personally really want it gone, the advantage is just too great on turn one. What do you guys think? Am I just overreacting , or is this card too broken turn one?
Steelspike says... #3
Sol Ring is banned in 1v1 commander.
Imagine a turn 1 play of: Land, Sol Ring, tap Ring into Thought Vessel, tap Vessel into either Glaring Spotlight or Elixir of Immortality. I've done that. Twice. Everyone else groans, and one guy just scooped without playing a single turn.
That scenario is definitely worth a playgroup banning, IMO.
February 8, 2016 8:10 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #4
DO YOU HATE FUN?!
and for that matter, in edh the advantage really shouldn't matter that much. ramp is good, and from the way you're describing it its as if you run no other ramp spells and have a really low land base. its a god card, and so is Karn Liberated. as is Wurmcoil Engine. and Mind Stone.
the difference is that it won't win you the game. its just helpful
and yes, you are overreacting.
just to ask, but how long have you been playing edh and whats the curve of your group?
February 8, 2016 8:11 p.m. Edited.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #5
I mean, there are arguably better rocks in EDH like Mana Crypt and Mana Vault.
Oh yeah, Voltaic Key is pretty insane too.
February 8, 2016 8:14 p.m. Edited.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #6
@Steelspike the scenario you just described... everyone seems insane...
scooping? from that?
here's a reason to ban something: land, Sol Ring, Voltaic Key, Mana Vault, Mind Stone, Thran Dynamo in that order. Kozilek, Butcher of Truth comes out next turn.
given that situation, what cards do you think should be banned from the playgroup? I'd like opinions.
February 8, 2016 8:15 p.m.
Megalomania says... #7
You're essentially banning a card because someone might draw it on the first turn. I think you are overreacting. Explosive turns are part of the game.
February 8, 2016 8:19 p.m.
I have yet to see a correlation between a Turn 1 Sol Ring and winning the game in the games that I play. I find that there are too many factors that happen during the game for the Ring to make that significant of a difference.
I suppose it could make a difference if people are comboing out at Turn 3 but the likelihood of the situation is minimal.
The question I have to ask you is, how many turns does that Turn 1 Sol Ring actually last? Does it really allow someone to win?
In my personal experience, Sol Ring doesn't allow a person to win. It might help you get your Commander out on Turn 2 instead of Turn 3 if you have the proper hand. I actually find that Turn 1 plays have very little if anything to do with who wins the game.
Of course if you can explain to me some insane Sol Ring combo that wins games I would love to hear it. I just don't see it. How does Sol Ring win games?
February 8, 2016 8:24 p.m.
I don't even know what to say to this. Sol Ring in EDH is not broken enough to warrant a ban...
February 8, 2016 8:24 p.m.
SimicPower says... #10
I agree 100% Sol Ring should be banned. Mana Crypt too for that matter. I have noticed that specifically in my playgroup, a player who drops a turn one Sol Ring usually wins, or at least has a huge advantage for the rest of the game. But more late-game oriented playgroups may differ.
February 8, 2016 8:27 p.m.
Steelspike says... #11
DERPLINGSUPREME We've banned all the old annihilator eldrazi. Along with Blightsteel Colossus and infinite wincon combos.
Well, we haven't TECHNICALLY banned infinite wincon combos. We strongly discourage folks from using them, and if we know you're playing a deck like that, everyone will target you until you're dead, then we continue on with the friendly game.
They target my Prossh deck anyway, that's why I run Bear Umbra + Hellkite Charger in it.
February 8, 2016 8:28 p.m.
Personally I think bannings in EDH should be left to each individual playgroup to decide rather than have a set list that everyone should follow. Of course if you are playing casually then you don't technically have to follow the banlist. Anyway, enough of that. If your playgroup decides that you want Sol Ring gone then don't play it, but only do so if it is agreed upon by everyone in the group. If even one person opposes, leave the matter be. Sol Ring cannot win on it's own. It is effectively ramp if you want to look at it that way, just more mana.
February 8, 2016 8:33 p.m.
