COMMANDER/EDH BANNED LIST ANNOUNCEMENT: January 2016
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Jan. 18, 2016, 11:39 a.m. by Ender666666
Summary:
- Commander-specific mulligan rules are removed
- Rule 4 (mana generation restriction) is removed
- Prophet of Kruphix is banned
Mulligans:
We promised in the last update that, with the advent of the Vancouver Mulligan, we'd be evaluating the mulligan process in Commander. This announcement is the culmination of that research. After examining several popular options, and coming up with a few of our own, we've concluded that the Vancouver Mulligan (with the standard first-one-free in multiplayer and a scry once you go to 6 or fewer) is the best option. The RC continues to use and recommend the Gis ("Mulligan 7s to a playable hand. Don't abuse this") for trusted playgroups, but that's not something that can go in the rules.
Ultimately, the goal of mulligans in Commander is to ensure that you start the game with enough lands to be a participant. With Commander games running an hour plus, it's unfortunate if you can't play anything because you miss land drops and get run over quickly.
We didn't want to solve the problems of Magic itself - mana screw and mana flood are part of the game - and players need to make a reasonable effort with their land counts, but we wanted a mulligan rule that tried to minimize unplayable opening hands. So, we brainstormed, and ran computer simulations. And what ultimately came out was... it didn't much matter. Nothing provided a clear enough upgrade to justify having additional rules for mulligans. For example, with 37 lands, Partial Paris was "successful" (which we defined as playing a 4th land on turn 4) 89% of the time versus Multiplayer Vancouver at 86%, but it came at a cost of about a fifth of a card on average. On the whole, 86% success is a rate that seems reasonable.
If you find yourself playing 1v1 (perhaps while waiting for a friend to show up), you should still use the free multiplayer mulligan. With a deck this size, variance is high enough to make not having the free mulligan potentially punishing - without the free mulligan you drop down to about 80% success rate, which, combined with being the only opponent to focus on, leads to too many unfortunate games.
Finally, its not an official rule, but we recommend setting aside the hands you're mulliganning away until you get a keeper. That saves shuffling time, and we're all for minimizing shuffling 100-card decks.
Rule 4:
We still love Rule 4. It's a nice piece of flavor and reinforces the idea that this format goes beyond simple mechanical restrictions into a deeper philosophical approach around color and mana symbols. Its effect on the game was pretty small, but that flavor message made it worthwhile to preserve.
However, the mana system of Magic is very complicated, and trying to insert an extra rule there has consequences in the corners. Harvest Mage. Celestial Dawn. Gauntlet of Power. And now, colorless-only mana costs.
Being able to generate colorless mana more easily in Commander wasn't going to break anything. But, it represented another "gotcha" moment for players, who were now likely to learn about Rule 4 when someone exploited the colorless loophole. We could paper over it (both "mana generated from off-color sources can only pay generic costs" and "you can't pay a cost outside your color identity" were considered), but a lot of the flavor would be lost in the transition, defeating the purpose. Without the resonant flavor, Rule 4 was increasingly looking like mana burn - a rule that didn't come up enough to justify it's existence.
We don't expect removing the rule to have a big impact. Some Sunburst and Converge cards might get a bit more of a look. Sen Triplets works more like you'd expect, as does Praetor's Grasp. The clone-and-steal deck, already one of the most popular archetypes, gets better, but less than you might think. It turns out there really aren't that many impactful non-blue activated abilities on cards that commonly get stolen in Commander. It's OK if you can regenerate that creature you just stole, and you'll need to work for it a bit anyway.
One side benefit to the removal of both the color production and mulligan rules is that, in terms of game play, Commander becomes a normal game of multiplayer Magic with a higher life total and a set of additive rules to bring a new piece (your Commander) into the game. That's good streamlining in terms of teaching people the format and reducing gotcha moments while still preserving the essential flavor of Commander.
