Ban Sol Ring?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Feb. 8, 2016, 7:57 p.m. by Dredge4life
I'm thinking of proposing that we ban Sol Ring in my EDH group. It's a very good card, but the person that gets turn one ring almost certainly wins the game. It's almost like an I win card in most scenarios. The whole idea of having a battle of wits between opponents is thrown out the window. I've brought up the idea before, and there's one person strongly against it and one person who just doesn't care. I personally really want it gone, the advantage is just too great on turn one. What do you guys think? Am I just overreacting , or is this card too broken turn one?
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #3
@Dorotheus because if you can't name ONE REASON that can't be solved by Shatter, there isnt a good reason.
February 8, 2016 9:50 p.m.
Megalomania says... #4
You did say: "We value the skill of the player higher than how much money they can throw at a deck".
Which implies having money to throw at a deck is somehow detrimental to proving how skilled a player can be.
Anyways, why ban cards with annihilator? If your group can't deal with that mechanic, I really hope nobody in your group discovers stax.
February 8, 2016 9:51 p.m.
Steelspike says... #5
FAMOUSWATERMELON That has nothing whatsoever to do with your individual skill level.
At that point of the game it's luck of the draw, since it's highly unlikely you can insta-tutor up an answer, and in that case, you must have the tutor in hand as well as the open mana to cast that AND that answer you just tutored.
DERPLINGSUPREME "I am a proud brewer of weird shit and tribal, not to mention running off of a tight budget."
You just described me perfectly. Go ahead. check out my decklists. You'll see weird shit that nobody else plays. I don't go crazy when buying individual cards. A couple bucks is the most I spend on singles, everything else is what I have on hand at the time I'm building.
Outside of occasionally buying fat packs, booster boxes and sealed commander decks, I rely on the synergies of cheap(ish) cards to make my decks work.
I'm not an elitist. I just feel that working (and winning consistently, which I do) from a budget is more indicative of your skill level as opposed to making it rain at your local game shop. I honestly don't care how much your deck is worth/cost you.
February 8, 2016 9:55 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #6
Of course it does. You have to decide whether to cast other spells, respond to other threats, which color mana to leave open, what spells to keep in your hand, when to bluff with open mana... All that takes utmost field vision. Having the right card in your hand should hardly be a problem in EDH because of ridiculous draw power, tutors, and just the number of response cards in your deck. It's when and how to use that card that will decide the outcome. And that, my friend, takes skill.
February 8, 2016 9:58 p.m. Edited.
CastleSiege says... #7
DERPLINGSUPREME - Command Tower is a land that provides colorfixing and is unnecessary in monocolored decks. It falls along the lines of any ABUR dual, fetch, or shockland. You can't really lump lands into the same category as a card that slots into every deck ever. Explosive Vegetation, on the other hand, is similar in a sense, but decks have to be running green in order to utilize it and most other ramp spells. It's not nearly at the power level of Sol Ring or Mana Crypt.
February 8, 2016 10 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #8
@Steelspike already looked at your lists. earlier, hoping to catch you in hypocrisy.
sorry to say I've see nthose kinda of lists before. numerous times.
mardu wrath deck? I have 3 in my group and seen lots cycled.
anowan vampires? I've seen plenty, though its usually volera or whoever she is.
ezuri is pretty common
derevi is common, and etb in bant is nothing revolutionary.
your sarkhan deck just looks like highlander in an extended standard, sprinkled with ravnica/kamigawa cards and no real, clear focus other than beating people to death.
February 8, 2016 10:01 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME, I mean I can answer your stray man with another.
A vast majority of banned cards in EDH right now are solved with Counterspell, Force of Will, and/or Go for the Throat, but they are still banned.
As as far as money vs. skill argument, there is a relationship between the two but they are definitely not exclusively mutual. Bans should never be dictated by how rare, expensive, or short print something is.
February 8, 2016 10:02 p.m.
CastleSiege says... #11
"Bans should never be dictated by how rare, expensive, or short print something is."
I agree with you 100%, but those are the exact reasons that 8 of the 9 power cards are banned (with the exception of Timetwister, I have no idea why).
February 8, 2016 10:05 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #12
@CastleSiege you can however argue that fixing is infinitely better than colorless mana. Its hell to be out of a color, and the ring isn't helping you with that.
and think about it later in the game: a part of the game that covers 99% of the game's total.
if you're running both, you have a 1/49.5 chance at getting them.
with just ring, its 1/99.
its not consistant. its a luxury to get it in your opening hand, and after enough rounds, it actually becomes BAD to draw.
sorta like having Gleemax if your opening hand. its taking up a slot that could be better served with fuel in early game, but later it becomes a bomb.
