Competitive EDH
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on May 12, 2017, 9:50 p.m. by buildingadeck
After a lot of discussions with less competitive players, I have found that competitive EDH is frowned upon by many based on the notion that "EDH isn't designed to be that way." I would like to advocate for competitive EDH, not as the only way to play, but as a legitimate way to play the game. I will also outline a few guidelines on how to play competitive EDH (nothing on what your deck should look like, more on how you interact with others).
In his outline of Commander Rules, Sheldon Menery, the creator of the format, writes: "Commander is a Magic:The Gathering format which emphasises multiplayer play, social interactions, interesting games, and creative deck building." All of competitive commander is contained within these bounds, and I will relay how.
Obviously, competitive multiplayer EDH is, well, multiplayer, so there isn't much explaining to do there. Competitive play is also a social interaction just as much as casual commander. Assuming we can define social as done in communion with others and, generally, with conversation amongst players, I have yet to play a competitive game in which this is not the case. Check out this video made by Laboratory Maniacs, a YouTube channel dedicated to competitive EDH, in which the players make puns, chat, and laugh while playing a 3-way competitive game. I would certainly consider this to be social.
Using the LabMen's video as a reference, I think we can attest to competitive games to exhibiting "interesting gameplay." My argument for this based on the linked video is that, though Cameron took control very early, the first few turns were highly interactive: a Thorn of Amethyst completely shut down Dan's Thrasios/Tymna list by restricting his already strained mana base; Gilded Drake stole Yisan, the Wanderer Bard from Simon, which stops the Yisan deck by restricting him from casting his primary engine; the Swan Song targeting the Green Sun's Zenith of Simon's stopped him from getting a win condition or a way from regaining control of Yisan; the Shadow of Doubt and Ghost Quarter interaction was interesting, as was the choice to further restrict Dan's mana base in order to increase his odds of winning (in a 3 man pod, chances are 33%; in a 1v1, 50%; of course, Yisanless Yisan doesn't really stand a chance against Tasigur, but still). While the game may not have been as "fun" as a game posted by the Game Knights where revenge plays are rampant, and the entertainment aspect is upped, it was "interesting" nonetheless.
The last tenant of the commander definition created by Sheldon is "creative deckbuilding." While Doomsday and Storm are both established archetypes, Dan melded them into a new shell with Thrasios and Tymna that differed from many of the Buried Alive shells that have come to define many of the Thrasios builds. Tasigur also ran a host of interesting cards like Dimir Charm and Shadow of Doubt that are aimed at defeating metas that tutor a lot as well as play mostly small, utility creatures rather than the large, stompy ones found in less competitive pods.
Conclusively, I find that competitive EDH falls within the definition of commander defined by its creator and, thus, has a place within it.
Now, for those who play competitive decks, the only real rule is to gauge your playgroup. If your playgroup shows up with less competitive decks than you have, you have four options, three of which I think are viable.
The first option, the one I don't think is viable, is to stomp your meta continually. This option is not sustainable because people will not want to play with you, and EDH will stop being played. At least, this is the case in most places I've encountered. This also doesn't fall within the definition of EDH since these games are no longer interesting.
A better option is to help other players refine their decks to be more competitive. Obviously, this requires willingness on part of your playgroup, but if they do want to play better decks, then I think competitive players much foster a positive, collaborative atmosphere in which we aim to help one another achieve the most optimal forms of our decks possible.
If the playgroup is not looking to play competitively, then you can play less competitive decks in order to have fun, interactive games. You can still try for the optimal lines of play, but with a less powerful deck.
Of course, playing scaled down decks is not the interest of every competitive player, and that's okay, too. Your final viable option is to leave a playgroup and seek a new one. If you cannot find one, I advise reconsidering another of the proposed options, but I do believe that it is our responsibility to not partake in the first option. The only instance in which the first option is acceptable is when prize support is available in a tournament setting. In that scenario, you should always bring the best deck you can.
Let me know your thoughts on all of this in a CIVIL way in the comments section below.
Proxy is the least of cEDH's worries. They are still plagued by pressing "problems" such as this one, which WoTC has not yet fixed. :P
June 8, 2018 12:35 a.m.
I dunno. I've never had an issue with the above ruling. We all know about it, but it's just not in the best interest of the game for anyone to ever take those actions. Doing this sort of stuff just detracts from what makes to game enjoyable at a high level.
June 10, 2018 1:45 p.m.
I run Kaalia of the Vast currently. She's good for both. I play kind of competetively, both in group and duel. It works for them. 1v1 it's very strong, but others are strong vs me since i don't have a lot of control or removal.
October 7, 2019 9:49 p.m.