I'm not trying to bash you but your playgroup sounds unexciting. lol No Eldrazi? What's the point in playing EDH then? So basically any card that is super good can't be played?
February 8, 2016 8:35 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #14
"a player who drops a turn one Sol Ring usually wins, or at least has a huge advantage for the rest of the game."
first off, no. they do not usually win. unless everyone does. in which case, the person who dropped their ring will win 100% of the time.
as for having a huge advantage, if everyone else is unable to catch up even the slightest bit and cant remove it either, then that's their fault for having built a deck missing the key ingredient every edh deck has and uses to succeed.
February 8, 2016 8:39 p.m.
Steelspike that sounds like the worst Nazi group I have ever heard of. Will you ban Counterspell and similar cards next because that interferes with other people's gameplay?
That kind of mindset belongs in French where people like being controlled.
February 8, 2016 8:39 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #16
@DrFunk27 I'm agreeing with everything you're saying, except minorly on that eldrazi thing.
no one likes annihilator earlier that turn 5 except the person who got it out. later its fine, of course, but the scenario I described earlier has made my kozi an unwelcome sight.
HOWEVER, people have adapted! they just now know they have to kill it earlier. the game shifts, so him being hated out is a thing of the past.
February 8, 2016 8:41 p.m.
This comes from the perspective of high-level play, so take it as you wish.
I don't even think that there's anything wrong with Mana Crypt. Both it and Sol Ring are insanely good cards but they don't do anything so degenerate that others couldn't stop you. Both provide colorless, so getting anything meaningful on the board with them is not consistently possible. Especially turn 1 since you couldn't have tutored for something.
Commonly, these cards may place you a turn or two above what's commonly possible without acceleration. In all likelihood, with properly built decks, your entire group should have at least some early plays. Early acceleration is disgustingly good and those two rocks are hardly the only options available to players. Heck, you even see most good lists run Mox Diamond. Many go so far as running Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, and Chrome Mox. This goes for double when you're playing with partial Paris as you should all be able to sculpt your hands a little bit better to react to early plays.
Most of the time, getting early acceleration is good, but getting too ahead on board sets you up as a potential target of hate and can leave you with very few plays to follow up if you're unlucky. They very fact that you're facing down two to seven other people makes the impact of these types of cards less threatening than if they were to come out in 1v1.
The moxen and black lotus are a different story though. They provide colored mana, so they're far less restrictive in generating explosive starts and are rightfully banned.
There's a lot of disagreements among the EDH crowd over what the prevailing philosophy for balancing the format ought to be, but most people agree that ubiquity doesn't translate to a problem with the card.
February 8, 2016 8:47 p.m.
Steelspike says... #18
DrFunk27 We value the skill of the player higher than how much money they can throw at a deck. It's much harder to turn 5 kill someone without those "super good cards".
The point of banning annihilator and Blightsteel is simple: With Blade of Selves, Quicksilver Amulet and Glaring Spotlight, you can drop blightsteel before your turn with quicksilver, attach Blade, and sac Spotlight. Game over.
For annihilator: Nobody likes being forced to sacrifice their stuff.
February 8, 2016 8:48 p.m.
You bite your tongue! Ban sol ring? It brings all commander player together and is awesome
February 8, 2016 8:51 p.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... #20
Sol ring's a good card, no doubt about it. But bannable? You're telling me that in a four player game, one guy drops a sol ring and there's nothing the other the players can do about it? Really?
Look, I've played out T1 land-Sol Ring, T2 Lotus Cobra-land-Azusa, Lost but Seeking-land-land-Oracle of Mul Daya-land-Golgari Signet. T3 hit four lands off the top and Genesis Wave for x=13. Know what happened turn four? Wrath of God.
Nothing that sol ring does cannot be undone by other decks.
February 8, 2016 8:51 p.m.