February 8, 2016 10:06 p.m.
Steelspike says... #13
Megalomania It's not detrimental in any way. How did you draw that conclusion from what I said?
As to the annihilator thing: Every single one of us has spent hours upon hours building and tuning our decks to be the best we can make them, all the while working inside any constraints (budget, availability, et al). You almost have to build a deck dedicated to dealing with annihilator/eldrazi, and then that deck doesn't always work very well against other decks. The notable exception would be a Sigarda, Host of Herons deck.
Also, how do you expect anyone to wrangle up an answer to one or several annihilator eldrazi after just one turn of them attacking.
February 8, 2016 10:09 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #14
@Dorotheus "A vast majority of banned cards in EDH right now are solved with Counterspell, Force of Will, and/or Go for the Throat, but they are still banned."
very true. but i do believe we were talking about the rocks, which aren't the same as those banned cards.
most of those cards have some kind of built-in evasion, and are mostly banned b/c if someone isn't aware it's in a hand and doesn't leave mana up, it spells doom for everyone else.
that's the difference: the rocks won't spell out doom on turn 1, what they lead to will. they are a forewarning that something big is happening. now we can leave mana open or simply get rid of them.
February 8, 2016 10:10 p.m.
Deckologist says... #15
I don't mean this to sound as terribly harsh and elitist as this is going to.
Sol ring isn't what's making people win games. It's your decks (as a collective group) that are not up to par that are ALLOWING people to win games. Remember that your deck needs to be able to either out tempo or slow the tempo of other decks down to your level. A turn one sol ring should not be the deciding factor in a game nor should your decks be left in the dust because of it.
/drops mic
February 8, 2016 10:11 p.m.
MrDilliams says... #16
So far none of these situations are incredibly unpreventable. If you have a player who uses lots of mana rocks to hit say a turn 2 Kozilek play more counter magic or artifact destruction. Here is a list of cards to effectively prevent that. Vandalblast, Path to Exile, Force of Will, Disenchant, Gleeful Sabotage, Natural State, Naturalize, Nature's Claim, Seal of Cleansing, Seal of Primordium, Abrupt Decay, Annul, Arcane Denial, Artifact Blast, Counterspell, Countersquall, Cursecatcher, Dash Hopes, Daze, Delay, Deprive, Disdainful Stroke, Negate, Essence Scatter, False Summoning, Force Spike, Illumination, Izzet Charm, Judge's Familiar, Mana Drain, Mana Leak, Mana Tithe, Miscalculation, Nullify, Preemptive Strike, Prohibit, Psychic Barrier, Remand, Remove Soul, Rites of Refusal, Rune Snag, Scent of Brine, Spell Pierce, Steel Sabotage, Stubborn Denial, Withering Boon, Journey to Nowhere, Suspension Field, Ancient Grudge, Artifact Mutation, Cradle to Grave, Crumble, Crush, Shatter, Destructive Revelry, Devour in Shadow, Divine Offering, Doom Blade, Dreadbore, Terminate, Echoing Ruin, Elvish Scrapper, Fury Charm, Glissa's Scorn, Go for the Throat, Hero's Demise, Hull Breach, Malicious Affliction, Overload, Oxidize, Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, Gift of Tusks, Primitive Justice, Rakdos Charm, Reprisal, Shattering Pulse, Smash to Smithereens, Smelt, Soul Reap, Sundering Growth, Tel-Jilad Justice, Terror, Valorous Stance, Vendetta, Victim of Night, Wear, Wretched Banquet.
All of these cards could most likely have stopped at least part of that combo. In here are a mix of all the colors in magic. And this isn't even all of the cards that could respond to that series of plays. Of course some of these are expensive, some probably are not the best for Commander. But if you sit here and say we should ban a card like sol ring because maybe someone will get very lucky and have all the needed cards for a t2 Eldrazi titan then all I have to say is maybe you should make it so your deck has responses to a t1 sol ring or a t2 Eldrazi. Commander is the format where players are encouraged to do insane things to dream of that miracle hand, but it is also like any other format. You need to build your deck to have responses if that miracle hand was to happen. Don't complain that someone always wins because they have the t1 sol ring/mana crypt/mana vault if you neglect to put adequate responses in your deck. Same goes for any big Eldrazi or a Blightsteel Colossus. Luck is a part of this game too and when the time comes that you have no response to that player with the t2 Kozilek hand just be excited that you saw a t2 Kozilek, and have fun, it isn't the end of the world, Murder could be the card on top of your deck.