It essentially boils down to the social contract which is what the spirit of the commander format is about. cEDH is just one of the many different playstyles and preference of a group of people. It is no different than a group of people that prefers to play optimized or casual decks. Bring a cEDH deck to a casual pod? That's breaking the spirit of the format and is essentially pubstomping. Bring a casual deck to a cEDH pod? Well it's essentially not gonna be fun for the casual player or the cEDH pod which robs of the expectations and experience the pod expects.
December 26, 2019 4:27 p.m.
For me I like to build decks as competitively as possible. Some commanders are just inherently less powerful than others, but that doesn't mean you can't take something like Mina and Denn, Wildborn and make a deck that can hold it's own against some of the more powerful decks out there. I did pilot a cEDH food chain Tazri list for a while and let me tell you it was a blast. There is a certain appeal that comes from playing cEDH decks that you just can't get from playing anything else. Especially when going up against other highly powerful cEDH decks. Finding the perfect line of play is like solving a puzzle that is exhilarating when accomplished. However, after a while it did get stale and was only really worth it to play against other cEDH decks, which is not very common where I'm from haha. It's one of those things that you've got to try at least once in your life if you truly love the commander format. In conclusion, cEDH is a blast, casual commander is great, and everything in between is awesome!
April 15, 2020 7:12 a.m.
Metachemist says... #7
Dabbling in cEDH has made me a better deck builder and pilot. Hands down I have learned more in the last 8 or so months of playing cEDH that I have in years of playing casual. It's also taught me a lot of what I really like in EDH that I can bring to lower power levels, which largely meant I've bumped up the amount of interaction I run in all of my decks.
It won't be for everyone and that's fine too. But I do recommend if you access to do so, proxy up a cEDH list you like, or hell a whole set of them for you and your friends, and give them a go. It's a wild experience for sure.
June 27, 2020 5:43 p.m.
I personally am not a fan of competitive constructed MTG in any of its versions including EDH.
Combat is the draw of the game for me. And the more competitive the format gets, the game gets more and more about busted interactions between cards and less about wisely commanding your resources.
So much of CEDH comes down to your deck-list (which you probably ripped off the internet rather than brewing your self) and RNG in the form of your opening hand(s).
If you aren't playing the most powerful deck in the meta, your chances of winning are reduced considerably. If you don't draw an optimal hand, your chances of winning are reduced considerably.
I enjoy the feeling that I won. My deck brewing. My piloting of the deck. I lose a lot of that feeling when I know I'm playing a more powerful deck list than my opponents, especially when I didn't even brew it.
My opinion, Cedh is for people who want to feel like they are good at magic, when they are not. If you want to prove you are good at Magic, consistently win drafts. When someone consistently wins at draft it is because they can read a card and know the value within the context of a set and the cards they already drafted. They can optimize value out of card interactions that they have never played together before. They can read a board state and make the right decisions to find the line to victory while piloting a deck they have no prior experience with. Those are the qualities of a truly great MTG player.
December 7, 2020 4:47 p.m.
Hey, just for my clarification, the best wincon i can throw in budget tasigur cEDH currently is thassa's oracle and demonic consultation? Cast the oracle, maintain priority, then cast consultation naming a card not in my deck while ideally holding up mana for protection. Then have a back up infinite mana combo to dump into tasigur, cast thassas oracle or jace, weilder of mysteries in order to win after milling my entire deck via tasigur then drawing a card. I am trying to put together a deck with the cards i have on hand, but i need to know my win-con options because those i will have to buy. I have plenty of interaction and a few good rocks, but the best infinite mana combo i own is peregrine drake/deadeye navigator and i feel like that is too slow for the format. I know this forum is pretty old, but if anyone is still here i would love some advice. Thanks!
July 31, 2021 2:34 a.m.
cvarena21989 says... #10
My deck was hermit druid to dump library to the yard. dread return nec ooze for infinite mana. cast walking ballista and win. You can use tasigur's ability to recur your entire yard to your hand so you always have counter magic to protect your combo. I generally won on turn four. It's played teferi, breya storm, gitrog, thrasios/tymna, bloodpod. it struggled against Runic stax, well alot of stax decks actually. Especially based high budget control decks were an issues as well with leyline of the void and rest in peace ruining the plan. I had flash Hulk in it so that helped alot but with flash gone its abit more clunky. But there's plenty of ways to Tutor an ashnods or survival of the fittest for example in sultai to keep Hulk online. Could be a secondary wincon to Thessa.