Prophet of Kruphix:
This was challenging. Prophet is not a traditionally obvious problem card for Commander, so we chose to take a conservative approach and see if casual groups could adapt. In the past, we've seen unpopular cards generate a lot of outcry, but be handled reasonably well. Powerful cards existing is OK and exploring them responsibly is an essential part of Commander.
This didn't happen with Prophet. Casual groups haven't been able to work around it and problematic play has not dropped off in hoped-for ways. Instead, the primary approach has been to steal it, clone it, run it yourself, or get run over. Ultimately, it seems the card is too perfect - it does everything U/G Commander players want to be doing and it does it in a way that makes counterplay difficult. With traditional boogeymen such as Consecrated Sphinx, you're forced to expend a lot of your mana to cast it and will have a challenge protecting it as the turn goes around the table. With Prophet, it has virtual protection built in, negating that disadvantage almost immediately.
Prophet becomes only the second multicolored card on the banlist (after the structurally-problematic Coalition Victory). It's telling just how pervasive Prophet is despite such a restriction. Yes, U/G is the most popular color combination in Commander, but we've reached the point where Prophet is driving U/G deck choice, rather than vice-versa. That's centralizing in ways we can't ignore, so it's time for Prophet to take a break.
Whenever we decide to ban a card, we take a long look at the current list to see if any cards can come off, as we believe a casual format is better served by a minimalist banlist. After extensive discussion, however, we concluded that everything on the list served a purpose, so we won't be unbanning anything. It's been two years since the last (non-consolidation) card got banned, which is an acceptable growth rate!
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18057
There seems to be some confusion about what the removal of Commander Rule #4 means, so here is some clarification.
The normal Commander rules regarding Colour Identity still apply. You may only include Spells, Artifacts, Planeswalkers, Creatures and Lands in your deck that match your commander's Colour Identity. The ONLY exception is with cards where mana symbols show up in reminder text which explain a mechanic, for example, cards with the "Extort" mechanic. Crypt Ghast is an example of a card that is purely Black, even though there is a 
symbol in the reminder text that explains how the "Extort" mechanic works.
Your commander's Colour Identity is determined by each and every COLOUR of mana symbol, printed anywhere on it (Again, with the exception of reminder text).
Cards with the mechanic of "Devoid" are colourless, but still fall under the normal rules in Commander when determining its legality for your deck. Want to play Transgress the Mind, but your commander is Green? Sorry, you can't. Transgress the Mind may be colourless, but it has a Black Colour Identity when you are determining if you can legally include it in your deck because it has 
in its casting cost.
What the removal of Commander Rule #4 means is that lands like Forbidden Orchard, Mana Confluence, City of Brass, and cards like Birds of Paradise can now legally make you mana of ANY colour (
), regardless of your Commander's Colour Identity. In the past, if something caused a mana of a colour that wasn't part of your Commander's Colour Identity to be added to your mana pool, it INSTEAD added that many 
to your mana pool.
Oh, and IS NOT A COLOUR. Got it?
So what about Command Tower? Can it create any colour of mana now? NOPE. Because of the wording on Command Tower, it will still only create 1 mana of any colour IN YOUR COMMANDER'S COLOUR IDENTITY
I hope that this helps clarify things for anyone who might be confused.
canterlotguardian Yes, let's also print a Wrath for just or a 15/15 for because cost isn't relevant at all.
January 18, 2016 2:18 p.m.
@ xcn - Lol you know I was going to reply to Canterlot but then it was so absurd that I threw my arms up in frustration. Cheeky, but hopefully people get yer point.
January 18, 2016 2:23 p.m.
All these comments and not one by Epochalyptik? I'm simultaneously worried and impressed.
FWIW, I'm pro all these changes. Sure losing Prophet of Kruphix sucks, but she was degenerate and probably needed to go.
January 18, 2016 2:23 p.m.