Steelspike I'm genuinely at a loss for words as to why you would play EDH in the group that you are describing. So no Eldrazi, I get it, but what other cards do they frown on? It seems like any card that makes someone upsets would not be legal in your group. It's like the ultimate group hug. I'm genuinely intrigued, because I've never heard of a group like this before. Are you allowed to play Planeswalkers like Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Liliana of the Veil and Dack Fayden? Or are those considered unfair?
DERPLINGSUPREME I'm not saying Kozi on T5, but after is just fine. There are many different ways to beat Eldrazi, and in a group, SOMEONE should have an answer.
February 8, 2016 8:54 p.m.
Megalomania says... #22
I dislike ban lists outside that of RCs. Most of the time, they are made through a consensus of people who keep losing and have given up on options like better deck-building, strategic mulling, etc. My playgroup would never even propose banning a card outside the official ban list. We are much too competitive to admit there's is no other recourse but to ban a card.
February 8, 2016 8:57 p.m.
In all seriousness, sol ring /= win. I've ancient grudges force spiked decimated and just about everything elsed a sol ring. What I'm getting at is it does win you the game, and it isn't hard to deal with.
February 8, 2016 9 p.m.
Steelspike, sounds like your playcircle is the exact opposite of your name. No Spikes allowed.
In all seriousness, I HATE the idea of banning infinite combos. Sometimes, the game is just locked up. Sometimes, no one is getting anywhere. Sometimes, some motherfucker absolutely, positively MUST combo out. Just to get rid of the stall. Additionally, banning Blightsteel because of Blade of Selves hardly seems logical. Someone can have a blocker. Someone can counter any part of that combo. Someone can remove any part of that combo. Someone can remove the Blightsteel with the damn Spotlight trigger on the stack.
Could you please explain your decision?
Onto the point at hand, if your playcircle plays significantly more 1v1 than multiplayer, I can see Sol Ring getting the axe, but no format becomes better by being more regulated, only less diverse.
Tl;dr: You're overreacting and I did Nazi that one coming.
February 8, 2016 9:02 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #25
Before we continue I should probably point out that there is a grand total of three people in my playgroup, including myself, and one person plays mono-black as his only deck. Additionally, he tends to immediately side with whoever is winning at the time, so Sol Ring may not be the biggest issue in my group.
February 8, 2016 9:03 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #26
If I'm overreacting (and I probably am), I'll be the first one to admit it. I posted this thread merely to see if this was the case.
February 8, 2016 9:05 p.m.
Dredge4life, I feel that you're correct. Maybe try to expand the playgroup a bit before banning a card, and you might find that it's less problematic than you thought.
February 8, 2016 9:06 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #28
See, the thing I don't get: why would you ban it in a casual playgroup anyways, because the game goes longer and people will generally all have large amounts of mana at their disposal, negating Sol Ring's main advantage. I mean, yes, you might gain a turn, but in a casual environment, that shouldn't make a difference...
February 8, 2016 9:08 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #29
@Steelspike theres clearly something wrong here, and its bigger than suggesting that we only have good decks and think this way b/c we spend money.
"We value the skill of the player higher than how much money they can throw at a deck. It's much harder to turn 5 kill someone without those "super good cards"."
well no shit. skill is skill, and money is money, but sol ring is neither. its cheap and effective for everyone. and yeah. it is hard to kill someone on turn 5 with out those "good cards". do you know what you want to do if you wanna kill them that early without those "good cards"? YOU DON'T. cards are good for a REASON. they win early BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD. there are decks that can win super early that probably cost less than your deck. like Sleazebag's mikaeus deck. $20. packed full of good cards, efficient cards, CHEAP, POWERFUL CARDS.
and might I add the distain for your group's perspective, or at the very least the one you are providing for them. it disgusts me.
February 8, 2016 9:08 p.m.
Steelspike says... #30
DrFunk27 Huh? We banned one card outright, and one mechanic that happens to come on a few cards from a 6 year old set.
All the rest of the infect cards are still accepted, but gets you immediately targeted if you play a dedicated infect deck. A couple of infect cards are okay because everyone has ways of dealing with one or two cards outright.
Emphasis on individual skill is an acceptable restriction to all of us, and everyone is in agreement in our feeling that magic in general has become "they who have the most money wins".
