High power and below Compendium?

griffstick says... #2

This website called tappedout lol. Search decks by competitive score

August 18, 2020 8:04 p.m.

RNR_Gaming says... #3

griffstick I meant something similar to the pauper compendium. Also, I don't fully trust that meter.

August 18, 2020 8:19 p.m. Edited.

DeinoStinkus while EDH is casual, there are optimized ways to play. i.e. Run Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault plus signets/talismen to skyrocket the mana advantage. Then, there's just 'the best' ways to build each commander, including every on-color fetch, shock and OG Dual plus cards like Darksteel Forge in artifact decks.

August 18, 2020 9:03 p.m.

RNR_Gaming says... #5

DeinoStinkus - very carefully. There are commanders that almost hit the mark of being competitively viable but fall into this weird fringe area (mid-high) where only the cool kids who don't want to play a main stream commander play it at comp tables but it's too powerful to play at random casual tables. Casual is broad as its subjective to everyone; but even with less powerful commanders there exists stream lined/optimized lists - though they may not utilize the commander they're still strong.

Just wondering if any Compendiums exist for non-cedh

August 18, 2020 9:27 p.m.

enpc says... #6

RNR_Gaming: The problem with what your asking for is that optimised casual is basically just the cEDH list. Becuase even if the commadner is fringe, the deck has been optimised to be the best it can be and thus falls into the "cEDH" mantra.

I also foresee a push back on any combo decks in a competitive casual list as there are a lot of "I hate combo" EDH players. In addition to that, in a competitive-ish environment there are multiple ways to build a commander and tribal becomes a lot more of a viable strategy, which in a cEDH type environment you only really see with elves (and maybe warrior support - all of the 3 cards - in the case of Najeela).

I think you're going to struggle if you try putting a list together, as I'm guessing others have in the past if/when they tried putting lists together as your cut-offs become even more arbitrary than the cEDH list. And there will be a lot more weigh-in from a lot of really casual (and not objective) players who, either intentionally or unintentionally, set a deck building and player skill ceiling.

Personally, I find that the best way to find a good "optimised but for casual play still" list is to actually filter your search results by deck price. I know that there is also a lot of variance in that, however as a (very generalised) rule of thumb, more expensive decks will typically be more focused and have a more coherent win condition.*

*Mileage may vary

August 18, 2020 11:46 p.m.

RNR_Gaming says... #7

enpc what do you think of subsets of builds in one place; all optimized lists with different goals/primers

Essentially, its stated what the commander would excel best with builds strictly centered around that but with different criteria.

budgetless/balls to the wall/optimized
comboless/optimized
budget/optimozed

August 19, 2020 12:32 a.m.

enpc says... #8

RNR_Gaming: By all means you could. The big thing that you would want to avoid is the list just turning into a "Decks I think are cool for commander XYZ, but it's actually all commanders". because at that point you just have an unweildy mess that is basically the T/O deck search on all commander lists.

If you wanted to have a curated list (which at over 900 commanders and at even just 5 different lists for each is still 4500 decklists) then you could put something together as a reference. But my advice would be to spend some time getting your assessment criteria both correct and a bit refined otherwise you're back to the unweildy list. And the last thing you want to have to do is a giant cleanup.

It would also be worth having that criteria list available for people to easily access since we have seen time and time again poeple posting in the Commanders by Tier that "I run commander XYZ and I think it's not ranked highly enough! I play this in my competitive-ish playgroup and almost always sometimes win! So hurry up and make this commander tier 1.5, becuase I know it better than anybody else and am definitely not biased!". I mean, poeple will still post that crap regardless but if you at least have it all laid out then you can just point to the logic, rather than having to explain it over and over (and over).

August 19, 2020 2:46 a.m.

RNR_Gaming says... #9

enpc sometimes I wonder if those people who post that type of stuff have ever stepped outside of their play groups and actually sat down at a tournment with a bunch of actual grinders. Yeah...I just think solid, well thought out, consistent decks for commanders less geared for a true cedh table would be kind of neat and helpful. Some of the primers on here are excellent and they usually get buried :(

August 19, 2020 4:53 a.m.

RambIe says... #10

Before cedh took over with tiers we had
Jank: a deck that doesn't care about winning
Casual: a deck that wins @ 10+ turns
Optimized: a deck that wins @ 5+ turns
Competitive: a deck that wins turn 3 or sooner

So to me almost every legendary creature and a select few planeswalkers
Can be considered casual/optimized
If that helps build your list

August 19, 2020 8:04 a.m.

TriusMalarky says... #11

I think, to have a list of lists for each commander, you'd have to take a lot into account.