July 31, 2021 9:08 a.m.
cvarena21989 says... #11
I read peligrad's comment and it got me thinking. Casual and competitive edh are two sides of the same coin. Just as he/she doesn't like to win with combos, but would rather turn creatures sideways- I in my sadistic enjoyment of magic like to stax players. Fun is now and always will be subjective. The owner of my previous lgs didn't play edh because he built the strongest decks he could and his games always became 3 v him. But he mentored me from a new player so I didn't really learn the casual aspect of it and I personally prefer it that way. I've played a combo deck as stated in my previous comment and it became stale and boring to me. Winning by the same line every game that I did win. But stax is always different for me. Cycling a decree of annihilation and watching my tapped out opponents look at me like I just slapped their ice cream out of their hands was so satisfying I WAS HOOKED! I personally hate winning by attacks I find it tedious and mundane. BUT I WOULD NEVER BRING A STAX DECK TO A CASUAL GAME! I always kept a precon deck for "the spirit of edh" games where I wouldn't play to win but to have fun even though that is not what I enjoy doing because I'd rather foster a healthy game environment than stomp a minotaur tribal deck into the ground. My fun is not more important than the other three players unless we add a "c" infront of edh. I've had people ask for input to tune their decks after playing some of mine. I've had people refuse to play me cause they know what I can bring (hence the use of precons). I use powered decks as inspiration but I always brew my own. I'm currently building a Kroxa combo deck on a 500 dollar budget to try and win at cedh tables to see if I can do it.
I think a misconception about cedh is that the players just want to win. In my experience cedh players have a high external knowledge of the decks and possible wincons that decks can hold. They want people to succeed and they want to pass their knowledge onto other players. I played a precon deck against a high tuned squirrel deck last weekend and the guy was played 3v him and was loving it. It was incredibly fun to have us all force him to play his deck to its max potential and we had a great time as he beat us into the floor.
What I think needs to change is the elitists who have high powered deck and demean new players, players on a lower budget and players who just want to play an hour long game where they can pilot their selesnya cats deck and meow/ hiss at people when they attack.
Stay spicy my friends and sorry for the incoherence and terrible grammar!
July 31, 2021 9:43 a.m.
I'll be totally honest with you cvarena21989, i legitimately dont know if there is another cEDH deck in my town. I live in a relatively small area, and the power level here is very skewed. One guy told me his deck was an 8, which for me means highly tuned borderline low tier cEDH deck, but when i played him i would have put him on avg a 5...a 6 on a good draw. My preferred way to play is around a 6-7 power level, but i want to be able to sit at any table and get some games in and be able to compete. For me 4 players piloting the same(ish) power level is much more fun than someone who just wants to curb stomp a pod. Stax is a really interesting play style, and i have some pieces for it, but i have piloted similar decks in testing online and i really don't care for them. Combo is my favorite way to win currently (subject to change in the future haha) so that is what i want to build. I have also been pretty fortunate in my pulls over the years i have been playing, since OG Innistrad. So i have some competant interaction, and a few good ramp rocks, though not many. So i wanted to build a budget(ish) tasigur deck on around an 8-9 level so i can sit at a cEDH table and experience the game play if i ever find one. It looks so fun, the interactions on the stack get insane. Also, i want a deck that will allow me to put douchebags who just want to curb stomp low power pods in their place. Went to a convention one time and hopped in a commander pod for fun, the rule zero talk had everyone saying they were around a power level 4-5, so i pulled out Atraxa (barely tuned from the pre-con, a solid 5, a 6 with a good draw) but i could always choose whether or not to play aggressively or passively so it wouldn't be an issue. Another guy pulled out a completely foiled (which was cool admittedly) Azusa deck that was at least an 8...possibly a 9 and proceded to stax and combo out turn 5 because i countered his first combo piece turn 3. People like that frustrate me, like you mentioned not because he could play at that level, but because he new he was stepping into a pod of low level players and still chose to do that. Oh damn...i typed out a novel to tell you i want to pick up more budget oriented win-cons because those are most of the pieces i dont have to build an acceptable level deck, and i dont really want to run hermit druid exclusively because i dont really want to build that mana base. Haha. I do own a Hwrmit druid, but i don't own Ballista and last i checked it was kinda pricey. I was hoping to stay around $30-$40 or less total just for the win-con pieces i am missing. Thank you for the advice!
July 31, 2021 11:36 a.m.
When I first started playing, two of the people in the group had been playing for years. They introduced me to commander. there were 3 of us who were fairly new. After we all got the hang of it, it became very competitive. It didn't start that way though. I had a daretti precon, someone got the green and someone else black precons from the same series, and the two veterans ran a marath deck and the other guy had a rafiq deck and oloro deck. They took out the absurd stuff until we decided we understood the game. Then we set about being competetive with it. Not for anything, just to say we won. The rafiq guy went back to his oloro deck. Oloro is literally unfair with the test of endurance or whatever. The marath guy put his eldrazi titans, ashnods altar and doubling season back in. The green guy made a Sliver deck - and i swear he literally got all the slivers. The black guy made a Sheoldred deck. Just that commander in general is awful.