TL;DR: Play cheap removal in your EDH decks in case of emergency. And Luck is a cruel mistress at times.
February 8, 2016 10:12 p.m.
Megalomania says... #17
"Also, how do you expect anyone to wrangle up an answer to one or several annihilator eldrazi after just one turn of them attacking."
Build a faster deck.
"I just feel that working (and winning consistently, which I do) from a budget is more indicative of your skill level as opposed to making it rain at your local game shop."
Now this is just shitty. So now your budget should now be my concern if I am to prove my skill against yours?
February 8, 2016 10:15 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #18
@Steelspike "I just feel that working (and winning consistently, which I do) from a budget is more indicative of your skill level as opposed to making it rain at your local game shop."
making a deck thats really cheap and can beat tier 1 decks in impressive and requires a lot of skill.
do you know what beats that deck?
a player with the same skill and same deck but is using strictly better cards.
working good decks on a budget is impressive, but it doesn't make you better than the people who can do it with a million bucks.
February 8, 2016 10:21 p.m.
Steelspike says... #19
Megalomania "So now your budget should now be my concern if I am to prove my skill against yours?"
Absolutely not. What part of "I feel" didn't you understand? Once more, I can't believe I need to say this again: I... don't... care... how... much... your... deck... costs. In fact, if you have a high dollar deck, I'll feel even more accomplished after spanking that ass with my (relatively) cheap deck.
"Build a faster deck." Seriously? That's your answer? Jeez I'd hate to be the guy that you were trying to teach how to play magic. I'll bet you're just a TON of fun to play with too...
Have a nice day.
February 8, 2016 10:24 p.m.
Steelspike says... #20
DERPLINGSUPREME I'll just refer you to my answer to megalomania right up there. The first part, not the second. :)
February 8, 2016 10:27 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #21
@Steelspike I don't care about how much you don't care. i care about what you said.
here's an example: I don't care about a person's race. speaking of race, mexicans are better than whites because of the "background" they come from.
February 8, 2016 10:29 p.m.
How many Eldrazi actually have build in protection? Now how many of those are legal to play?
You want cheap, fast EDH wins, play Krenko, Mob Boss, Rhys the Redeemed, Ghoulcaller Gisa, etc, etc, etc.
Each can win really fast and on a budget. Eldrazi come out slower for sure. But on another point, are Annihilator Eldrazi expensive? You can buy a good number of them for cheap.
If you can't counter Annihilator by the time they pop out you need to build your deck better. I can list countless decks that are a lot further ahead of Eldrazi popping.
February 8, 2016 10:31 p.m.
So I just got into this thread I and have to agree with what the majority of people are saying. I think your inability to deal with something like a T1 Sol Ring isn't indicative of the power of the card and more of the lack of power in your decks. As others have stated, ubiquity doesn't translate to a problem with a card. In every mana cost in every color for every strategy there is a "best" thing to do. I don't think Sol Ring is oppressive in any way. It's just good.
That being said, if your group can come to a consensus, part of what makes EDH great is that groups are encouraged to ban the cards that they want. If you guys don't want to step up the powerlevel of your decks, or if you don't want to make more tool-box oriented decks, then it's entirely within your rights to ban the card in your group. Do I think it's a good idea? No. I see this as an opportunity to improve your deckbuilding so that you can have more answers to these sorts of things. Especially if it's as you say, where the person that gets a T1 Sol Ring almost always wins.
DERPLINGSUPREME: I have to say, something you said is really irritating to me. I just don't understand how you can take offense to someone being civil to you, then call them rude for their civility. It literally boggles my mind. What's rude is you repeatedly calling the decisions of other player's playgroups "disgusting" in a format that encourages the players to play by their own house rules. In general though, I agree with what you've said, though definitely not the way you've said it.
February 8, 2016 10:37 p.m.
Just going to plug myself here for this.
I went to school for design, marketing, and psychology (no paper for any of it :( ). My area was always identifying problems and attempting to solve them... even if I didn't have the means to solve them, often asking for help or surveying gives the most insight to solving problems, when you can admit you are unsure of it. It's very scientific method.
For EDH one of the problems I would like to solve is to balance free-for-all play around 4 players, and make it so that competitive players and casual decks can share the same table without catering to Johnny, Timmy, or Spike-types.
A low floor, and a high-ceiling, without differentiating floors.