Yeah, I'm a bit confused on their banning of Prophet of Kruphix. Sure, it has a nice effect. And sure, there are a few decks powerful decks where it's worth running (Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, Kruphix, God of Horizons, Animar, Soul of Elements, Roon of the Hidden Realm) but by that logic, Elvish Mystic) should have gotten the ban hammer as well.
The problem I see is that she's just not all that strong at higher levels of play. Sure, people piloting incredibly weak decks might groan and complain when one resolves, but any deck worth its mettle need not fear Prophet in any serious way.
The argument that she lowers the enjoyment factor of the game is invalid as well. When Stasis, Armageddon, Winter Orb, Smokestack, and other similar cards are allowed in the game, it's beyond laughable to point to something like Prophet.
January 18, 2016 2:29 p.m.
NarejED- "The problem I see is that she's just not all that strong at higher levels of play. Sure, people piloting incredibly weak decks might groan and complain when one resolves, but any deck worth its mettle need not fear Prophet in any serious way." <- This is a problem. Because not everyone plays that way. Just because people can play competitively does not mean that the RC should only cater to those individuals.
January 18, 2016 2:36 p.m.
@JWiley129: By that logic, nearly every "strong" card in the format should be banned then. Anything that weaker decks struggle with should immediately get the boot.
January 18, 2016 2:40 p.m.
Ender666666 says... #8
It's interesting seeing this discussion play out * Grabs Popcorn *
January 18, 2016 2:42 p.m.
canterlotguardian: I can see you really like Prophet of Kruphix and I'm right there with you. It and the last banned card (Sylvan Primordial) were both favorites of mine and I played with them a lot.
However, I think a couple things needs to be cleared up.
Any time I played Prophet, the circumstances that the RC described DID happen. Any time I played Prophet, I was in a position where I could easily abuse it or gain a huge advantage. It wasn't fun for my friends to play against it, and as a result it wasn't fun for me to play with it nearly as often. I only say this because I want you to know that your situation can be easily rebutted by someone stating their situation is the exact opposite. But I digress. This isn't my main point here.
Commander is a format in which you and your play group can set any rules that you all deem fitting. If everyone is okay with you playing prophet, then play prophet! If you're going to some sort of tournament or sanctioned event, however, you need to understand that not everyone feels the same as your friends do. But by all means, continue to play with the card in your group. No one will try to stop you, man.
January 18, 2016 2:46 p.m.
People are gonna discover pretty quick that flash was only half of what prophet did. More and more people are just gonna see seedborn muse pop up in just as many g/u decks and start complaining that instead of being heavy creature base, they're gonna start using more rude mana dumps and instant speed shenanigans. As nice as it was to be able to flash creatures in my Jenara deck, its far from the reason I ran prophet, and far from the reason she was really scary.
I agree that prophet was a little more than just "unfair" with respect to board state gain, but here's hoping those same control players don't just run seedborn muse for the untap prompting everyone to gun after her. As slipery a slope as that is, all you gotta do is look at the smash community for what can happen.
January 18, 2016 2:46 p.m.
The way I see it, there's a major divide here. Prophet isn't busted at high-level play. That's a given. Whether or not the RC should balance the format with consideration for this group of players comes largely down to design philosophy.
January 18, 2016 2:47 p.m.
canterlotguardian It doesn't matter whether you or your playgroup uses it and abuses it or not, what does matter is that there are people who do. It's the same for banned lists for other formats. There are always going to be decks built around breaking cards with the most potential, and I'd say Prophet of Kruphix is high up there.
January 18, 2016 2:47 p.m.
I guess I need to point this out to other people as well. Please, if you have issues with the Banlist for Commander, take it up with your play group!
Epoch has said it multiple times and I agree with him: The RC banlist feels mostly irrelevant to non-competitive Commander players (sorry if I worded that wrong Epochalyptik). People, just play what you want to play and have fun! The banlist is only there to settle disputes, and if a dispute still cannot be resolved, players can go their own ways.
January 18, 2016 2:50 p.m.
