Do people not know about notion thief?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Aug. 12, 2020, 5:54 p.m. by shadow63
Edhrec.com recently updated their salt score where people vote on cards and say rather or not they make them salty. Narset, Parter of Veils made the list but Notion Thief did not. The thiefs effect is much more powerful and it has flash. I'd happily deal with narset any day or notion thief
SynergyBuild says... #3
Well, Notion Thief doesn't cost 1 less, get around creature removal, get killed by 1 damage, and also has the ability to be run in any blue deck.
August 12, 2020 6:03 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #4
Narset, Parter of Veils costs one less mana, and also immediately replaces itself and has a fairly likely chance of getting a second activation. Most of the reason people run it in non-EDH formats is that it is literally just Dig Through Time over two turns instead of costing cards from graveyard. Notion Thief is not very good without help.
Yes, Thief is better -- in the right deck. Narset can be played in any blue deck and, in most cases, probably should be.
August 12, 2020 6:03 p.m.
I think it comes down to mana restrictions. Thief is very limited to what deck it's viable for. Narset on the otherhand, is great, with any iteration of blue control.
August 12, 2020 6:06 p.m.
SynergyBuild but you cant kill notion thief by attacking it
August 12, 2020 7:21 p.m.
I'm not saying narset doesn't belong on the list but if that's on the list so should notion thief
August 12, 2020 7:22 p.m.
In non edh formats it's not really a question about which card is more troublesome to deal with, it's Narset by a mile (and then some).
In EDH specifically, particularly competitive EDH, the case is a bit different and the cards are much closer in terms of raw power level as it contributes toward a win. Narset probably still has a slight edge here as EDH, and cEDH in particular, is a format that very much revolves around resource acquisition and resource denial as the most basic fundamental principles. You can't fight through 3 people with just one piece of permission or protection, so it doesn't really matter if your win condition is something like Oracle into Consultation and you have available to use, that line of play simply won't resolve and those resources (both cards and mana) will be wasted, which affords each other player a much greater chance of winning the game. While Notion Thief is significantly better at generating a huge influx of resources to use, it's a more vulnerable card as a creature with 1 toughness (and therefore a slightly more vulnerable line of play) than the less mana intensive/restrictive Narset that immediately replaces itself (card nuetral) and serves a similar function in the resource denial role (preventing opponents from accumulating cards in hand).
While both have advantages and drawbacks in EDH, even in this format the slight edge in terms of cards that are more troublesome to deal with once they actually resolve and hit the board still goes to Narset, but only just.
August 12, 2020 7:26 p.m.
jaymc1130: It is worth mentioning though that Notion Thief is a creature and while you do see the ususal offenders in cEDH (Mana Drain, Force of Will, etc.) a lot of the countermagic run is often targetted towards shutting down non-creature spells (see Negate, Dovin's Veto, etc.) which Thief gets around (and yes, Narset dodges some of these too but less of them). In addition to that, Narset is also susceptible to Abrupt Decay while Thief dodges this too.
At the end of the day, I don't disagree with any of your points though - I think that Narset is a very strong salt contender.
I would say though that Notion Thief, while it might see less play, would still deserve the salt title.
August 12, 2020 7:47 p.m.
Absolutely. All of that is worthwhile to consider. For EDH, these two are very close in terms of the salt the may cause and the conversation about which mines more salt will mostly come down to which drawbacks/advantages are most abused in the meta each individual plays in. There could be metas where either is more or less potent than the other so they both deserve fairly equal recognition as frustrating cards to play against in the EDH format.
August 12, 2020 7:53 p.m.
Less pro-player take, more psychological explanation: Notion Thief when played correctly makes you feel like you got got. It’s usually a big flashy play in which one player gets wrecked by casting Faithless Looting or a big draw spell. It feels like the Thief player has pulled off a line of play. there can be a slight opportunity cost because you’re holding it up, like a counterspell, instead of developing your board. (Tho yes good decks will take advantage of the flexibility instead.) So when you get the big Thief steak it’s an impressive-looking move.
Narset, Parter of Veils never feels that way because she’s sorcery speed, and you can and will play her any time to get the extra card and get her ability online. It feels like free value because what you DO with Narset is -2 her but the static ability is what everyone hates; and it feels skill-less to pull off because it’s not reactive.
I’m tired and not explaining this elegantly but I think it makes total sense that Narset is the salt house, even if Thief can be a more damaging effect for players. xD
August 12, 2020 8:53 p.m.
^ this shit says "thief steak" instead of "thief steal" lmao
August 12, 2020 9:03 p.m.
To expand some on what abby315 stated from a competitive angle, Notion Thief is very much a "must respond to" line of play from an opponent. A Thief existing on the board has the potential to outright win the game if it exists for longer than the 2 seconds it takes to spend some form of interaction on it. It might seem counter intuitive that this is the "less salty" line of play, but the truth lies in the implications.
Consider for a moment a simple example where either card is played by an opponent as a means of halting another opponent's Mystic Remora triggers. The Thief will certainly put a stop to one opponent acquiring a lot of extra resources very quickly, but the potential game ending threat is that now another opponent might be acquiring even more resources very quickly (perhaps with a suspected wheel line of play) while simultaneously denying all but the first draw of the draw step to all other players as a means of finding an answer. This circumstance is so untenable that everyone will work against the Notion Thief play to ensure it either doesn't resolve or doesn't live long enough to produce a likely win for the Notion Thief player. There isn't much in the way of thought process that needs to go on, the Thief simply can't be allowed, regardless of the Mystic Remora, the choice of what to do is already made for all players in this situation as the Thief is a "must respond to" issue for everyone. There's very little in the cause/effect cycle to cause frustration or an agonizing sequence of choices because the correct choice is obvious by default.
Meanwhile, an opponent playing a Narset to deal with an opposing Mystic Remora is quite different. Narset won't shut down the Remora in the same way as the Thief, but will cause the Remora opponent a significant loss of value. Narset herself doesn't allow for lines of play that result in mass acquisition of game winning levels of resources, but might allow a line of play that puts all Narset's opponents in difficult to recover from situations (though they can be recovered from). Narset doesn't quite impact your own ability to find answers for her provided the additional card draws come at instant speed during opposing turns, and the question of whether or not the impact on the Remora opponent is worth negating at all can be confoundingly difficult to parse. Because Narset isn't a game winning "must respond to" level threat the implications are much more convoluted and each player has to consider a ton of possible angles to decide if the Narset is of benefit to them at that moment and for how long they believe she can stick around on the field before becoming a major problem. Because the Narset line of play invokes so many complicated concerns it can be a lot more frustrating to figure out how to deal with her appropriately in a competitive setting.
RNR_Gaming says... #2
Narset is less color restrictive and can fit into more decks.
August 12, 2020 6:03 p.m.