First, the commander(Kykar for this example)
Second, the variation(Kykar Anthems, Kykar Storm, Kykar Spirit Tribal)

Then you get the fun stuff:

Win Turn at optimized uninterrupted draw(absolute fastest you can win)
Average uninterrupted win turn(Average turn you can win without interruption)
Average land-drop threshold(the turn at which you tend to stop getting land drops)
Average mana at each turn(up to 15-20 for EDH)
average cards played each turn
average p/t in play on each turn

and more and more fun statistics with which you can analyze play patterns. But of course, we all know that mono blue is the best because FoW and Telepathy. Also Stasis.

August 19, 2020 9:55 a.m.

Pikobyte says... #12

Can’t speak for everyone, but I got decks for each powerlevel from below precon power (zegana with only water-artwork allowed) up to high powered decks to match the powerlevel of the table I’m sitting at.

Even for high power there are differences. My Xyris easily wins turn 4 pretty consistently if uninterrupted, but isn’t too hard to interrupt and doesn’t play a lot of removal. My Muldrotha can technically win turn 1 (with perfect hand), but never did and probably never will. It’s more of a slower control deck and likes long games with like 10+ turns and is extremely hard to interrupt.

Beside that I got some janky decks like reaper king that can do cool stuff but don’t win really often. I think having only optimized decks limits your fun and also others fun. Bringing I high power deck to a low or mid table is pubstomping and ruins the fun for other players. It also ruins the fun for you if you’re not a Spike-type player since an easy win vs some lower powered decks feels pretty bad, at least for me. I like even games where you earn your win so you can really enjoy it.

August 19, 2020 12:33 p.m.

TriusMalarky says... #13

I like optimizing within a budget -- i.e., I only spend about $1-2 max per card for edh and $5 for Pioneer/Modern. I then build the absolute best possible deck within that budget restriction. It allows for decks that, while they can hold their own, aren't ever super dominant and can always be beaten if my opponents know what they're doing. And they can be pretty good -- Mairsil is really hard to disrupt if I play it right, in a way that means only RiP can really kill me and not even that. And it can win fairly quickly, potentially t4 and can win at around t6-7 pretty easily.

August 19, 2020 12:57 p.m.

enpc says... #14

I think that this speaks to other issues you're going to have it trying to pull together a list. For some poeple, $500 is a pretty budget deck, for others, spending $100 is basically breaking the bank. And while you can have a $1000, $400 and $100 variants of a list, this then adds another 2700+ potential decks that you have to source.

This is absolutely why you're going to need to make your assumptions and selection basis very clear. You may want to have a single "budget" version of each deck at the ~$200 mark, however you'll probably want to include a statement about how not every budget is allowed for and that the onus is on the player to adapt these as required for their needs, rather than just being spoon fed.

I picked $200 as it's about the cost of the cards in a precon deck (not the shelf price of the deck istelf) with enough modifications to make the list not "a precon + 2 boosters worth of cards" (i.e. the deck actually has some variance in design).

But with all of this, another piece of advice I would give is "the more you give people, the more they'll come to demand". I see this attitude a lot with (especially new or insular) commander players where a helpful guide for how to do something gets swamped with more and more lazy and demanding comments. Ye be warned.

August 19, 2020 8:33 p.m.

RNR_Gaming says... #15

enpc jeeze that definitely got my gears turning. I'm assuming that's probably why we only get sparse updates/clarifications on the current teir list. Yeah this would be too difficult as a solo project, mega time consuming and more than likely thankless. Just thought it maybe interesting but the outcome probably wouldn't be worth the head aches.

August 20, 2020 6:38 a.m.

RambIe says... #16

For years everyone i know classified there decks as commander dependent and non dependent
dependent was tempting because of consistency,
but it was also considered a weakness because how easy it is to box a commander
non-dependent would function the same with or with out the commander
thus was viewed as much more powerful
it also allowed us to run big fat 7cmc dragon commanders at a competitive level
(because we never needed to actually cast it)

Now days, every deck is classified more by the commander then the cards inside the deck
Don't get me wrong, Commander tier's is completely logical.
because some commanders value(powerlevel) is far superior to other's
and therefor its only logical that having it in the zone is an advantage

but because of my personal experience
i always have that little voice reminding me that the commander really isn't anything other then color access.
that is why its so hard for me to be help full in threads like this

August 20, 2020 3:46 p.m.

TriusMalarky says... #17

I would classify decks as Commander and Non-Commander as well, however, if your deck can play entirely without the commander then you might as well be playing Canlander.

Most of the fun in EDH is using the commander -- I mean, if you weren't building around it, then everyone would probably just use a rainbow legend just to be able to use all colors and then build the rest of the deck to be the absolute best combo deck.

August 20, 2020 5:09 p.m.

RambIe says... #18

@TriusMalarky
You have a valid point
its not that we did not want to
its because as we progressed to be more competitive commander removal became a staple mechanic
even in today's times be it in my play group or at the store, its not all that often that powerful commanders get to stick around very long if at all.

August 20, 2020 5:40 p.m.