NarejED - That's not what I said. The logic, "Well any strong deck can deal with it" implies that the RC should only cater to the top level players. This is wholeheartedly wrong. Despite Epochalyptik's (correct) assertion that Commander is a social format, Wizards markets it as a casual format. That means a majority of Commander players will lean towards a more casual play-style. But, just as the RC shouldn't cater only to the top level players, it also can't cater solely to the casual players. The RC needs to tread a middle-ground with regards to its bannings. I would wager that even for those middle-ground players, Prophet of Kruphix is an oppressive force. Just this month, I was playing a game with a Mizzix of the Izmagnus deck and copied an Ezuri, Claw of Progress's Prophet. I proceeded to win the game because I got 3 untap steps. And that was with both opponents attempting to remove my Prophet. That card won me the game.
Bottom line, even if Prophet of Kruphix is not "impactful" at the most competitive levels, that does not mean that banning it was incorrect. There are more Magic players than just you or I. And the RC has the difficult job to manage the expectations of all of us.
January 18, 2016 2:51 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #15
Prophet is gone... sad. I knew it would happen eventually though. But rule 4 is gone. This means I can actually play the Commander I have always loved: Sen Triplets. Ah good times.
January 18, 2016 3:10 p.m.
Lightpulsar9 says... #16
Well there goes my Prime Speaker Zegana deck shenanigans. I usually used the prophet with DEN, zegana, and Laboratory Maniac to deck myself and win on everyone's turns. I'm sure my opponents are happy about this. Meh. I suppose Seedborn Muse will have to do.
January 18, 2016 3:12 p.m.
Joshtrex1996 says... #17
I'm with you 100% canterlotguardian. I love using prophet of kruphix, and my girlfriend runs it in her Edric deck. It's one of her favorite cards in the game and now it's banned in the only format she plays. I like the removal of rule 4, but am fairly bothered by the banning of prophet.
January 18, 2016 3:17 p.m.
oozeoozeeverywhere says... #18
ok ban prophet but not seedborn?ive been waiting for deadeye to be banned and figured it would before prophet would
January 18, 2016 3:21 p.m.
DiamondFlavor says... #19
lightpulsar9 no worries, you can still Deadeye Navigator + Palinchron combo into infinite Prime Speaker Zegana to Laboratory Maniac. And your opponents have even less opportunity to interact than they would've with Prophet of Kruphix.
Prophet is potentially very powerful, and the ban is reasonable and fair. But Deadeye Navigator is still worse.
January 18, 2016 3:22 p.m.
Ender666666 says... #20
Regarding house rules, playgroups, and commander as a social format, I think it really comes down to it being a lot easier to have a mid-range base line and collectively agree to power up by allowing certain cards in your group, than it is to have a high level baseline where nothing is off limits, and something becomes problematic where you need to effectively tell someone that you are house ruling that they cannot play their favourite card.
When a playgroup agrees to power their games up, it's a feel-good (oh no I sound like Sheldon!) decision and it's easy to talk about how it affected the games and tone back if needed.
When a playgroup decides to selectively ban something, it's can certainly come across as ganging up on one or a few players by the larger portion of the group... It breeds resentment, and hurt feeling, and can cause a rift in a group that can quickly escalate to into personal attacks, and things far worse than the rules of a card game.
So, I say kudos to the RC on this, and if you disagree, talk among your friends and make your own rules for your own group.
January 18, 2016 3:24 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #21
Prophet's banned? You're a month late for Christmas, RC. But thank you!
Also, my Lazav deck can now do more dumb stuff with other peoples' cards. So that's cool!
January 18, 2016 3:25 p.m.
CanadianShinobi; Sen Triplets is super broken now, especially when paired with Chromatic Lantern
Heck, even Command Tower is overpowered w her
January 18, 2016 3:25 p.m.