That's why we have the banlist as we do.
February 8, 2016 9:12 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #31
TheDevicer this thread needs some meme/gif love....
February 8, 2016 9:14 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #32
@TheDevicer I totally understand where you're coming from, and I agree that on its own sol ring is in no way unstoppable in EDH. It just seems to me that the person that drops it t1 has a much better chance to win and is more likely than not to win a 3 player game. The OP is factually wrong, sol ring is not an I win card, and it's not a this person always wins, either. I just feel that EDH would be a much better format without it.
February 8, 2016 9:15 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #33
really? they who have the most money win?
either you guys have a seriously shitty view of magic for no reason, or you haven't thought about certain cards and strategies enough to prove it wrong.
February 8, 2016 9:15 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #34
Also, Steelspike, money does not make a good magic player. I have seen numerous amounts of great players destroy people with their budget decks and those they beat had tier 1, unproxied decks. Skill and good deck building is far better than money can buy.
February 8, 2016 9:15 p.m.
Steelspike well there's your problem. That's a false statement there. I can throw literally every expensive card playable in EDH into one deck, call it 5-color EDH moneystuff, and I guarantee you, I will get my ass handed to me.
In fact, I just may do that. Give me about 10 minutes and I'll be back with a decklist.
February 8, 2016 9:18 p.m.
Dredge4life: It might become a slower format, but not really. And what happens to a format that someone is trying to force to become slower? Look at modern. All that happens is that something else comes along to replace it.
February 8, 2016 9:19 p.m.
Megalomania says... #37
Steelspike, you do know there is such a thing as Pauper EDH right?
Your group basically penalizes people for having money to spend on their decks. The thinking that having cards that cost a lot somehow makes you less skillful is just wrong.
February 8, 2016 9:21 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #38
@FAMOUSWATERMELON You are completely correct. I believe in hindsight that the problem with the ring is not nearly as important as the problem with the group as a whole. While I do feel that t1 ring MindStone is good, it's probably not a huge issue. The thread was kind of posted hastily, so I think I may have been impulsive. On Saturday I played a few games where the group decided not to use ring, and they felt so much better than the ones that did, so I guess that's where I'm coming from. Come to think of it, the games where ring was huge were the same ones I got mana-screwed, so...
February 8, 2016 9:23 p.m.
Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, and Sol Ring all need to be banned simply. I really should write something about Mana advantage in group games, touching on these, and why Partial Paris Mulligans are what the format should use too.
February 8, 2016 9:25 p.m.
@Dorotheus - Even if I don't agree with you entirely, I wouldn't mind reading about your thoughts.
February 8, 2016 9:27 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #41
@HSF117 I'm not saying I want EDH to be slower, though a grindy counter-war is my idea of a good time. I just don't think that ring adds enough to a 3 player game to permit those fast starts. My group already hates on counterspells, and has outright banned Mindslaver and Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, both of which are some of my favourite cards. I figure that if they want to be that level, that's fine, but ring is just as good, and people are at a distinct disadvantage when the opponent goes t1 ring.
February 8, 2016 9:29 p.m.
CastleSiege says... #42
Personally, I wouldn't care if Sol Ring was banned or not. However, it makes sense for it to be banned not because the player who plays it turn one usually wins (which isn't true in multiplayer games), but because it takes away from the diversity of the format.
Sol Ring is an auto-include in every single deck. Period. There isn't a single example I can think of where it wouldn't make a deck better. But if every single deck runs it, do those decks really have any sort of advantage over other decks that run it? No. If Sol Ring were to be banned, no ones decks would become any weaker because everyone would lose it. Have a card that you've wanted to slot into your EDH deck for ages but couldn't justify cutting anything to make room? Now you have the space for it. This applies to everyone. If nobody had Sol Ring, then players could potentially have genuine advantages over one another with new cards added to make up for its absence.
Edit: If Sol Ring were ever to be banned, the same would have to be true for Mana Crypt.