RambIe says... #19

P.S. not only is your point valid
but "Most of the fun in EDH is using the commander" is one of the big reasons why many people did not like playing commander competitively
jank through casual/optimized as alot more fun

August 20, 2020 5:54 p.m.

RNR_Gaming says... #20

Ramble that's subjective. Though I do believe they are the majority I cannot stomach casual play. It's not fun for me personally and I take no joy in stomping on the fun of others; unless theres prize support, I'll more than likely sit out of the jank/casual games due to them typically lacking the skill testing and interactions that help me improve as a player.

August 20, 2020 6:37 p.m.

RambIe says... #21

@RNR_Gaming True, and majority is subject to change.
cedh has gained/gaining some serous momentum

personally it depends on my mood
sometimes i just want to play to have some laughs
sometimes i want a good challenge that puts a crinkle on my brain
but if i have to pay to play and there is prizes jank/casual is out the window.

August 20, 2020 6:51 p.m.

RNR_Gaming says... #22

I honestly feel it has changed to some extent; just looking at the economy of the game people are very driven to perfect their decks or find that niche card that puts them ahead. There have been so many drastic spikes in cards because of commander and at the end of the day people do aim to win. I've only met a hand full of people can honestly lose a game with 0 salt and say that they don't care if they win or lose with any sort of sincerity. True casuals are hard to find.

August 20, 2020 7:06 p.m.

TriusMalarky says... #23

RNR_Gaming, you have not lived anywhere near me. 100% of my MtG playing friends are true casuals, and I am one of a small minority of semi-competitive players within 20-30 miles of my LGS.

August 20, 2020 11:03 p.m.

RNR_Gaming says... #24

TriusMalarky - I dont just play at my store and I use to travel for events pre pandemic/ltr and people travel to the shop I play at consistently for events though theres been a down tic recently. I have faced off with a variety of players. The closest I've found to true casuals were broke college students but even they wanted to beat their friends :]

August 20, 2020 11:37 p.m.

RambIe says... #25

@RNR_Gaming
"I've only met a hand full of people can honestly lose a game with 0 salt"
"True casuals are hard to find."

HAHA OMFG So True!!

i am not speaking for everyone, only speaking of personal experience
The love of the game drives to improve
improving leads to competitive play
competitive play leads to grinding
grinding leads to routine
routine falls out of love for the game

causal commander is the break in between the grind
the place were you could play the cards you love but lost (rotation/ban)
the place that you could be so powerful, that it took 3 people to team against you to stand a chance!
it's the place that rekindles that lost spark

for me commander over took the grind
because how i felt at the end of the night
a night of commander always lead to crazy politics and laughing
and i felt so good when it was all over with.

but yes, even after years that competitive nature in me still sneaks out sometimes even in a casual game
and we have to get a vacuum to suck up all the salt

August 21, 2020 7:44 a.m.

TriusMalarky says... #26

RNR_Gaming fair. I live in a place with 3 game stores and AFAIK only one has a decent MtG playgroup, mostly because the other two have little support and grumpy employees.

And 3 is a lot given every other town has maybe one, and that's on the high end. It's a weird area, half city half farm.

Also, these friends are people who spend 100x more than me -- multiple boxes to my occasional handful of singles, which are always about $1 apiece -- and play almost exclusively jank EDH and Dark Ritual-fueled casual decks. I can beat any one of them with $30. And these are people who've been playing longer, have more cards and better collections(one has multiple FoW, a damaged Trop, and a Tarn and that's just the beginning). And they only really get 'salty' when I play slow grindy control that lasts an hour, which I don't play anymore because it bored me.

DeinoStinkus Lucky. I stopped playing largely because of all the angry people. I have a few experiences:

One guy ragequit because I asked him not to track his creature's total P/T and just track counters.
One guy quit right after a not-very-legal 'counter' to me casting Mind Grind for 500 -- even if his counter worked, I still could have killed him. I had infinite mana and my entire deck in my hand and counterspells and Elixir of Immortality, but he didn't know that and just activated his weird card, declared himself the winner, and left.
One guy ragequit because his definition of 'budget' wasn't the same as mine. I mean, he asked for 'budget modern', so I brought my deck that was literally $10 except I added some higher quality lands in to smooth it out as I playtested it. It was maybe $200 at absolute max, and probably only about $100. When he asked the chat, they all said $200 was about budget for modern. He was very angry.
I joined after a while and wasn't used to the controls anymore and, since it's a digital interface and I'm used to videogames, I didn't always remember to allow for time before I did stuff. Guy quit halfway through the match even though it is so easy to put a card back and shuffle the deck -- after multiple apologies. Now, I probably deserved that one, but it is more salt.

I'm not salty about the salt tho. Also I can't find any Modern games, I think that's cos my internet kept crashing and I ended up being AFK for every other game a year or two ago and all the modern players blocked me.