@greyninja, Sen Triplets are not a good commander. Aside from Strionic Resonator and Paradox Haze, there's really nothing you can do to build around their ability. That forces you to run good stuff or steal effects. One of these strategies isn't problematic at all since it relies on the individual value of cards while the other scales with your player group. Even with the current changes, the triplets remain an unattractive option for an Esper general given your other options, mainly Zur.
January 18, 2016 3:35 p.m.
rockleemyhero says... #24
So does this mean everyone can run Bojuka Bog? Kinda lost on rule #4 being taken away...
Or is it just the fact that you can produce any color mana in your mono green deck with a City of Brass?
January 18, 2016 3:48 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #25
TheDevicer this is true. But I am pleased nonetheless. It means I'm not forced to run Mycosynth Lattice, though I probably should. Still, the Ladies have always had a soft spot in my heart.
January 18, 2016 3:51 p.m. Edited.
nobu_the_bard says... #26
Sen Triplets isn't broken. I have a Boros deck that's mostly cheap auras and creatures. I've had people use things like Bribery on me, expecting to find Aurelia, the Warleader or something, only to discover the deck is entirely synergistic combinations of weak/cheap cards that are of less value individually; it makes the deck strong against stealing effects (unexpectedly- was done for budget reasons originally).
Sen Triplets is only as good as your ability to leverage your strongest opponent's spells. That's pretty tricky, particularly in multiplayer, and particularly as she'll draw a lot of heat from players scared of her.
January 18, 2016 3:53 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #27
@rockleemyhero: No, because it has a color identity of . It means that if you have for example a Darksteel Ingot or a Birds of Paradise, you can now produce mana of any color as it would in other formats.
January 18, 2016 3:57 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #28
I was busy, hence the no reply.
Anyway, I'm glad to see that the RC is now actively acknowledging function as an (if not the) important factor in format management. I actually had a discussion with Sheldon in the fetch change rumor thread over on their site about why the RC should focus on function first and flavor second. I don't know the extent to which that impacted the RC's decision making, but I like to think it helped.
That said, the Rule 4 change does make it somewhat more difficult for decks to pay for costs. I suppose that's a way of balancing them out.
I like the Partial Paris mulligan better than the Vancouver mulligan, to be honest. The important difference in Commander mulls versus 60-card mulls is that you've got 99 different (well, aside from basic lands) cards in the deck, and only a fraction of them are relevant at all during the early game. The Partial Paris gave you a better chance at setting yourself up for a smooth game.
Traditional mulls, including the new Vancouver mull, don't help you actively address the unnecessary cards in your hand; they just give you a chance to roll something better, as it were. And with that chance comes a corresponding chance that you'll roll something worse. In 60-card, where you play sets or trios of the critical cards, you're less likely to get screwed. But in Commander, especially in the battlecruiser style of Commander the RC are well known for preferring, you're at much greater risk of land screw with traditional mulls.
And for those saying that it doesn't make sense to target Prophet of Kruphix over, say Seedborn Muse or other cards, consider the fact that Prophet of Kruphix is a very strong enabler that basically allows you to play your hand, including creatures, over the course of a turn cycle. Because it's in , you also have access to plenty of draw power, which means that you're generating very large advantages every cycle. Seedborn Muse gives you access to mana, but it doesn't allow you to exponentially increase the rate at which you can play permanents.
As for Deadeye Navigator, I'm relieved that it isn't banned (because my only Commander deck relies on it). However, I am interested to know the RC's logic for it. I find that it's most prevalent in combo metas for obvious reasons, and the fact that the RC hasn't banned it yet indicates to me that it doesn't severely warp their experience at the more casual level. Which, I think, makes sense given the card's functions and the fact that it's only game breaking if you build around ETB effects such as you would in a combo deck or in a deck that already has a number of other blink engines. It's not the kind of card you just throw into any deck and expect to see outrageous results.
January 18, 2016 3:59 p.m.