February 8, 2016 9:31 p.m. Edited.
Steelspike says... #43
JA14732 If the game stalls out, everyone just scoops and resets.
I also said we didn't ban infinite wincon combos outright. If we know you're playing a deck like that, you're the target of the entire pod. It's your job to survive long enough to combo off.
That exact scenario I posed has never happened to us with blightsteel/selves. You are correct in your statement of anyone can take care of any one of those pieces. Thing is, you must have those cards in hand when blightsteel hits field AND have the open mana to cast them. Not very likely, especially considering Prophet of Kruphix is now banned.
DERPLINGSUPREME My argument wasn't centered around sol ring. I merely gave examples as to how different playgroups view certain cards.
"and might I add the distain for your group's perspective, or at the very least the one you are providing for them. it disgusts me."
That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care what disgusts you. This is how it is in my playgroup. We've all agreed that succeeding within the restrictions we have installed is more indicative of your individual skill, as opposed to netdecking the best, most expensive deck you can find.
Here's another thing that will probably set your butt to hurting: we don't allow any sort of proxies unless you have the actual card on you at the time you play the proxy. Exceptions being basic lands, tokens and planeswalker emblems.
You have yourself an exceptionally good day! :)
February 8, 2016 9:35 p.m.
Okay, nevermind. That was a stupid hassle. However, it's worth noting that cards like Shivan Dragon or Vesuvan Doppelganger, both from Alpha, were on that list.
February 8, 2016 9:35 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #45
@CastleSiege by that logic Command Tower should also be banned. along with Explosive Vegetation for all green decks and the basic lands.
after all, if all decks run basic lands it'll just get boring. no real diversity among them, and they're pretty much an auto include.
@Dorotheus once again, I am disgusted.
February 8, 2016 9:37 p.m.
Megalomania says... #46
CastleSiege, you basically reduced Sol Ring into a ramp. Some decks find additional value from it being an artifact.
February 8, 2016 9:41 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #47
"you must have those cards in hand when blightsteel hits field AND have the open mana to cast them."
Yes, you have to have some interaction in your deck to have a better chance of winning. That actually takes a lot of skill. Isn't that what you're aiming for?
February 8, 2016 9:42 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #48
@Steelspike don't you dare be civil to me! the absolute rudeness of it is astounding....
"Here's another thing that will probably set your butt to hurting: we don't allow any sort of proxies unless you have the actual card on you at the time you play the proxy. Exceptions being basic lands, tokens and planeswalker emblems."
why would that hurt my butt? I have never used proxies and never will. they don't feel organic to me. I'm okay with others using it, but if they're just proxying the entire deck week after week, it gets to the point where it has to be stopped.
and you insinuating that I netdeck simply the cheapest deck pisses me off. I am a proud brewer of weird shit and tribal, not to mention running off of a tight budget.
edit: on the subject of you being all goody-two-shoes to me, i'm not joking. fucking stop. I'm not the bad guy here, nor are you allowed to make yourself the bigger man by turning me into one by comparison.
February 8, 2016 9:42 p.m. Edited.
Steelspike says... #49
Megalomania "Your group basically penalizes people for having money to spend on their decks"
That's just simply not true. I'll say it again... We have only banned the annihilator mechanic and blightsteel colossus.
We really don't care if you spent $3,000.00 or $30.00 on a deck. We're all quite skilled, and you can't tell me a cheaper deck wouldn't be as successful in the hands of a skilled player than a high end one.
This is getting a lot of attention, and I'm not really sure why. Our playgroup is our playgroup. Why do all of you care so much about it?
February 8, 2016 9:42 p.m.
Steelspike It's getting so much attention because
- It's a Monday night and we are all bored.
- Your groups rules go against most of the reasons to play EDH
- Your group just sounds weird lol It's not a BAD thing, but it's definitely different.
Karns_Pyromancer says... #2
I-and others i know-don't run it for the same reasons. I do know it's banned in French EDH, which is pretty big in my area. It can't hurt to bring it up.
February 8, 2016 8:06 p.m.