Banning cards that give permanent mana value while themselves also being super efficient, is a step toward this disparity. That would mean anything that produces more than it's initial cost by itself. ie - a 2 drop that can produce 3 on the turn it's played with no combination of help, or even a 4 drop that can produce 5 of the turn it's played with no combination of help, maybe with some exceptions.
February 8, 2016 10:37 p.m.
CastleSiege says... #25
This thread is straying from the topic. Steelspike wanted others' opinions on whether or not Sol Ring is too powerful to play on turn one and whether or not it should be banned in his playgroup on similar grounds as other cards they've already banned. Anyones opinion on their current ban list is irrelevant to his question.
February 8, 2016 10:38 p.m.
Steelspike says... #26
DERPLINGSUPREME What part of what I said is incurring your wrath, sunshine?
iAzire See, the best thing about it is, we don't have to worry about any of that anymore. We're content with it. So sorry if you're not. -shrug-
February 8, 2016 10:39 p.m.
Deckologist says... #27
so because a casual player doesn't use sol ring no one else should be able to? A casual player that probably started off by buying a commander precon deck which contains a sol ring. The name of the game is value. Not using them doesn't make you casual it makes you bad or new.
February 8, 2016 10:40 p.m.
Steelspike says... #28
CastleSiege Yeah, that wasn't me.
I'm just the subject of a ton of hate right now, and to be perfectly honest, it's pretty damn enetertaining.
February 8, 2016 10:42 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #29
@Nemesis for the civil part: its how he was being civil. calling me sire and leaving smileys at me are usually harmless. But it honestly felt like he was doing it specifically to make me the bad guy in the situation, when no one was on any higher ground than another.
as for the disgusting comments: when I say disgusting, I guess I don't really mean it as badly as its taken. Its like taco bell. I don't like it, I find it horrid, but I don't care if someone else eats it. I care when they give arguments as for why it should be the only food I eat, though.
February 8, 2016 10:45 p.m.
Steelspike says... #30
DERPLINGSUPREME Seriously? My being civil was trying to make you the bad guy?? Dude, you got some issues, dont you?
I never once suggested that your playgroup had to mirror ours. I was explaining why our banlist is the way it is. You wanted to argue and call us disgusting for our choices.
This just went from entertaining to tragic...
February 8, 2016 10:50 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #31
@Steelspike I'm not your sunshine. your only sunshine. I don't make you happy when skies are grey. etc.
this ain't my wrath btw. If I was truly angry there would either be much harsher things being said, or, more likely, an absence of me b/c I don't want epoch getting mad.
so, to answer your question, nothing in particular. I simply disagree with a lot of what you have to say and I haven't had a good argument in a while.
"I'm just the subject of a ton of hate right now, and to be perfectly honest, it's pretty damn enetertaining." I fuckin know right?!
I'm having a lot of fun
@CastleSiege meh, its a thread. it'll go where it goes, and if we are allowed that we will come across many topics that we will all think about a bit more at the end.
February 8, 2016 10:51 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #32
Meh. He plays the game how he wants. If his playgroup likes lots of big fatties or little interaction, whatever floats their boat. After that, the reasoning behind those choices doesn't affect his playgroup whatsoever, only how he's viewed on the thread and more generally on the site (no negative connotation here, just being factual). But let's move on, this is just turning into a big pile of salt.
It's also Monday, so there's that :)
February 8, 2016 10:52 p.m. Edited.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #33
@Steelspike I do. and I don't really think it was you specifically, it was the vibe I was feeling. felt 2 sides going on which should be applied and I'm just fighting for one of em.
and might I add that when people to that whole nice guy thing in the middle of an argument, it really just feels like that to me. Its a method of messing with people that I'm familiar with, and online it ain't exactly easy to tell :P
February 8, 2016 10:54 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #34
well. i think its over.
i think i'm done.
maybe
maybe we should hop over to custom cards and design fairer versions of all the cards we've argued about.....
i don't know
February 8, 2016 11 p.m.
Steelspike says... #35
One last thing: Anyone wondering about my name, I'm most definitely NOT a spike player. I'm about a 75/25 Johnny/Timmy, respectively.
I've been called Spike IRL for the last 20 years, and I'm a Steelers fan. You can work out the connection on your own.
Almost every online handle I have is Steel Spike, or some derivative thereof.
February 8, 2016 11:18 p.m.
WOW This got entertaining really quickly. I left for what, an hour? So yeah, I'm not really sure why all this drama started but if your playgroup thinks Sol Ring is oppressive, just ban it. It's not a super expensive card, it's been printed countless times, etc.
February 8, 2016 11:18 p.m. Edited.