TheDevicer, CanadianShinobi, nobu_the_bard; Sen Triplets are by no means untouchable. She is in fact a HUGE target, because most people don't like you playin their spells
But, if you do get to where you can play things from an opponent's hand, I always choose to play their lands over mine. That alone can change the outcome of a game. If they needed the land drops and you disrupted that: they're pissed
I did run Zur the Enchanter for years, but it is very repetitive. You tend to search for the same pile of cards each time (depending on opponent decks). I tore it apart for Sen Triplets because every game will be unique, guaranteed
TL;DR Sen Triplets are not broken or OP, but they're a heck of a lot more dangerous now!
January 18, 2016 4:07 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #30
So just because you personally don't abuse doesn't mean LOT of others won't. I have seen it abused enough times. It makes the games drag on while one player plays a turn within everyone's turn.
No one wants that.
January 18, 2016 4:10 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #31
Pretty much exactly my feelings on the matter, Epoch.
It is going to be even more questions to ask new groups, but that's a minor annoyance.
January 18, 2016 4:16 p.m.
As to people saying Deadeye Navigator shouldn't be banned, let's put it this way... He's probably the main reason why cards like Sylvan Primordial and Primetime have been banned.
January 18, 2016 4:19 p.m.
I had already increased my land count in all commander decks because of the local mtg community here not using partial Paris.
The rule4 thing seems likely to bend the game some. Krenko, omnath, Talrand, (and eldrazi) now have a lot more options. I guess that green/blue/black ramp/draw/tutor staples will appear everywhere now. White - and ESPECIALLY red and r/w commander's are all instantly better over night.
Remember once upon a time when commander's were picked "just for colors"? Skittles can now be my pump infect commander.
Muah
I swapped my prophet out for Yeva, Nature's Herald - only half as fun but still fun for my roon deck. Even with many ways for green to tutor for creatures, prophet was only a one-of that tended to be a target. She needed to be combined with lots of other things to win. However, everyone's turn became the prophet controller's turn. It could quickly become sickening.
I feel pressured to play converge cards or eldrazi cards now.
Meh - I look forward to a set coming out where half the cards don't have flavor that I distinctly dislike.
January 18, 2016 4:21 p.m.
Wow so glad i already changed out Prophet of Kruphix for seedborn muse, vedalken orrery and leyline of anticipation. now i'll be the only person in my meta with a Prophet! good job rules commitee you just won me a few dozen games!
January 18, 2016 4:24 p.m.
Hmm, the design space of commander just exploded. I can have mikkaeus (lunarch or unhallowed - either would be amazing) commanding my previously weaksauce abzan +1/+1 counter deck.
I think I will make krenko evenore chaotic with some blue - which will also make him even harder to get rid of. Certainly, enough of the goblins in that deck are expendable so it won't take much to add the splash. Now every commander can have diplomatic immunity. I think Talrand will get white for cheapass draw-go fog and protection.
Luckily for everyone, my brain just exploded so I will stop now.
January 18, 2016 4:41 p.m.
guessling - You seem to misunderstand. The color identity rules aren't changing, you can't include blue cards in your Krenko, Mob Boss deck. What is changing is that if you have a land like Mana Confluence in your Krenko deck, it can produce now. However you still can't include Blue cards.
January 18, 2016 4:43 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #37
@guessling: The color identity rules for deck construction still apply. You can't include cards that are outside of your commander's color identity, but you can produce mana outside of your commander's color identity.
January 18, 2016 4:44 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #38
I forgot to mention- I like the acknowledgement in this write-up that the RC recommends a different Mulligan than what is in the rules, but I liked Partial Paris a lot and will probably request games I play continue to use it.
It's an easier thing to do than agree on different deck construction rules; once everyone has gone and shown up the decks are already made after all, so it's a "House Rule" that's more likely to actually see use. I find it less restrictive than when they change deck construction rules so it doesn't bother me overly much that I like the new Mulligan rule less than the old one.
January 18, 2016 4:46 p.m.