They all had higher budgets than me so I made a Kaalia deck, since mono-red artifacts has trouble keeping up. She doesn't even need bombs to be scary. She just wins fast. We had a rule of allowing up to 2 proxies per deck, unless you wanted snowlands. You could just burn a basic land by writing "snow" on it in black sharpie and we wouldn't care. There was never a problem with it getting competetive.
A lot of how to make commander good is balancing power levels out. As long as everyone playing understands you guys are playing the game cut throat, there isn't an issue. The guy with the oloro deck had the most expansive collection. He had all the swords of xyz bullshit, a very competitive standard birthing pod deck(consider yourself lucky if you didn't play in that meta), and playsets of every fetch-land and stuff. The guy had a collection and a half. He was the only one that really had to tone himself down. However, commander was the format where he had to do that the least, actually. If we played standard or modern he had to make other decks because he had competitive stuff (pod, Urza/tron with 4 karn liberateds and 4 Old Emrakuls, and patriot burn) that won consistently on turn 4 or 5, so he would just "challenge himself" and make it like it had to be a tribal deck or "no going infinite before turn 6" or something like that. With a limited budget i personally struggled the most in standard and modern but could do the best in commander.
I think that's partly just the nature of commander. the 1 card rule makes them much less consistent, and also, in my opinion, cheaper. Picking up 1 karn silver golem or crucible of worlds and 1 of each of the fetch's that grab mountains was a lot better than a 4 card playset of each. The commanders i used certainly helped too. They're probably two of the more budget friendly. Kaalia in particular has a very high power floor. Even if you built her commander deck and she was the only legendary creature in it, it would still be a strong deck. When i first played her i had Shivian Whelp and Clockwork Angel in there.
Anyway, the point I'm getting at is that commander is absolutely able to be played as competitively as you want. You just need to make sure the people playing with you know thats how youre playing. Stomping every game isn't fun for anyone involved.
February 18, 2022 2:47 p.m.
Arvail you misrepresented my arguments. Go back and read what I said more carefully.
March 17, 2022 1:42 a.m.
So, background first: i've delved fairly heavily into 60 card constructed formats & taken a good swing at high level competitive play. I've always been aware of Commander, and have occasionally dabbled in it, however over the past 18-24 months I've immersed myself into the format & built up a fairly healthy stable of decks.
Now ostensibly I have no objection to Cedh: it is just as valid as any other way of playing Commander. However we need to touch on a few issues.
Since Commander is usually an "unorganised" format (no tournament structure behind it), you have (not so much of a responsibility, but maybe) an incentive to try & keep the decks at the table within a similar power level so as to have a more interesting and balanced game. And a responsibility to be open & honest about the general power level of the table when considering other players that may join the game. Absolutely curbstomping players who don't have the capability to compete with you is a great way to make those people not want to play with you again, & that helps nobody.
So I would say you have a social responsibility to obtain informed consent before you whip out your Cedh deck and play your absolute hardest. In the event that people don't want that, you should ideally a few decks of varying power levels on you so that you can adjust to the power level at the table.
Why is that my responsibility? Why should I have to play down to their level?
Because you can. If you're building for Cedh then you're a fairly experienced player, with access to resources that a lot of players don't have. Building a deck that's not quite so powerful is trivial. For other players, upping the power level of their decks to match yours might not even be within their means.
Tldr: Cedh? Sure.... with informed consent. And always carry a casual backup deck in case people don't want to Cedh with you. Don't try to force it.
Arvail says... #1
Yeah, it's just impossible to sustain the community without proxies. It's even worse for those looking to test or innovate. Just look at all the paper vintage tournaments around. They almost universally allow proxies.
rshistorysmuf, you're coming from a good place, but it's evident you're not super familiar with cEDH. It's pretty important to note that the guys with the toughest decks at your local gamestore typically play something very removed from what the cEDH community actually plays. The environment is totally diffent because it's inbread. It's gotten to the point where many established cEDH decks often do pretty poorly when put against tuned normal decks you see in regular EDH but do well in competitive. A great example is Blood Pod. It often gets decimated when you pit it against decent creatures, like Sun Titan or something.
The reason I bring all this up is to try to illustrate that what works for some normal EDH groups often doesn't for cEDH. It's just a different world.
June 7, 2018 8:59 a.m.