Megalomania says... #37
Steelspike - I'm not hating on you. In fact, it is your idea that "working (and winning consistently, which I do) from a budget is more indicative of your skill level as opposed to making it rain at your local game shop." that seems laden with hate, or envy, or insecurity.
Skill and budget are mutually exclusive terms. Stop presenting your handicap as your strength.
I know it's how you feel. Just sharing my feelings too.
And yes, you can build faster. I did just that when someone in my playgroup started using a Jhoira of the Ghitu as their commander. Rather than find ways to answer to Jhoira and every eldrazi that hits the board, I decided to make my deck faster. I'm not trying to toot my own horn. Just pointing out that a swift swing of the sword can often times as effective, if not more, as a shield.
February 8, 2016 11:46 p.m.
removal is still way cheaper in mana than their threats, even with a sol ring. Sounds like you all need some artifact sweepers or at least some Disenchant or even better...some threat assessment lessons. If that person always wins...team up, kill them and carry on
February 9, 2016 2:08 a.m.
Yoshi_Sama says... #39
Turn 1 sol ring into 4 drop spells turn two is very common, it's usually always land ramps and/or a decent value card while being two turns ahead of players. The reason why I don't see it as "just another ramp card" is because it can be played turn 1, the difference between turn 1 and turn 3 is incredible.
Early turns means at turn 5, you would have the same value as you would if it were turn 7 for you. By then you'd easily have two turns to generate value faster then anyone not running sol ring. (which is why playing sol ring turn 1 is better then playing it turn 3+)
On the opposite side and someone else is generating value two turns ahead of every player, we generally decide to hate on that specific player correct? hating on players for a 1 mana card is not the fun way to deal with it. Why should CASUAL formats be scared of one player at turn 1 instead of taking a more reasonable approach and figure out who the hated guy is based on their tactics and strategy.
It's boring, it's not smart and it doesn't give commander the interaction we enjoy, it only gives us a reason to hate someone for playing a 1 mana spell. (Yes, you don't always do well with a sol ring)
February 10, 2016 8:10 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #40
If your playgroup dogpiles you for playing a CMC1 mana rock on turn 1 or turn 3 or whatever, maybe the problem isn't with you or your deck.
February 10, 2016 10:06 a.m.
When I see a Turn 1 Sol Ring I rage quit and table flip.
February 10, 2016 10:08 a.m.
Dredge4life says... #42
@DrFunk27. I'm glad you appreciate that it was a Monday when I posted this. Had I been thinking properly, I would never have done it. I'd just come off from a Saturday of being targetted by a person who went t1 ring, t2 Crypt Ghast so I was pretty salty... Thanks for the understanding.
February 10, 2016 5:39 p.m.
Dredge4life Haha, it's ok dude. You don't have to apologize. I've been salty myself numerous times. When your opponent casts Maelstrom Wanderer off Show and Tell, it's not a fun game. lol
February 10, 2016 5:45 p.m.
Yoshi_Sama says... #44
@DrFunk27 Show and Tell can't cast cards let alone cast it from the command zone.
February 10, 2016 6:57 p.m.
@Yoshi_Sama - Yo I'd be pretty salty if my opponent literally cheated in a card.
February 10, 2016 6:58 p.m.
Yoshi_Sama Just wait until I see my friend. Cards will be flung and tables tossed. Damn. I really need to learn the inner workings of Magic. lol
February 10, 2016 7:05 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #47
@DrFunk27 "When your opponent casts Maelstrom Wanderer off Show and Tell, it's not a fun game. lol" show and tell very specifically PUTS INTO PLAY.
this means that the cascades wouldn't matter and that whoever it was was fucking with you.
February 10, 2016 7:37 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME Yeah, this was quite some time ago when I first got into magic and only played EDH. We thought cards like Stuffy Doll were so OP haha Oh how we have grown over the years. Anyways, yeah, I see that now.
February 10, 2016 7:41 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #49
@DrFunk27 you seem to be saying that Stuffy Doll isn't OP.
is that correct? =_=
JA14732 says... #1
Because it's weird, and to most of us entrenched EDH players, it seems quite unfun and stifling. The way you describe your playcircle is very strange and kinda hypocritical.
Also, just scooping when a board state stalls is the most foreign thing imaginable to me. When I start a game, I aim to end that game, win or lose. If I can't win, I scoop to not waste my opponent's time. But scooping just because the boardstate is stalled and no one has any wraths? Shit's wack, yo.
February 8, 2016 9:47 p.m. Edited.