KillDatBUG says... #39
Prophet of Kruphix banned? Good. That card was fucking broken; in fact, it was so broken that this deck I created won so many games... and all it did was find Prophet and play it.
January 18, 2016 4:47 p.m.
Ahh - that is good and bad. I don't really have time to wrap my head around that kind of change anyway.
Also, it would bend the game ALOT. In the end I am not sure what edh would be if the kind of change I misunderstood would come to pass.
January 18, 2016 4:50 p.m.
I think ultimately moving to the Vancouver mulligan makes the whole mulligan process more swingy and harder to manipulate. I know I have practiced Partial Paris mulligans extensively to the point that I know just how far I can push it to get to that Leyline of the Void and several of my more"casual" minded friends hate when I find it that way. Under the Vancouver rules I can no longer keep a hand like this if I want to mull to Leyline:
And I know it seems crazy to toss a hand like that, but against some opponents I absolutely would partial some of it away, keeping just 2 lands, Skullclamp and Bitterblossom to try and get to that Leyline. Against some opponents I would toss all 7 if they could get recursion combos fast enough, but against something like zombies I would keep the lands+ Blossom + Clamp only go 3 deep because at that point I would either draw into it during the first 4 turns or I just wouldn't have if I continued to make partial mulligans.
Now I have to ditch it all or deal with the fact that I may not get the silver bullet I need in time to stop a crazy Rooftop Storm combo. The flip side of this is against a fast combo opponent like Nekusar, the Mindrazer, it's harder for them to mull to the perfect start while keeping some stability. All in all they have put some of the luck back in taking mulligans which helps newer players without as finely tuned decks I would think because they dont know how to take advantage of Partial Paris.
January 18, 2016 5:08 p.m.
YES! Suck it partial Paris. That mulligan method was bad and I am more than happy to see it gone.
I actually have to say this is kind of cool about rule 4 being gone. Cards like Bring to Light and Solarion are more playable (especially with Chromatic Lantern) however I cant see this overpowering anything other than clone/steal decks which were always self limiting anyway.
And Prophet of Kruphix - finally.
January 18, 2016 5:14 p.m.
DiamondFlavor says... #45
Epochalyptik I see your point about Deadeye Navigator needing to abuse ETBs, but I think that ETBs are ubiquitous in the format to the point that it almost negates the "build around it" argument. At the higher levels, I feel like U will always play it with Palinchron, Venser, Shaper Savant, etc. and at lower (and more casual levels) it will still be played with so many staples that it's nearly an auto-include.
Certainly anecdotes are not universals, but in my experience ETBs are so prevalent and powerful that if my strategy does not actively depend on them, I'll go the other way and cut as many as possible for Torpor Orb (and Hushwing Gryff) to stifle opponents who didn't do the same.
Point being, at the higher levels it's part of a combo to beat. Even at the lower levels, it provides crazy advantages that become very difficult to race, in every color combination.
The same argument can be made for Prophet of Kruphix: it's a powerful enabler, but you still need to include a critical mass of draw, counterspells, and threats to keep it going. The argument then is that it is so lucrative as to be built-around in casual play. Surely the same can be said for Deadeye.
January 18, 2016 5:18 p.m.
The issue with Prophet of Kruphix over Deadeye Navigator is that traditionally DEN would only go in combo decks where as prophet found her way into every deck that was UG.
January 18, 2016 5:23 p.m. Edited.
I think the Prophet ban was legit because it was a casual card that easily created unfun situations in casual groups. It usually led to one person was taking multiple turns (during other people's turns), a huge advantage, and all for one card and 5 mana. There are other cards like that, but not with Prophet's ubiquity or ease of use. I think this was a "for the health of the format" ban, rather than a direct power level issue, and I think thats legit.
I love the removal of rule 4. It always seemed like a rule that killed fun in favor of flavor. Most new players didn't even know about it until they got excited about doing something cool, and someone stopped it. Super fun cards that scream for commander play, like Hedonist's Trove, are now worth playing and thats rad.
Remember Commander is primarily a casual format, and anything that aids in the health of the casual/fun aspect is a plus in my book. I get the arguments from the people who play it competitively, but thats not what the rules committee should concentrate on. If you want competitive magic, there are plenty of other formats you can play.
January 18, 2016 5:31 p.m.
Robiveli305 says... #48
Question who decides on cards in this free format to get banned?...also who appointed this committee on this free casual format or stated one was need in the first place? I have a total of 20 plus Edh decks but I haven't seen no type of prize support..planewalker points..where I play Edh at or anywhere? All I keep reading is players crying about how power cards are or aren't? Why play Edh if the cards are going to keep getting banned? Build better decks people!...or maybe the people who are winning should let players win sometimes...wait a minute aren't all formats in mtg is about winning in some shape or form so why Edh should be any different...I play for fun and don't get mad at combo decks that gets to partial Mulligan then combo out turn 3 thru 5. The main reason I don't play standard cause most of the decks are just copied of what's winning at the time I'm sure most of us can agree with this. Standard,modern and legacy all has a banlist within their "prize support winning" format and we simple just enjoy Edh in which prizes not included or maybe they're and I didn't get the memo. Seiously Edh caught my eye like many of us prior to the "Commander box age "...was because we can play what the heck we wanted,"even prior to a self appointed committee starting a ban list or before wizards of coast started marketing it as aka "Commander" for that matter. I feel every player should have the rights to play what they want to in their "Casual" decks of Edh and their play group should decide if to or when to banned a card or combo piece,not to be govern by the masses. Edh in my opinion, was to enable people to enjoy mtg as a causal format as they see fit to and with cards that normally wouldn't play in other formats and under no other rules outside of basic mtg ruling on a mtg card(s) or mtg as a whole;such as thing that changed the effected the game entirely. My play group don't ban cards at all unless we agree to as a group. We overcome challenges as they come and since none of us are Edh champion nor won anything playing Edh merely for fun and we don't get bent out of shape over a couple of cards in a 100 card deck someone decided to play that could be considered broken or not. If that was the case we would have banned "Serra Ascendant" right out of the gate or banned infinite combos..lol. I believe I made my point...note this is just an opinion not a debate...at the end of day we as players are going to do as we see fit, as player of Edh I don't recall taking a vote nor asking for a committee to govern how and what can be played in Edh period...because of it being casual...the question did any of us? I guess that's the nature of people to always wanting to set boundaries on something?? Enjoy your games people...peace gg
January 18, 2016 5:36 p.m.
Gahiji_Prince says... #49
FOR EVERYONE CRYING ABOUT PROPHET BEING BANNED I HAVE ONE THING TO SAY NO MORE UNTAP ON YOUR TURN AND CASTING WITH FLASH. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABABAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHLONG LIVE DAXOS THE RETURNED
January 18, 2016 5:38 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #50
@Robiveli305: The RC is the group that created EDH, which became Commander. They didn't just come out of nowhere...
Further, Commander isn't a casual format. It's a social format.
canterlotguardian says... #1
You know why I'm not ok with it? I've ran four different iterations of U/G/x EDH since I started playing Commander. All four ran Prophet of Kruphix. And you know what? Not one single game did anyone in my playgroup ever see it and think "Shit, it needs to die" or "Shit, I need to copy it." So their reasoning behind it is not universal in the slightest, like they purport it to be.
Second. You know when it gets out of hand? When the person playing it lets it get out of hand. If I use Prophet of Kruphix for degenerate things, then yeah I can see people getting pissy about it. If I use it like how I always use it- as an out when something is attacking me in specific and I need to Hoverguard Sweepers to bounce a threat or something- then there's nothing degenerate about it. But since the majority abused it, the minority gets to suffer. And that's bullshit to me.
January 18, 2016 2:17 p.m.